The Bargain Property Experiment

Hmmm. Especially as this message board is titled "agents fight back". Do you think the fight has gone out of them all?! Perhaps they've all given up and gone away? Perhaps you and I are the only ones with nothing better to do at one in the morning (two here!)

Goodnight, and good luck!

 

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Hmmmm agents only charging 5% Rob - guess you havent spoken to Szekely recently? Or some of the others that maintain high profiles. My belief is that there are still agents out there charging at least 5% and possibly more.

Playing devils advocate over the exact location of property. Now as most will tell you i am not the estate agents best friend in the world - most of them anyway - nonetheless I am going to play the advocate for a moment - I am not condoning the practice but  merely offering a reason why sometimes they may not be able to  give the exact location. There are multiple listing  services here - networks of agents - that will feature other agents properties by agreement. They have photographs and a rough location but no specific details on floor plans or room sizes or the address- based on the fact that not every agent will market to every client and not every client will visit every agent it means that the property can reach a wider audience. The selling agent will have to split any commission with the agent that has the buyer but until such time as there is a genuine desire to view the property the agent that has a client who wishes to view might not know the exact location. Whether the system is flawed or not I will leave for you to judge but it is what it is. My view would be that the agent who has the buyer could at least contact the lisitng agent to establish a better idea on location - the listing agent would not under any circumstances reveal the address unless they have a sole agency agreement with the vendor owing to the fact that the agent with the client may try to circumvent the agent that has the property on the books.

As I say I am not condoning the practice and it may be the system is flawed but it perhaps explains why they cant or wont reveal the exact location - one cannot blame them for protecting their interests as it has happened many times before but until everybody in the world can be considered 100% trustworthy to be honourable I cant see it will change that much. Perhaps I am naive but then again so was Neville Chamberlain.

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Guess we are all too busy trying to reply this morning.

Dijit - I do understand your friends frustration, buy the saying buyers are lyers is one always held in the back of the mind. I have known many instances even when clients have been personally introduced and accompanied to the property, they have gone back and cut a deal behind the agents back. And its nigh on impossible to claim commission after the deed.

Its happened to me, but luckily gut feeling made me find out and I got paid after many unsavoury threats!

The other problem is the multiple agency one, where a property has 3 or 4 agents involved. There is no written selling mandate and again people get cut out of the deal. Whilst I do not condone the high commissions, many agents do charge them and that is their business - I am cutting across that but I dont have all the properties, so if you want it that much, then your gonna have to pay the money.

Not everyone is honest and in the property game, most are not!

Have a good day everyone - rushing out now, back later for more fight!!!! Bring it on!!!!

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Sorry i took so long to reply,i had to get someone to read the question to me!!!!!

Nothing more really to add on this,Rixxy and Smiley more or less summed it up.

Unfortunately if you gave the full address out of a property people were interested in then 50% of buyers would go around,knock on the door and say "right forget the agent,what do YOU want for the property"

In our defence we only charge 2% anyway,i dont think that is a huge amount for the work that is put in....

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I think 2 % for the peace of mind that you are dealing with a reputable agent is a very good deal.I am sure that these agents would make sure everything was o.k.,no outstanding debts on the property etc, which is why that is the way we will go when we eventually get the money in place.

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Good answers, pretty much confirming what I was saying about agents trying to avoid either competitors or clients going direct to vendors. Of course it happens (talking personal experience here, both ways  ), so it does explain to some extent this behaviour which DiJit is finding so frustrating. It does bring me back to what I said in a previous post (12th april):

....trying to compare all the time with how things are done in the UK is surely a bit futile? This is Spain, as they say, and things are somewhat "different" here!

And what Smiley just said:

"Whether the system is flawed or not I will leave for you to judge but it is what it is".

I think the frustration experienced by genuine buyers like DiJit over this kind of thing may be a relatively new phenomenon caused by the internet. Before the possiblity of viewing property from the comfort of your own armchair thousands of miles away, I don't suppose this would have happened. Agents probably would never have taken seriously any "buyer" who wasn't actually there, or at least would think that if a potentail buyer can be bothered to make an international phone call and then wait for details to arrive by snail mail, they're probably genuine, but nowadays it's so easy to request info by e-mail when you're maybe not really that interested, since there's no effort involved etc etc. In a way you can understand if they take the attitude of, when you get here, then I'll know you're serious.

