The Bargain Property Experiment

Roberto, allow me add one word, 'ideal' as in I know my ideal location to within 1/4 mile.
However I'm open to suggestions within a 3 or 4 mile radius.
I hope this helps as I wouldn't want you agents to get stuck on your transitive and intransitive's!
Definitely time for a drink.

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Roberto - a lot of Spanish are out to buy but we have failed on three getting them the mortgage they need. Also a totally legit Russian couple, again offered less than they should reasonably be expected to get. So yes, the problem is also with the jittery banks.

Personally there is a lot of movement in the market, but its getting the 2 parties together at an agreed price.

Goos example. Lady bought a property 18 months ago for 238,000 euros. Mrtgage only 150k. Needs to sell. Stupidly she didnt take our advise last year, we had buyer at 170k and she took a supposedly higher offer from the person holding her keys!!! I knew it didnt stack up but hey ho - no telling people is there!

Yes it fell through, she came back to us. Found buyer at same price BUT they wanted costs included. At 238k it would have worked out. Bank took nearly 4 months to approve them, finally done and valuation was instructed. As the developer is dropping his prices cos he cant sell, the valuer took the lowest price as a comparison and put our ladys val at 203,000 euros! 35k under the last one. So deal couldnt happen.

She is now trying to sell for mortge price, but still the figures wont add up - and now the developer has dropped a corner apartment to 170,000 euros!!

Stuffed on this one and all that time money and effort wasted. She isnt the only one either. The Spanish do expect to pay a lot less, but then most of them know their own market, so, playing Devils advocate, are they truly that out in price??

Buying the right property for the right prioce is only a matter of time n my poinion, as I think by the end of the year there will be too much choice, not too little. Yes some compromises may need to be made, but on the whole, people will be able to get what they want - and probably from bank stocks!

Off out now to show a villa (really a detached house on plot) with a val of 750k, with tag on it of 550k and I know it will go for around the 490k mark!! - sorry DiJit, just not in your area otherwise you know I would have called you!

Have a good day all, and remember, be careful out there!

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guys,

yes its about getting a bargain and every property in Spain has a deal on it, so now you need to look at other things, ie how is the community run, how many properties are for sale, is my property likely to increase in value if its on a community that lacks wow factor as nobody pays their community fees, burgularies are rife and nobody can be bothered to organise things to make it a nice place to live or visit.....there are a lot of lemons out there in spain and not just on the trees!!!!

i'm not an agent, but if you want to take a look at what a well run and well kept community looks like take a look at our community website on www.golfgardensmiraflores.co.uk it will give you something to compare to and then think, is it really the deal of a lifetime.....

there are only two or three apts available on our community of 60 apartments, which i think says a lot and properties are selling as well. 3 sold since christmas, we feel that this is due to the community having a wow factor when you walk in

Good house hunting and remember its not just about how cheap it is, its what comes as the rest of the package if you are not there all the time.

Take care its dangerous out there 

This message was last edited by promedia on 4/24/2008.

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Sorry Promedia but I'm not looking for a bargain. Nice idea but I'm a realist I simply want reasonable value for money. The yardstick is €/m2 measured against the cost of a new build which is currently €1000/m2 excluding plot costs.

I take it as a given and have handily enough a pair of eyes which allow me to gauge the state of a community.

Many years in the security industry and a willingness to spend on the right tools means burglars find my properties a bit of a handful.

I don't want an apartment but nice plug for yours. Why do I think you are hoping to sell an apartment in the near future?

The general standard of construction is very questionable. We visited a 2 year old duplex with visible cracks I could put my fingers in, the door frames which were bowed at the top preventing the doors from closing. I also saw a villa with cracks that my arm fitted inside. What did they have in common? Both agents told me not to worry this was normal in Spain.
Pricing? In the 3 to 4 thousand Euro per square metre range.
My input to this thread was to point out that these agents were destroying their own livelihoods with their dishonesty and fooling nobody.

I think much of what I have written here is coming to pass. In reality I confidently predict it will get much worse before it hits bottom.
We, as buyers, are coasting till 2009 as that will be when the truth will permeate the skulls of those dreaming sellers whose prices are still wired to the moon.

This message was last edited by DiJit on 4/25/2008.

