The Bargain Property Experiment

Am I losing my marbles Flossy ?  I thought you were selling houses in the  UK !!

Having re read your post I think I know what you mean. You were writing about the "joys" of selling in the UK ( as that's what you do) as opposed to selling in Spain like Gillespie & Georgia etc..... 

AHA ! Penny drops.








This message was last edited by morerosado on 6/4/2008.

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Would love to live in Cardiff Bay - or Swansea Marina - but costs too much now!! Daughter and family are in Llandeilo but it's a bit too remote (cowboy country). Want somewhere near to an airport so we can hop to Spain as and when and vice versa.

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Quote DiJit - "I suggest you direct your frustration at your brother agents who treat cash buyers such as myself as though we are idiots."


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We are not frustrated DiJit, just in dispair of the calibre of buyers out there.  

If you want your "cash buyer" status to rise in the eyes of an agent then instead of decieving them Quote you ""Their first question is how much is my budget.
My answer is I've not got one. This I confess is not entirely true as everyone has one." - I suggest you don´t try and mislead them with your vague, flippant attitude.

If you tell them your true finacial situation they will find you suitable property.  Decieving them about your budget means they will show you what they think you can afford instead of what you can afford.

Next you´ll be back on here telling everyone how they tried to sell you something too expensive and all because you thought hiding your budget was clever.

Be up-front with people for heavens sake, and they will be up-front with you!!

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Sands asked earlier about bank repos, and Sonia mentioned about insider dealing. I enquired a while ago of my bank manager about repos. He told me the bank (BBVA) has an in-house company that disposes of these properties - whatever that meant. He suggested that they aren't sold for less than their current valuation anyway - again, whatever that means; whose valuation?? He did, however, have in his possession a list of subastas and said that any properties that are mortgaged through his branch and repossessed, he obviously gets to know about in advance so could possibly let me know. However, he had nothing and knew of nothing of interest!
The problem with bank repos I think is twofold: at least for now, the majority of these properties are likely to be the least desirable type (ground floor, poor location, etc.) and any genuinely interesting properties at real bargain prices, will be snapped up by those in the know - lawyers, notaries and bank managers, for example!

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Just a comment on Candyfloss's post, quote: "it really is amazing to see the same property on so many web sites at all different prices."
I've said this before many times, that whenever I have put a property on the market, I have told all the agents listing it at what price they are to market it. That way, potential buyers don't get put off, or feel that one agent or another may be ripping them off, because they have seen it offered at wildly varying prices. And if anybody rings me direct having seen my number in the window, they get quoted the same price, too. If I get a private buyer, either I get more than I hoped for (has happened) or the buyer gets a good discount (also happened). If I sell through an agent, if I'm lucky, it's one who only charges me 2%; if I'm unlucky, I cough up 5% (never any more!), but that will have been accounted for when I decided on a selling price that would be acceptable to me. 
I know others may have different ideas on this, but I feel this is the best way, and helps to avoid buyers becoming disenchanted at agents - although clearly there are some who want to see all agents shot at dawn! (take a look at the thread "Have the agents been wiped out in the property war?" if there isn't enough evidence here!)

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Re. " So my advice to future buyers? research, research and more research, it really is amazing to see the same property on so many web sites at all different prices. I'd also like to add that the agent we used could not have been more helpful even after we had completed. "

Spot on Candyfloss and this exactly the course we are pursuing.

Sonia El, sit tight and you may yet find Kent comes back in line with your budget.

Gillespie, I'm not in the business of deceiving or misleading anyone. I'm straight forward to deal with. Find me a villa in my chosen area which meets all my criteria and we'll do business.
Any agent who has been in touch has been sent a single page clearly specifying everything we require. It even says no objection to purchasing a villa or a finca needing a degree of work providing the walls are still standing.

Nor is my attitude flippant as we spent a full month online researching virtually 8-10 hours a day. My attitude is in all due modesty, knowledgeable and informed which is why patronising and indeed lying agents are easy meat.

For the record my day job is managing a property portfolio many times the value of the annual property sales of any CdS agent. I think this allows me to claim to know what I'm doing and how to deal with agents on a day to day basis.

My criteria are what's relevant as my budget is more than adequate.


This message was last edited by DiJit on 6/4/2008.

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If budget is not important, how about this beauty?

Set on its own private headland in the Bay of Pollença, just off the Formentor peninsula in the North East corner of Mallorca, Sa Fortalesa has 9 hectares (22-acres) of land, a castle dating back to 1622, 6 guest houses, 17 bedrooms, 2 pools, and, of course, a helipad. “The property meets the highest security standards, enjoys total privacy, and can only be reached by private road,” says the selling agent Kühn & Partner.