Bit waffly, but I think you know what I mean?

And of course, if all agents were regulated and restricted to charging (a very reasonable) 2%, then nobody would think it worth the bother or potential hassle of cutting anyone out. And maybe when all the dross have closed their doors and we're left with long standing, professional LOCAL agents who know their area inside out and don't try to sell outside of it, then perhaps the multi listing services will fade away as well, taking their ludicrous commissions with them!

Buenas días!

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Dijit

I can understand what the agents are trying to do too. As Georgia says, if there is too much information given out the what stops the potential buyer going around and knocking on the door. That works both ways for the vendor too. How can they vet buyers and check out details and chains involved if there are any. Would you let a stranger into your house if you weren't on the market? However, if they are worth their salt then building up a rapport with the buyer would be more helpful and not waste everyones time. I had an excellent service from the agent we bought from after lots of research and numerous e mails to each other. By the time we narrowed down our wants and needs he was able to show us properties we were interested in and saved a lot of time and running around for both us and them. They must learn that and then they will get quality viewings rather than quantity. It just boils down to LISTENING to what exactly their buyers are looking for and then they won't be running around like chickens with their heads cut off!!

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WILL YOU COME 'ERE !!! 

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Thanks for all the replies.
I still believe there is a better way for everyone. By everyone, I mean sellers, agents, and buyers as that is the logical chain of order.

Perhaps one day (soon?) I'll organise a masterclass for agents.
Afterwards we can compare the results for those doing it my way and those who don't!
Might even offer a guarantee based on results!

Anyway I read today two stories which I believe emphasise or will impact on my theme of confidence in the market:-

First up:- Poor Winter for Tourist Numbers on the Costa del Sol
The Costa del Sol has suffered its worst winter for tourism since 2003, according to AECHOS the area’s Association of Hoteliers. The president said that ‘for years we have not seen such worrying numbers’. The worst months were November and December, with the former seeing a 7% drop on hotel occupancy compared to 2006 and December seeing a 6% fall. Over the whole of 2007, occupancy was 2.5% lower than in 2006 on the coast.

Secondly:-
Authorities Use Helicopter to Seek Out Illegal Buildings

Last Wednesday (13th February) an agent from the Environment Department joined Guardia Civil personnel in a helicopter searching for illegal houses or construction projects. This is to be the first of a series of aerial patrols over Malaga province. They will be making videos of the flights and comparing them with existing documents such as the ‘Catastro’ to check whether buildings are in permitted zones.

Thanks to Cristina Sanchez at 1Casa REALLY Affordable Homes for the info.

So it may be Spain and we recognise that 'it's different over there' but exposure to global markets means that if you play the ostrich and bury your head in the sand you're going going to get kicked and you won't even see it coming.

My message is simple change or die!
Absolutely no room for complacency, just look at the rollcall of those now deceased. You think you have some special immunity?
I don't think so.!

Trust me, I've refrained from posting every ludicrous conversation we are having on a daily basis with some agents who believe the good times are still with them.
SWMBO is on a mission and has viewed several thousand properties online.
The problem is always the same, what area is it in?
No, Estopona is to our thinking more of a region with dozens of areas contained within as is Malaga. Some of those are pretty useless for our needs.
We know to the 1/4 mile exactly where we want to be. We just have to keep asking 'where roughly is it?' Then we get the ubiquitous reply can't tell you. Then we get a phone call, when do we want to view?
I'm pretty blunt and explain the situation in words of one syllable. Most try to comply but a few have persisted with crap, bullshit and lies. They get short shrift with me but I explain why before I hang up.

Strangely the other problem of price has markedly improved over the last 7-10 days with some stunning (from the pics and description) villas now well below the key trigger level of <€2000/m2.
A couple at this price are new to a very high spec and in the best of areas. It seems my predictions are arriving earlier than expected.
The tricky question is whether to buy now or wait and see how far this submarine can dive.
I suspect our criteria are now sufficiently well analysed that we can confidently plow on with the first one that ticks all the boxes.

I'll keep you posted.

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Glad to hear your search is progressing in the right direction, DiJit.

