Hi all

I have been looking on this and other forums at the TV provision that Polaris World (PW) are providing and it seems with this and other issues (security shutters, Broadband, Fixtures & Fittings, Maintenance charges, the list goes on) PW are just moving the goalpost as they wish because all these thing are not in your contract so you are not able to prove what is and isn’t to be included.

For example:

I was told that we would have A TV Package provided for a small one off charge and no monthly subscription and it would include the full Sky package.

I was told we would have security shutters on doors and windows.

I was told in Sep 07 Maintenance charge would be in line with that charged at other PW complexes and presently it was about 70 Euros a month.

I could go on.

I was told all these things and more both by PW representatives and by in my case Parador representative, I asked a PW Rep how I new all these thing would be provided and could I have them in writing. I was told this was not possible and you just have to trust us to provide the things we say we will and was assured they are not in the game of making false promises.

Well I believe thing you are promised from sales people and other official representatives are just as much part of your contract as the contract itself (Verbal contract).

The problem is proving it?

Well on other PW complexes some people are starting to get themselves organised into action groups to pressure PW into providing things as promised.

We should be doing the same by:

Properly forming a pressure group.

Raising awareness of its existence.

Listing the issues of concern.

Collating our verbal evidence.

Pressuring PW to provide the thing it told us would be provided.

Has anyone any experience of this sort of thing particularly any of you with legal background or who have property on other PW Complexes.

Any thoughts or comments welcome.

My belief is moaning doesn’t work but action can.

Regards

Phil

Rather than a action group maybe we should think about setting up an 'Owner Association' as they have done on La Torre.

As I believe eventually we will want to take care of our own community and be in charge of spending budgets etc.

If we was to get something off the ground now we would be well ahead of the game to address any issues that are sure to arise like ones you mention.

After suffering from escalating community charges, the community took over the running of La Torre and voted out the administrators last week.

More info can be found here http://www.polarisworld.uk.net/

Regards

Dan

This message was last edited by danseex on 4/14/2008.

Phil,

I share your concerns - both with regard to assurances/claims made by Polaris World and Parador.  We have purchased through Parador as well.   I am legally qualified, working in the legal profession in the UK and whilst contract law is not one of my areas of specialism, I do have some knowledge and certainly have links to those that do!

My concerns started a while ago with the air conditioning - when we went on our inspection trip and viewed the show apartment at La Torre in September 2006, I specifically asked whether air conditioning was included and was told "yes".   I asked about the vanity unit in the bathroom and was told that there would be some sort of vanity unit/basin although it may be slightly different from those at La Torre as they tended to instal something different on each resort.  I dread walking into the bathroom of my new apartment to see that hideous orange cupboard which appeared in one of the show apartments!!   I also asked about the drawers in the bottom of the wardrobes - again I was told that these were included.  Again, as with the shutters/blinds, we were told that they would be included.

With regard to the TV/Sky/Internet access, when we first made enquiries with Polaris World, we received a series of promotional DVDs, one of which referred to the provision of TV/Sky/Internet/Telephone access being included in  all properties.

Then there is the concern about what has happened to the Foro for the Jardines apartments - if this is to be moved, or not built at all, then that is a fairly major change to the basis on which most of us have purchased.  It may be that the Foro is still to be built, but the difficulty we have is getting accurate and reliable information.

I think it is probably fair to say that we are all looking forward to completing our purchases, and that it is a very exciting time.  I have no doubt that, based on the completed resorts, Condado will be a fabulous place when it is finished.  However, I share Phil's view that Polaris World seem to be moving the goalposts and at what is already a costly time, we are all finding that we are having to spend more and more money on things that we expected to be included in the price. 

I agree that It is certainly worth considering the setting up of some kind of group - it seems to be producing results at La Torre and is probably in the interests of everyone buying at Condado. 

 

Hi

I think that sounds a really good idea just let us know what we can do.

Thanks Debbie

Hi

I think that sounds a really good idea just let us know what we can do.

Thanks Debbie

This message was last edited by debbiecable05090804 on 4/14/2008.

Hi!

Re: Phils comments!

Yes I agree with Phil!

We were also told that shutters would be installed for security and were also told that as long as we bought our own flat screen T.V , Polaris would do the rest and there was definately no mention of charges/rental fees!!!

We are also sure that there was no mention of us having to put in our own aircon, otherwise we would have asked how much it would would cost? 