The timing for the sale isn’t great, just as Spain’s housing market goes into a tailspin, but with a target market of international billionaires it probably doesn’t matter. The rest of us might be drowning in the credit crunch and higher mortgage rates, but “the rich are not like you and me.” The global super-rich are just getting richer, fuelling demand for insanely expensive trophy properties in the world’s glamour destinations like Mallorca.

Sa Fortalesa, which means ‘The Fortress’ in English, was originally built to guard the Bay of Pollença from marauding pirates. In 1919 it was bought by the Argentinean painter Roberto Ramauge for 45,000 Pesetas (270 Euros, unadjusted) who did it up and turned it into a jet-set party pad. During the Spanish Civil War it was requisitioned by the Spanish government, but was returned to the family after the war. In 1989 it was bought by the present English owner, who reformed the castle and houses, installed the pools, and built the helipad.

One has to assume that the property is unaffected by the Spanish coastal law (ley de costas), but given the arbitrary way in which the coastal department at the ministry of the environment is confiscating private land near the seafront all over Spain, it’s certainly an issue that any prospective buyer should take a good look at before jumping in.

So if you like space, privacy, and sea views, and let’s face it, who doesn’t? then Sa Fortaleza is for you, assuming you have 125 million Euros in cash lying around. After all, the same money would just about buy you the biggest apartment in London’s exclusive One Hyde Park development overlooking Hyde Park, so seen in those terms, it’s a bargain.

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Quote DiJit - "

"For the record my day job is managing a property portfolio many times the value of the annual property sales of any CdS agent. I think this allows me to claim to know what I'm doing and how to deal with agents on a day to day basis"
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DiJit, if you have connections with suppliers of BMV property in your day job, why are you dealing with Pi$$-Pot agents in Spain for your own property?????

There has never been such a glut of available property in Spain at silly prices, why are you finding it difficult to locate a property?

Either your budget is too low or your requirements are unrealistic!!!

Leave the agents behind and use your day-job contacts to locate your Spanish property.

And if you say your day job contacts don´t deal in Spanish property, then I won´t believe you, property professionals always have cantacts in in every country.

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Just a last word

I really fail to see why people can't give an approximate budget. Really, this is what we need to find a property in the price range and criteria that buyers want and saves so much wasted time and uneventful trips abroad looking for property that does not fit the bill.To be honest no budget is about as much use to us as a chocolate teapot. It all boils down to communication on all sides which is why the independent agent got his sale and the "big boys" didn't.

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Sonia El
How spooky, my brother in law lives in Llandeilo. Small world. 
I don't know about living in Cardiff bay and expensive? Not any more. Loads of properties on the market down the "Docks"

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Right lets deal with this.

Roberto, your offering doesn't meet any of my criteria. In particular the location and the size. The last thing I need is another huge house especially one with seventeen bedrooms.

Candyfloss, my briefing schedule covers all the criteria that matter to me. A fixed budget is unnecessary as price range bands according to condition are given on a €/m2 basis. My rational is if you have a 110m2 build in a 2000m2 plot it will be priced considerably lower than a 300m2 villa and I may well not get to hear of it. However the cheaper 110m2 may well be, in the perfect location and I'm happy to extend the build size. From an agents point of view, they earn on the selling price not the end value once I've redesigned it. Hence no budget!

Gillespie, the worst crime a sales person can commit is to listen and not hear. If BMV means below market value then can I suggest we're on different wavelengths. Market value is the figure someone is willing to pay and a figure a seller will accept. Therefore BMV is fiction. However if you equate BMV with bank valuation then you don't understand the market you''re in. If BMV means something different I look forward to hearing about it.

Now, if there is anyone out there more interested in matching my criteria to a property instead of worrying how much my budget might be, please get in touch.

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Hi Sands! Apologies for taking a while to come back to you - been busy!!!!

Anyway, thanks for browsing the web. No - these units arent from any bank stock. I do get these lists but quite frankly I get properties cheaper than they are prepared to let me sell them for! I did have a supposed list from someone, it sounded good but you had to buy cash, with ex owner in situ and then take the role of the lender to get them removed OR get them to pay the finance! Ie taking over the bankers role. I thought this wasnt what I wanted to be promoting to my clients so turned it down

Anyway, the repo list here is complicated. Banks HATE stating they have a repo, so they disguise it as best they can. Some banks have a subsidiary to whom they pass the property to and who tries to sell it on behalf of the defailter. It hasnt actually been repossesed in the way we know it, but the owner is behind or not paying at all. The price will be the mortgage, plus arrears and costs. ALSO very important to remember is that asstes hold the debts in Spain, SO if they cannot pay the mortgage, then the community fees, ibi (rates) etc will all be outstanding and it is likelly the new owner will get cuaght with them.