Couple of thoughts on your last:

"The Costa del Sol has suffered its worst winter for tourism since 2003, according to AECHOS the area’s Association of Hoteliers"  Maybe, but why does that affect confidence in the property market? This stat refers to hotel occupancy. A large part of the reason is that more and more visitors to the CDS are opting to stay in apartments & villas, either their own, or rented. You could therefore take that completely the opposite way, as with most "stats".

"Authorities Use Helicopter to Seek Out Illegal Buildings" I think this already happens in the UK too, but without the need for helicopters, since there are enough CCTV already in place to check on everyone's movement (and building of illegal extensions etc.) Yes, of course all the recent scandals and Town Hall corruption has had an adverse effect on the market, but I don't think it's necessarily going to put everybody off buying - just put people off buying on new developments that may or may not be legal.

I appreciate what you are saying about complacency, and the "roll call of deceased" speaks for itself, but I still don't think you are likely to spark the kind of change you are hoping for by citing these factors. It took a major terrorist attrocity for the government to finally take a firm stand on illegal black money deals, which thankfully are now pretty much done with, but Spain and the Spanish people are still entrenched in many old customs which no amount of "exposure to global markets" is likely to change. When it comes to the relative importance of foreigners to the Spanish economy, the attitude really is remarkably arrogant. I read in the paper this week that the opposition leader has pledged that if he gets into power, all Spanish school kids will be speaking English within 10 years. What!? Why bother now, after several decades of "global exposure" having no effect whatsoever. I went to a Spanish owned Italian restaurant last night. The waitress was Estonian. Got the job, presumably, because apart from speaking excellent Spanish, she is also fluent in English and Italian. Probably down to all the global exposure Estonia got under Soviet rule.

One other point that I'm a bit confused about - reading the British papers, it seems to me that the UK property market is going through similar doldrums, and I keep reading about a worldwide credit crunch. Not meaning to play Smiley's Devil's advocate, but are Spanish estate agents to blame for that as well then?

Finally, you say you have narrowed down your search area to within a 1/4 mile radius. That's pretty specific! Wouldn't it be easier, therefore, to find a good local agent, give him the exact parameters, and ask him/her to find your property for you, rather than trawling through "thousands of properties online"? Are there even "thousands" of properties within your specified area?! Or better still, just come over and drive around spotting Se Vende signs and don't bother with agents at all.

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Oh Roberto - we agents are to blame for everything!!!

I agree with the hostelry figures not meaning a lot, its the airline figures I want to see, up down or the same.

DiJit - definately a momentum in people wanting to sell, but again not many owners accepting the inevitable. I think more toward the end of this eyar we will see some real doom and gloom, mainly from the banks who will have to stop pussy footing around and take action.

We do need definitive regulation but fom the government, not self regulation - that still doesnt work in the UK after all these years and even with their own estate agents act!!!

Time for home and a drink - meethinks!

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I think the problem is that people are scared to commit, Put yourself  in the position of a possible buyer, every day there is a story knocking Spain in the British press and the Spanish press has finally woken up to the fact that all is not well in the State of Spain..  Threats of houses being demolished, land grabs in Valencia yes it is still going on.  Developers going broke everyday, I would n´t buy in Spain at the moment if a house was offered to me for 1p.

 

When the authorities in Spain get their act together and  people who can prove to be innocent   do not have their property  demolished around their ears and planning is taken out of the hands of tin pot mayors and their cronies, the Spanish market will be dead and it deserves to be.  

 

Also when the European Union grows some cojones and makes Spain pay for its outrages , Valencia Land Grab, etc the market might improve.

I know that probably 80% of people are happy with their investment in Spain, the problem is one bad case is one case too many.

 

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You would'nt buy in Spain for 1p  !!!!

I would 

Seriously though, surely it is not that risky if you do the job properly and take good advice asgiven on this forum.

I assume you are not in Spain then ?

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135yearsandwaiting!!  I realise that the Spanish authorities have to deal with alot of crap and sort it out, but there is also the "buyer be aware" caveat!!  You would be amazed at the amount of Brits - and others - who invest in this part of the world (Middle East, in case you didn't notice on my profile) who are not aware of the laws here.  I fully agree that there needs to be regulation put in place to basically hang those who are involved in corrupt dealing and to compensate those who have lost through others' corrupt dealings,  but I would also say that there are many out there who do not fully research their investments.