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Hi guys

Wrong! I am a potential normal buyer living here for a year to see whats what - I have cash in the bank but with the downturn in the euro and having looked at the quality of property here - it look like we may be going back.  I currently rent a beachside apartment (for the first time) and what an education- the soundproofing in these places is abominable, the aircon is a almost a communal system as we can hear everyother apartments when used- we know when they all take showers etc use the washer/dishwasher- above and beyond the exepected scraping here and there.
And to the point of the moan.....an equivalent property on the same complex is up for sale at an unbelievable 460k (euro)and this is a smallish complex- only 5 apartments per block ! 460K!!! What a joke.  Prior to this we rented a villa for a couple of months - apparently the owner bought it last year for around 700k - it too was a joke - it had major damp problems (discovered by us the first winter tennants) - water actually came up thru the floor!

Now having learned the drawbacks of an apartment we look to townhouses but with the exchange rate are outpriced still.  And yes there is too much choice when we look on websites - we've also thought about re-possesions but can't seem to find any information as to listings so if you have any info to share we would be interested.  we also believe that a new build might be a way to go but again there are so many developers how do you get round them all - any honest advice on organised bargain hunting gratefully received.

We have just moved from Aberdeen where property prices are also truly ridiculous but you'd still get a lot more than this for 460k (minus the sun of course).  

Anyway your comments have all been v.interesting and I'll keep looking for value for money

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Hi Sands - I agree with all you say. We live in san pedro beachside too and after a few years you do get used to the noise!!!

Townhouses are the best but if people bought a few years ago and can afford to hang on to them, then they will do so - its only the ones caught financially who have to cut and run

At the moment these guys are in the cheaper areas, Riviera and Casares being the main areas. Marbella in general will hold its price - there will be the odd ones having to drop, but the majority wont.

Also, if you are looking for a home as opposed to any property, then guarantee the one you fall in love with wont accept the offer!

Probably wise to keep looking and hope for the best

Good luck

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Sands,

Nice to discover a voice of truth from the trenches so too speak.

The building standard is crap as it mainly has been thrown up to meet the demands of an easy market where buyers are looking at the sun and beach with little or no application of brains and common sense. Much of what is built will not be standing in 25 years. Strange as one wing of my house in Glasgow was built in 1701 and another wing was built in 1853. Both are still standing although I did refurbished them, mainly pointing. Now that to me is an investible structure which will last another 307 years.

Having had dealings with about 15 agents plus been approached by at least that number again, I have only found one who is truthful, realistic and in whom I trust. I will pm you the contact details after obtaining their permission.

FWIW the next crisis to hit will be September on, when airlines forward buying of avgas runs out and they re-price accordingly. Budgets flights are forecast to double if not triple in price.

We have decided to rent for this winter with the intention of buying 2nd. half of 09 or early 2010 as, whilst we are seeing sellers starting to move on price, they just don't come close to representing value for money. Spain only has distance in its favour as it is now greatly overpriced when comparing property and cost of living prices to the Caribbean.

Keep us posted as to how you end up please.


This message was last edited by DiJit on 6/2/2008.

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Gillespie can you ave a word with the owner in Mazarron. I will buy it from him /her.

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Alarmred, can you believe I posted that in April 2007.  I think if you bought it for that price now you would feel robbed as the market has plummeted since then.

Maybe those owners would be happy for €198,000.

If you bought off-plan in 2001 there is a good chance (assuming it was ever built) that you would be needing these guys to take it off your hands at any price - www.contracts4trade.com

Oh well, maybe Justin need to create a forum for ex-agents - or is he doing it already

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I was wondering what Alamred's post meant! I hadn't thought to scroll back over a year ago to the original post on this thread.

Gillespie, a year ago you described the property in question thus: " It was obvious this was a quality house...." and added that it was in a very desirable location. And this is a 4 bed villa with 1000 sq mts of land. Do you really think it would be hard to sell at less than 200k? Perhaps it wasn't such quality after all, or the location wasn't so desirable? Or else, prices there are just seriously out of whack with this part of the country!