Next stage is Bank repossession. Finally they lose patience and they go to the courts. The court will issue the summons and then the property is owned by the banks. They will auction it and this is done via the local court who is in charge of the process. Usually anything tasty will have been passed to the notary - who is the first person to know about the repo as he signs the order - the banks friends family and milkman!

Assume then its a pup, and it will go to 'auction' which here is like a tender situation. You write in with your bid and how to pay. The envelope is opened at a certain day and time - this is shown on the local court noticeboard. If it hasnt got to reserve (the amount to clear all the bank mortgage, arrears and costs) then it will be remortgaged at 70% of outstanding, then again at 50% and then I beleive its at no reserve.

The remaining debt is tagged to the old owner and you have a proeprty - hopefully! Quite a few pitfalls and the local mafia boys tend to control this - brown paper envelopes etc! Again other debts WILL be on the property so be careful.

My auctions are like the UK ones, all private owners BEFORE they hit the skids - some have to send money over to complete the transaction unfortunately and others after the auction take their chances with the bank, but all mine are free of any charges - they go through like any other sale here, just that I have a limited selection as they are form owners who really have to sell.

I do echo Gillespies comments as buyers have changed, but it is indicative of the market and the element of if you dont ask you dont get comes in. Personally I have seen a distinct change in clients TOWARDS lifestyle buyers, mainly cash, as opposed to the investors wanting to highly gear the mortgages.

So who knows how it will go. I did start the auctions in 04 taking a view that the market would be falling rapidly by 06, but that didnt happen. This year has started how I expected 06 to be, so I am of the opinion that these next 2 years will shake more sellers who CAN sell out of the tree - the ones with high mortgages will give up paying. The banks will try to hold their heads up but I htink at the end of this year when they release their figures, there will be some sever dressing downs and like the UK in the 90s they will have to take a view on what to do. I suspect in 2 - 3 years they will HAVE to auction off with no reserves to just gat back what they can and will chase overseas defaulters for the remainder of the debts

Thats when you will see the real bargains. Until then you will see the odd property, which gets faught over which is in good location.
If you are a buyer wanting more a bargain than a particular type of property ie lifestyle, then hold your powder for another couple of years - unless you see the one of your dreams, in the right location for a good price!

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Quote DiJit - "Gillespie, the worst crime a sales person can commit is to listen and not hear. If BMV means below market value then can I suggest we're on different wavelengths. Market value is the figure someone is willing to pay and a figure a seller will accept. Therefore BMV is fiction. However if you equate BMV with bank valuation then you don't understand the market you''re in. If BMV means something different I look forward to hearing about it."
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"If BMV means below market value then can I suggest we're on different wavelengths. Market value is the figure someone is willing to pay and a figure a seller will accept. Therefore BMV is fiction."

Errr, no actually, that is what happens.....most of the time.  Market value is before an offer and BMV is what properties in reality change hand for.  Yeesss, it is that simple DiJit!!!

I haven´t got a bleeding clue what you are now talking about or where the hell you are going!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are, with the utmost respect, the most phsycologically   complicated person I have ever debated with!!!

Next subject Peerrrllleasee!




This message was last edited by Gillespie on 6/6/2008.

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Incidentally DiJit, If you control a property "portfolio"   ( I have to say those that really do refer to them as "stock" or "assets", only amatuers call them portfolios) and additionally they would never grace a forum like this as they would die of embarrasment!  

What are you doing here???????

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Gillespie, this amateur is obviously enjoying himself, winding you up!

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Next subject coming up Gillespie

Does anyone know the words (simple as poss) for well done?? As in well done steak. (not to be confused with "good on ya mate") I had a lovely meal when we were last over but the steak was really too raw for me. I know, I know I should be learning more Spanish, I am trying very hard but I just need a simple phrase that the waiter can understand. Now you lot, don't give me the wrong one coz if the waiter takes a bow and gets a standing ovation.................................

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Ok
I have googled.
There are 2 apparently that mean well done meat. Bien hecho and muy hecho.
Anyone know which one would be the best one to use??  
Thank You, Bob where are you?????

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I think you'll find the chef will come out and take a bow with bien hecho as you are telling him he has done it very well.  I always ask for bien cocido when ordering a steak for SWMBO.  However, don't quote as my knowledge of Spanish comes from Latin America and we all know there are differences.  Still, bien cocido has always got what is required.


Edited to say:
e-mailed my mate in Spain.  He has replied that bien cocido is indeed used in Latin America.
The phrases used in Spain are to do with hecho.
bien hecho  - medium
no demasiado hecho - rare
poco hecho - blue
muy hecho - well done (or carbonizado)

Not sure if he was taken the mickey on the carbonizado bit.



This message was last edited by bobaol on 6/6/2008.

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Bob to the rescue yet again,
is there no end to your talents? .

Thanks for that, I will take those pearls of wisdom with me next week.

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Maybe time to give up steaks, flossy mate.

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