I would like to know how many people who have put money into a "holiday" apartment in the UAE realise what would happen in the event of death, or if he Ruler of an Emirate suddenly decided that there would be no freehold ownership/  And do they know that they cannot buy a bottle of wine or indeed any alcohol without a licence (which has to be applied for after you have a residence visa).  Sometimes, and I stress ONLY sometimes, people invest without fully investigating their options.  S**t happens, not just to those who don't deserve it, but to those who could have researched a little more!

It does not excuse regional governments in Spain suddenly deciding to demolish homes in communities because of corrupt planning permissions, and hopefully exposure about this will stop it happening again.

But, hopefully, it will make sure that people like yourself "who wouldn't invest a penny" might reconsider and just make sure that they and their representatives make sure there are no illegalities to their title.

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Good points, Pitby. Expect a bit of backlash, 'cos I got it when I made a similar point!

Anybody interested in buying a property in Torremolinos with a full (personal) money back guarantee in case of a land grab or demolition etc. etc., feel free to contact me with your criteria. I'll be happy to source it for you, and can assure you it will be totally legal and above board and a good, sound, long term investment. Sorry, nothing available at this moment for anywhere around the 1p mark though

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Pitby - I totally agree with your comments, and yes many bought here with no research. However, now it has turned bad for them, the bad news has travelled far and wide scaring off many who thought about buying. Maybe they were just followers of the trend setters, who bought thinking they could make money

However, daily I am trying to help people with problems, no one in La Reserva fro example thought their lawyers would be in cahoots with the developers and the licenses were none existant. Many properties even if I wanted to sell them I cannot as banks refuse to lend until the full license comes through and in some developments the actual license has been revoked.

Many many people did not researcha nd just assumed, but now its gone sour theres no point blaming the individual, however at fault they may be, as it doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of things.

Fact is no 'normal' buyers are looking to buy. There are a few but they all want maximum finance - now impossible to buy including costs in the mortgage, and these few are being fought over by agents.

Other than those few the true investors are heavily here, BUT the main problem is so many bought with 80% finance a couplr of years ago, they are now in trouble but with bank valuations dropping by this 20% as an average, they are now in negative equity and therefore will not find a buyer at all.

Its been estimated to take an average 36 months to sell a property - I suspect last years figures to extend on this.

The bad press is keeping others away, as is the poor exchange rate, the price of things here and of course the problems in their own countries.

Buying a second home isnt as urgent as ensuring your kids have a good education, or that the mortgage is paid, so its put onto the back burner.

Tellingly I am in email contact with a lady stuck in an awful situation - she knows its of her own doing but is typical. A single mother, she and a business partner bought 3 properties to help secure the future of her kids. 2 in the UK and 1 here. The one here cannot be sold - no license and the 2 in the UK were bought at top money, although at the time it seemed a great deal as there was no money down. They wont rent out and the business aortner has walked out. She is left with 3 mortgages on interst only and her home mortgage juggling a busy job with the upbringing of 2 kids. She isnt after pity or anything, but is an example of the media and agent hype of the past few years - no one bothered to even place a warning on the packet - and thats wrong!

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This is a strange situation indeed. No buyers of the normal variety. A few bargain hunters and as Rixxi said, a few with no money and poor credit rating. I have a few friends over here in Spain for a holiday. They say that almost everyone in the UK that they talk to, work collegues, family, friends and neighbours all still dream of moving to spain. They never cite demolishions, bent Mayors or illegal builds as the reason not to buy. They just need the money or a work opportunity. So our market is still there and after the crunch maybe it will return.

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Don't know quite how relevant this is (I think it is but my mind is a bit muddled today because I've been dealing with a flooded garage yet again), but the property I currently have on the market has had about a couple of dozen vieings to date. One English, the rest Spanish. The only reason I mention this is because most if not all of the posts here (for obvious reasons, I admit) seem to talk about the "foreign" market in Spain, and I still maintain that property in Spain is about more than just the foreigners buying here. 