Another thing that has hit us is that we were told that after completion Polaris would rent our apartment for us and that the rental would guarantee our monthly mortgage re-payments, but have now realised that the golf courses won't be up and running for about 2 years, so how are they going to rent our apartment for us?.

We have contacted our solicitor and Dream Coast about this promise and will get back to you when we have had a reply!

None of us know exactly what we will get until we walk round the property when we snag.

We went through an agent and were told the spec for the apartments in La Torre would be a typical spec, I assume they were told that from Polaris. Whether or not different agents have told people different facts to get the sal

From day one we were told that the air con would only be pre-installed ducting as La Torre and Polaris literature/contracts. The actual air-con units were down to ourselves. 

Also any tv package would be chargeable depending on what people wanted. Polaris's website show fees etc depending on the package, this says that there is still the option of taking a basic package for 400€, don't know if this has recently changed to a monthly fee?

In the bathroom, we are disappointed that there isn't a vanity unit. What we get on handover is a basic sink and pedestal. Polaris will gladly fit one for you for many euros. Also the lack of drawers within the wardrobe is also another disappointing Polaris cost saving

As far as the Faro is concerned we were over last week and all sales reps are still saying that it is going to be there but will take a couple of years too complete, there is going to be a tempoary supermarket, bar & resteraunt where phase 2 Naranjos is going to be located in 2 or 3 months. As we left via Alicante airport, Polaris have their own kiosk in duty free, we picked up the latest Condado brochure which shows the latest masterplan. This shows both the Faro & Agora town centres as well as the clubhouse. Outside the perimeter fence thay are now showing a couple of large buildings next to the sports fields of which they are not sure what they are going to be at present but possibly hospitals/schools etc as they have to give something back to the local community due to the size of the development. These along with fire stations will need to be provided in order to complete properties on bears best side of the resort. 

The Isla is up to at least 1st floor level and they are digging out the lake around where the Oasis is going to be, the Oasis is supposed to be getting started in June. The sports area (Jardin 6) is also well underway with the social club/gym being constructed.

I agree that in time we will need some sort of community/action group but until we see what we actually are getting there's not much that could be done at the moment.

I think some of these things are just part and parcel of being on a new resort and buying off plan. I remember being told that residents at La Torre hadnt expected a supermarket right opposite their villa's but it was 'for the greater good'. We viewed at La Torre and had similar information to Mike Hardy- infact we were also told the size of the Jardines apartment would be similar to the la Torre apartment but of course it isnt. We were also told all residents would get a free water cooler! We viewed with a Polaris representative. People on the forum 12 months ago may recall we were disappointed to find that there is likely to be a play area in each garden (which is great not a problem but had Polaris told us that we may have selected an apartment in a different part of the garden) We just would have preferred not to be right opposite it- we were told there would be open space at one end or a covered seating area except in Jardines 5 and 6 (now 7) but by the time we'd signed on the dotted line a decision had already been made about that and play areas will probably appear in all Jardines in due course.

Initially we haven't been concerned too much about renting our property but with time have come to see that we may have to as costs are certainly rising above what we anticipated in 2007- but its true its going to be a resort in its infancy and whilst the Jardines are going to be excellent everything else is going to take time which may just restrict the interest of rentees for a while. We have to be thankful that Polaris seem to be quite quick in their building process because if they ever build acros the back of Jardines we'll all want it to be done quickly!! Maybe they wont bother.

I think Polaris will only say that these are the difficulties that arise from buying off plan- things change. Look what they are offering with the El Mirador 3 bed, you have an option of it being a 2 bed. Our washing machines aren't on the roof of the two bed and we havent got a nice vanity unit in the bathroom (pity) and there's no chest of drawers in the wardrobe (a further pity as space is tight in the second bedoom) What remains, we like alot though

When we went in February our guide pointed out areas past Oasis and La Isla designated for a school and a Medical centre

 

I think this is an excellent idea. Please keep us posted on any future developements. We`re in.!!

Andy

Hi all,

          I agree with Phil and Payton in starting some sort of pressure group, it seems that most of us have been told the same things by polaris reps and our own reps. When we visited La Torre we asked about air con, vanity unit in the bathroom, drawers in the cupboards and water cooler and were told that we would have all these in our apartment. We also asked our agent, villacashback, about the shutters/blinds, including electric shutters over the patio doors, he asked the polaris rep who then phoned the head offices while we stood in the show apartment to ask the question, the reply was that we would get these items, i was impressed with this especially the electric shutters.