Reviving the age old debate of asking price versus actual selling price: it seems to me that, at least in my area, asking prices have finally started to drop noticeably, but I'm not convinced that selling prices necessarily are doing likewise. That's not to say that anything is selling, because the market is as dead here as anywhere. But, I don't believe that any of the properties whose asking prices have dropped, ever sold for anything like the original asking price. For example, if a 2/2 apt which was offered for sale at 300k a year ago, is now offered at 250K, it would appear the price has dropped. But if no identical apt in the same block ever sold for more than 200k in the last 5 years, perhaps asking 250k is a bit optomistic? I know this subject has been done to death, but it was the suggestion of the above mentioned property for less than 200k that got me thinking again - where are all the supposed bargains?? Believe me, I'm keeping a watchful eye open, but so far have not found anything around here to blow me away! 

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My apologies Roberto.  My flipant reply to Alamred was an exaggerated knock at the way prices are dropping. Although I must congratulate myself at the foresightedness of my post 14 months ago

In all honesty, the said villa would still fetch 450,000€ and 600,000€ in a boom, even the Spanish would pay that as the location is good.

As is always said, the best locations will suffer least.during a slump.

I don´t think prices have bottomed yet, I´m sure that will happen over Christmas and early new year.  I´m certain I won´t be an Estate Agent by then as I cannot get local developers to pay me.

After nearly 9 years in the job, the lure of a new  business idea is nearing reality.  I don´t like the type of clients that are walking in, they are not genuine anymore, I can´t fullfill peoples dream of a Spanish lifestyle anymore because that isn´t what todays buyers want.  They want a bargain, they want to make a profit at someone elses expense.  The pleasure has gone.  When I take people to a beautiful house with a wonderful sea view, the hard nosed buyer askes how much the owner is loseing instead of what are the neighbours like?  It all seems immoral and empty.

Gripe over. We have a Grand Prix to look forward to this weekend

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hi guys

Sorry gillespie but perhaps like ourselves some are genuine and yes it is human nature to look for a bargain.- I do feel sorry for those who have to cut and run but our timing to come here and sell up was pretty tragic also since our buying power is down so much because of the euro so if looking at repos for example is a bad thing then I'm bad! But a bargain at auction may be our only way to stay here!  But it would stil have to be value for money and not some trash.

RIxxi I saw the auction link on your message and had a look - are these the properties you referred to earlier when you said you were advertising for the banks?  Your can see from the auction history that even sales there are not great but at least we have found one bit of info about auctions!

We asked our bank manager about auctions and he said they had some porperties in ditress but when we asked how and when they went to auction he kind of backed up and said it was to do with the courts and very complicated. So no joy there as how to find any more - I have also googled myself out rying to find auction info.  Other half reckoned he didn;t want to give us the info cos he would rather try and sell us a mortgage - 

anyone able to advise on the reposession system here and where you can find out what is coming on the market ?  Are there any apartments out here that are actually of superior build?  I'm happy as i said for any advice from those who have been here longer.  Its nice to chat anyway as we have been here 6 months and still don't know anyone.  the complex is pretty much empty all the time and aprt from a hello the few other brits seem very reluctant to chat!  Spoken to a few holiday makers though!!

ttfn

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Hi Sands
Hope things turn out alright for you. I understand that there are genuine buyers out there, just wish there were more like you. But I have to agree with Gillespie that the pleasure has gone out of agency. Sometimes I really feel like asking peole if I've done something to upset them in a former life? I guess it's the way a lot of people are these days. Manners cost nothing I always say.  BTW I'm talking about selling in the UK



This message was last edited by Candyfloss on 6/4/2008.

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"BTW I'm talking about selling in the UK"

Flossy, you're NEVER moving over lock, stock & barrel, ARE YOU ?

Do you like my avatar. I found some old photos & photographed them. This is me on my 1st day at school. I look rather lost, don't I ? (Been lost ever since, lol !!)




This message was last edited by morerosado on 6/4/2008.

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Gillespie, Candyfloss et al.

I suggest you direct your frustration at your brother agents who treat cash buyers such as myself as though we are idiots.

Their first question is how much is my budget.
My answer is I've not got one. This I confess is not entirely true as everyone has one. What I don't want to find, is that I don't see a cheap property which requires work because they earn less commission on a cheaper property or I don't get to hear of a more expensive one because they don't think I'll be able to afford it.

Then we get to the lies, 'this property has a bank value of €Xk. Offer the seller €Yk.' Then a quick search reveals it's on 8 different agents books with €105k difference in prices.
Then we get told it's just come on, only to discover, and this is fact, it's been empty for over three years.