My property would normally appeal to foreigners looking for a holiday home, but clearly there are none looking. (Even Rixxy can't find me a buyer!) BUT, the Spanish still are looking (mostly Cordobans it seems, for some inexplicable reason). Only thing is, they also seem to be believing the hype and bad press, and expect everything to be going for, well, 1p, frankly! I have had a couple of offers, too low, but in at least one instance, I know the interested party would have offered more if she could have got a bigger mortgage (nothing to do with valuation it seems, more to do with her income - never got as far as a valuation) and I think this is more to do with the WW Credit Crunch than any particular aspect of Spanish property. By comparison, a couple of years ago I sold a property to a young Spanish couple who had somehow obtained a private mortgage for 130% of the purchase price (they wanted a new car as well!) Coupled to that, even the fact that the declared value on the escritura was way below the actual price (please don't report me, I won't post anymore if you do) didn't seem to matter. Today of course that wouldn't happen, and as a result this same couple would simply not be able to buy.

Like I said, I don't really know exactly how relevant this is here, so maybe someone else can finish my thoughts off for me. I can't explain why, but at the moment I'm preoccupied with trying to figure out the difference between "ought to" and "should". Something to do with transitive or intransitive verbs, and whether there's any difference at all when translated into Spanish - as in "our garage is flooded yet again, so you (the water board) should get your sorry a**es round here to pump it out" 

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Well, well, well I thank you all for your comments which seem to support my position in particular that we are at the start of the downward curve towards realistic and sustainable value rather than at the bottom looking forward and upwards.

I totally agree that too many people believe property can only go up without any concept of the factors which influence both prices and the timeframes. In short they do not know how to research a market and do their own due diligence, so they resort to crossing of fingers and rely on the agent or developer which effectively are one and the same. After all it could never happen (getting shafted) to them, could it? Allow me to scream CAVEAT EMPTOR and reflect on the sin of greed.

I'm delighted to see Roberto now accepts that you are not immune from global markets or even Spain is a special situation viz, ' I think this is more to do with the WW Credit Crunch than any particular aspect of Spanish property'.

I also read today in eyeonspain - Buying In Spain - It's Never Been Better! Lyndsey Andrew sums up some of the recent turmoil in the Spanish property industry and believes there's never been a better time to buy. Read Lyndsey's views... http://www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/buying-never-better.aspx

Whilst some of what she writes I agree with but yet again it displays an agent getting lost within the smokescreen and mirrors she attempts to create.
The site would not accept my comments which read as follows:- Perhaps you can explain 'Share prices experienced an unprecedented dramatic rise, closely followed by an equally dramatic fall which ultimately led to not only the bankruptcy of the company, but a knock on effect on other companies in the industry whose share price also fell, some quite significantly. '

The share price of a company has little influence on a company's viability.
In reality the opposite is true with profits or losses (expected or otherwise) driving the share price up or down.

A collapse in share price reflects the prospects of the company not controls its destiny.
Whilst I agree with some of your article it smacks of the vested interests of yet another agent with crossed fingers hoping the market bottom has been reached. Be interesting to re-visit your comments in 12 months. Bet you are hoping by then that we have short memories.

Gillespie: 'No buyers of the normal variety.' Hmmn, I'm a cash buyer and intent on reaping (but not raping) the benefits that cash and speed should produce. Does that make me abnormal? I hope not, just rare and to be encouraged. I want realism and truth but seem to meet with hype and bull 95% of the time from the very agents that I would expect to be chasing after me. They would rather engage in futile arguments which they can't substantiate and fly directly in contradiction of the plain and very obvious truth than take my cash and earn a living by doing so. Just because they say it, think it and wish for it doesn't make it true.

Crazy times, crazier people!

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I'm sticking to my transitive and intransitive verbs for now, because I'm finding DiJit's posts increasingly difficult to follow. I can't actually work out whether he wants to buy in Spain or not. I'm perhaps a little confused. He knows exactly where he wants to buy, and nowhere else will do. But if nobody in this exact location wants to sell for the price he wants to pay, it just ain't gonna happen, is it? no matter how much he tells us it should (or ought to? Sp: debe de) I don't have a degree in economics or anything, but this seems pretty elementary to me. Again, he seems to be blaming the agents because he can't get want he wants. Maybe they are also finding him a little difficult to figure out?

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