         On our way back to the polaris offices we then asked about maintenance costs and we were also told approx. 70euro's/month. If we get as many people as possible to tell their inspection stories then we can start to build up some sort of case against polaris.

                                                 Regards,

                                                             Chris and Tracey. 

Are we to expect the community charge to be more than 70 euro's?. Thats around the figure we had been told- I believe La Torre residents have only started to pay theirs recently but I'm not sure how much. To be frank my husband recalls the agent said it was likely to be around £35 to £50 but that wouldnt be clear until everything was up and running. It covers gardening, pool maintentance, painting the apartments, security and general maintenance. I believe if individual Jardines want pool furniture and additional play equipment they have to club together for that.

Does anyone know why Polaris have moved away from the idea of shutters on the ground floor patio doors. We recall being told that the reason they dont fit the traditional wrought iron grills to the windows is because its not needed as security is so good- but windows are one thing, fully opening doors are another.

Have to say that the couple of times I have emailed Polaris with queries I have had no reply. I asked them about the water cooler and the bathroom cabinet  and bath screen at different times- fortunately the forum helped out there. In February our guide around the show houses clearly gave the impression that the apartments would have table style bathroom vanities with colours selected randomly- maybe its just been a translation thing. A week or so later ailmnoty went and was told we'd get the traditional white sink and pedestal. I find the fact that we all seem to get slightly different information most irratating and I think its clear many of us were told the same things which have since turned out not to be accurate- they could at least address those.

Isn't it weird that all these things have changed for the benefit of PW, not us. Maybe if they changed the goal posts slightly on these things I'd understand but obviously all the Agents have been briefed on the spec' and then PW have reduced the spec' to save themselves a lot of money. To each of us some of the points are small(ish) but overall it's a small fortune.

Don't get me wrong. If I was asked if I think I've done the right thing, buying a PW property......Yes!!

Nevertheless....Pressure Group...We're in!!!

Iain

heres something that might help. ive copied it from roda golf forum. its about some complaint book that you can request.have a look.

Ace.

I have actually completed more tha 15 of these forms and the comments made by RODA regarding the language and solicitor present are absolute rubbish

The form has to be freely given, has to be completed in their offices, and can be completed in English or Spanish, you do not need a lawyer and, if they refuse to supply one, on the spot, you can call the Police and they can be fined up to €6000

Comments form another site

Comments from another website

Every municipality in Spain has a public office dedicated to informing you, the consumer, regarding your rights and responsibilities in the case you should have any doubts. The offices are known as "OMIC", which stands for "Oficina Municipal de Información al Consumidor". Ask at the town hall to find out where yours is located.

Among the questions these offices deal with are those having to do with contracts, guarantees and transactions between shop owners and clients. It is best to bring all receipts and paperwork with you when you approach this office as the advisor assigned to you will usually be happy to go over everything with you. He or she will also need a paper trail in order to point you in the direction of justice should that be necessary.

The department that deals with these compliants is OMIC based at the Town Hall in San Javier and the investigate things for you and you can fill the form in there as well

They all speak English and are very helpfull and their details are

OMIC San Javier

Dirección: Glorieta García Alix, I

Localidad: San Javier

Teléfono 1: 968 195 110

_______________________

Roy Howitt

InspectaHomeSpain

www.inspectaHomeSpain.com

e-mail inspectionseos@inspectahomespain.com

This message was last edited by ace on 4/15/2008.

Having looked at the specs on the Polaris site today and seen that the bathroom clearly talksabout only white products and taps being standard I think that there may have been some misunderstanding about one or two things - not all- but maybe there's a case for the agents saying you 'can' have these things in your apartment rather than you'will' and what we/I have interpereted that to be. However we were most definately told there's be a chest of drawers in the wardrobes and whilst that may seem a minor item it costs money to replace, as will fitting some sort of cupboard in the bathroom ( plus eventually getting an electrician and a heated towel rail). But we are pleased overall with the product, lets hope the Foro doesnt take ages to complete.

Just spoken to Polaris re a few points.

As previously mentioned no changes are allowed before completion. i asked about extractor fan in the bathroom and was told that it would be normal to include a fan where there were no windows (as will be the case for most of us).

Satellite TV will be set up in the next couple of months by Telefonica and we will get a basic package, but if you bring your skyplus or sky box and card over it will be set up to receive everything assuming you have an account with Sky in the UK.

I am in block 10 of phase one penthouses and  told them I didn't want a hedge at the bottom of the garden blocking my view of the course - I would prefer a colourful planted border as shown in the brochures. I was told they probably wouldn't be the same as the Jardines but no guarantee.