I understand you are acting for the sellers. That's fine but my advice is try to develop a relationship built on trust with the buyers as without us you are dead in the water.
Our eyes are our guide. Cracks in walls wide enough for a family of gypsies, with a horse, to live in, are not "normal for Spain."
When doors don't shut in a modern property because the top rail of the door frame is bowed with cracks above, that is not the humidity.
If you are going to act like ravenous vultures expect to get culled.

Don't shoot the messenger, we are only reflecting the real world where cash is king.
I'm sure if you look back at my, what was seen by some at the time as rants, you will find someone telling me earlier this year that my forecasts were mince as Spain was not exposed to global market forces.

Well sir, wherever you're skulking, here's an update, You ain't seen nothing yet! Prices will, in my opinion, not hit bottom for at least another 18 months then plateau for 3 to 5 years before there is the confidence and money necessary to allow the market to climb.
So when this hard nosed buyer ask questions it's not to rip someone off nor is it to make profit, it's to safeguard my hard earned cash as far as is possible. If that's too much heat for you then you're right, it's time to for you to get out of the kitchen.


This message was last edited by DiJit on 6/4/2008.

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No More
I was talking about selling houses in UK as opposed to Spain to avoid the confusion.

Dijit
You obviously have been treated unfairly by someone and the need for agents to be regulated (which we would all welcome) should become law. As you say, there are agents out there that treat people like idiots and should be shot at dawn, my comment was to Gillespie to agree that agency has changed over the years and it is a shame that we tend to get tarred with the same brush.

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Thanks Candyfloss.

What is particularly interesting is that despite banging on this drum for 6 months on this forum, only one of these poor, downtrodden starving agents has bothered to contact me to see if they can lighten my bank balance!

I have repeatedly stressed we are cash buyers, know exactly what we want and in which areas. Maybe having cash buyer stamped on my forehead is a turn off. They are genetically programmed to only recognise the word 'mug.'

Professionals, maybe, but in what?

Of course it may be a simpler answer, they can't read or don't subscribe to eye on spain?

As for regulation, they could always sign up to the UK standards. I'm sure the appropriate body would be happy to take their fees and spend a few days in the sun monitoring them. Not that the UK standards are copper bottomed!

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Hi Dijit
It really is amazing that you haven't been contacted by these agents. I would have thought you'd be on speed dial .
Anyway we had a discussion on regulation a while ago on the forum. Unfortunately regulation in UK is not compulsory and membership to NAEA and Ombudsman is still voluntary so what do you do?
When we were looking to buy in Spain we went on a few trips and had a good idea of what we wanted. After spending many hours trawling through the internet (having been told by one of the "big boys" that what we were looking for didn't exist . I found an independent agent which I built up a good rapport with after many e mails back and forth. Eventually took a trip out to view and found the perfect place. You can imagine the delight I took when I had a phone call from "big boy" to see if we were still looking??? He was a bit miffed to say the least when  told him that I had found a property that apparently didn't exist. . So my advice to future buyers? research, research and more research, it really is amazing to see the same property on so many web sites at all different prices. I'd also like to add that the agent we used could not have been more helpful even after we had completed. See there are some gooduns about
Sorry if I've totally messed up this thread but I really must get out more on my day off


This message was last edited by Candyfloss on 6/4/2008.

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Just my five penny worth re UK agents. About 4 years ago we wanted to buy a weekend / future retirement flat in Kent. We found one we liked but were told by the agent that we couldn't view as it had tenants but they would let us know when. I kept in weekly contact and was promised a date,  then low and behold the flat has been sold. When I queried how I was told it was a cash buyer. Well excuse me so were we. Certainly a case of inside deal. 
However happy ending. We decided to buy in Spain instead. Of course we've probably not made any money as we may have in UK but we've got an apartment we love and don't intend to sell anyway but retire there.  Still looking for place in Kent but can't afford it now - will probably have to be a caravan!

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You did the right thing Sonia,
It was a toss up for us too whether to buy an investment in Cardiff Bay or Spain. Am I glad we opted for Spain.  We have had so much more enjoyment in Spain. 
Yes, sounds like an inside job!!!!  That is the problem, there are still some agents that do not abide by the rules unfortunately. 

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