Completion of the penthouses is anticipated October/November 2008.

Asked why there were no construction photos of the penthouses since January and was told partly constructed buildings didn't show them at their best so I don't hold out much hope of further photos for a while. Had nothing in photos from Parador on their practically non existent web site. I think I've been ripped off by them to the tune of 750 euros!

The penthouses are quite visible from the road so why they can't get a camera from Argos and zoom in I don't know! Any photos you guys who are out there can take would be much appreciated.

Going to the 'Friends of Polaris' night at the Metropole in Leeds on 24th April - anyone else going?

Barry & Sue Worksop

Yes we are going to the Polaris evening in Leeds on 24th April - see you there!  We are going to Spain on 31st May to complete on 3rd June so will try and get some photos of your apartments for you.  We had an e-mail from Parador yesterday with some more up to date photos - they had obviously been taken from the road, through the wire fence, so you might get something from them shortly.  I am reserving judgment on the Parador Owners' Club fee at the moment - so far not particularly impressed but I am hoping they will excel themselves when it comes to "holding our hands" through the completion process!  Watch this space!

I suppose we will all have a better idea what is and is not included when the first few completions have taken place - everyone seems to be of the same view overall though - pleased that we purchased with Polaris and hopeful that the resort will be fabulous within the next few years.

Debbie and Paul

 

Hi all

As I started this one and its been up a couple of days, if you don’t mined I will make some comments on the posts so far and some suggestions of a possible way forward for you all to think about?

The posts so far have made interesting reading:

In response to my post:

Dan suggested we should be setting up an ‘Owners Association’ instead of a Pressure Group and suggests we look at the way La Torre have gone. I looked at the link Dan suggested being http://www.polarisworld.uk.net/ and it made very interesting reading, in the long term I agree this is the way we may well wish to go, however I don’t think we would be able progress this at the moment as this sort of association would I suspect require a majority of the residents to vote in favour and even though hundred of people look and contribute to this forum we are just a small part of the numbers that will be owners at Condado, this which also would make me think that Condado would possibly need to have more than one association due to the eventual size of the development?

Payton in his post informs us that he is legally qualified which would be a helpful source of legal information albeit based on English Law I presume but it’s a starting point. Interestingly and this is being repeated in other posts he echoes the way the sales pitch went during the inspection visits, detail may differ slightly but the main content is very similar which would ultimately be the main thrust of our argument. I would be very interested to no if the DVD you mention would provide any strong evidence to support the issue. I would also agree with his comments about the positive aspect of the choices we have made by buying at Condado and that long term we will own our homes in a fabulous community and area.

Debbie says it’s a good idea to start a pressure group, I am sure this is her opinion as she told us three times JOKING SORRY, joking apart thanks for your support I presume you think it’s a good idea, as your experience is similar to the others stated? PS If your username is your personal email addresses not sure that is a good idea for your personal Internet security?

Again Pamingham provides similar experiences in the way she was sold and states she has asked her Solicitor about this, I look forward to hearing the response she gets back although I suspect that as one person on her own the solicitor will say not much they can do but you never know.

Mike informs us quite properly that we don’t know exactly what we will get until we walk round the property and do the snagging, in the main he is correct albeit a pretty good picture is developing. I to like Mike was shown around La Torre and told to expect that would be the typical specification of the property I would buy and that the air con was pre installation only which is fine, I then don’t have a right to expect to be given something I wasn’t told would be installed and wont be putting my name on any list that says I was but for those that believe they were told air con was included then we should pool any evidence they have (who, when, where and if possible physical evidence) to prove they should receive this. I would be putting my name to those items I was told I would receive. Mike also makes a good point about finding out what has been provided when we do the snagging, as this will be, I think, our first official option to comment on that we are being provided, I would be putting on the snagging list those things not provided you where expecting to see, for example air con, if you were told you would have this, at least you are then stating you claim at the earliest opportunity? For me the benefit of starting something now is establishing the framework for what we will do next?

JHMurcia reports similar experience in her two posts but seems to be more philosophical about it, which is fine if you are comfortable with it, I agree with her if she is saying its not worth getting upset about as in the long term this will all pale into insignificance, but I would rather look back and think ether, I did my best, or even better, I along with the other owners made them provide those thing their representatives had informed us we would have. JH also tells us in her last post that PW web site provides a spec for the bathroom, this would be fine if this has always been on the website and the official representative when selling us the property hadn’t told you different.

Iain makes the point how strange it is that all the changes are one way, perhaps we are supposed to think less is more, but I agree with him when he says he believes he has done the right thing buy buying, I just whish the euro rate was better but that’s another post.

Ace has put some information up about Complaints Books and Public Office for Consumer Rights, this is very interesting and I for one will be asking about these when I go out to Spain at the beginning of May to see progress, I will let you know what I fined out if someone hasn’t done so first.

I think that covers my observations on the posts so far, if I have misrepresented anyone’s view I apologise please feel free to put me right. So where can we go now well that’s up to you?

I would suggest the way forward would be, but this is just my personal opinion:

First if you have one talk to your legal advisers and then at the relevant time you should register your complaint with PW and providing copies to your legal adviser and selling agent where relevant. Then collate all the evidence to support your claim as mentioned previously.

This is a big complex and we are spread all over the areas being sold so far, but this could give us an advantage, it is possible we as the original group could produce a questioner with a covering letter, then one or two people in each Jardin be responsible for distributing it to new owners as they take possession, this would spred the work and help to show who was promised what and by whom and when, along with the evidence they may have, it would also offer us the opportunity to invite then to join the group. This is just a suggestion. It is also possible based on where we live now, to set up local groups to brainstorm ideas on the way forward, these could be done by identifying a place convenient for a group being able to get to (Pub, Café etc) in a suitable geographical area to where you are (London, Northwest, Murcia or wherever), worst case scenario is we get to meet and put faces to names, hay these are just opening suggestions just of the top of my head, feel free to tell me to shut up. Or maybe you think it’s not worth the effort its up to you???

Regards

Phil

Hello all,

                Very good post from Phil there. Lot of common sense written and the old saying 'strenght in numbers' will certainly come into play as things develop on Condado. The big advantage of being a forum member is that you can be party to the information relating to everyone elses experiences. We can also benefit from the experiences of La Torre owners who have been united through similar forums. I have been particularly interested in posts written by  David Moore on the Polaris World Forum. He seems to have been very instrumental, initially with a few others, to get the ball up and rolling and formation of the La Torre owners association. This arrangement is now looking like it will bring positive improvements to the way that community is to be run.

On the subject of mis-representation, I think it is fairly common that we were all promised certain things as being standard in our properties. We all took this in good faith having being told that this was the way of things with off-plan purchases and things can and usually do change from the initial plans. My interpretation of this was that layouts of the overall site, garden layouts, finer detail in finishing etc may be subject to minor changes. Changes in individual properties internal specification with a product of equal or better - certainly not omitting totally something that was verbally promised. Had we all been hard-nosed experienced property developers we may well have asked for a complete re-write of the contract that was sent to us all. When you look at it with hindsight you could say the numerous vague paragraphs leave you wide open for exploitation. I firmly believe that this is not the intention of Polaris having witnessed the (nearly) finished product during a stay at La Torre last Autumn.

 Everyone feels the pinch during a downturn, Polaris included, and what we need to be carefull of is that we do not get anything less than we were originally promised. We are paying our legal representatives and particularly our agents a handsome commission and we have to ensure that they in turn give us value for money. 'A fair day's work for a fair day's' pay'. I would have to agree with those who are now doubting the value of the Parador owners 'service' - I myself purchased through Parador but did not see myself getting value for the 750 euro  'taxi-fare' to get me from A to B and declined that offer. The evidence relayed in these forums justifys that decision. The best source of information by far comes from those already out in Murcia and the likes of Eye on Spain which is an excellent vehicle for transfer of information.

I will watch the postings with interest and contribute further to anything that may add value to our interests as a group.

 

Will Elliott.

Think I have become philosophical about things that aren't quite as I expected- have felt quite annoyed at various stages but having read many threads on the general site I'd come to see that some of these facts seem to be par for the course when you buy off plan- as there's no real product for you to see. In the early days one thing in particular was in danger of totally spoiling the whole purchase. So I/we had to come to terms with that- otherwise what's the point?

However I do think many of us were told certain things and no one has imagined them- they're just not written down. One example is that right up to mid February we all expected the bathroom to have one cabinet or other and until we visited the show house we thought there would be drawers in the wardrobes- we havent all made a mistake. In fact some of us were worried we might end up with that orange cupboard in the bathroom!!  In the great scheme of things these are smallish things but they'll cost us money.

I'm sure we'll want to be part of a residents committee or association