Bad news in Spain!

peteha

do you really think has every angle hasn't  been tried over the last 8 years???. 

It's necessary to analyse the case and results in order to come to any conclusions...... it's far too simplistic to suggest analyse the results.

You will find in the majority of cases that have not reached a successful conclusion that court delays have impacted significantly on the situation, such that after winning the first instance judgement the justice mal-administration compromises the client at every stage and is a disgrace. Don't lay the blame on those who are the innocent party, who are seeking reform at every opportunity, who are doing their utmost to achieve a succesful conclusion via an incredibly archaic justice system. Look to the facts and you will see that Spanish justice is in dire need of reform. Major reform which will benefit all in the longer term.

If you have tried every angle over the last 8 years.

and know it all

please tell us  in regard to deposits returned

what is the main reason for deposits returned.

bank guarantees????

other reasons

most successful lawyer used

any particular development been more successful than others

8 years is a long time ,things change.

when you can answer these questions you will have tried every angle.

Ads ,Goodstitch

Where are the answers ?

you havent got them as you would rather whinge on than look for them.

be like Keith doing something constructive and stop invading other threads

looking for sympathy.

its in short supply 

Peteha,

Please be so kind as to keep your comments non-personal as reverting to vindictive and snide remarks does your argument no favour.

Perhaps you could do your own homework on the mal administration of justice before you draw too many generalised conclusions.

The following are just a few quotes that you might like to consider

“ You can now imagine the kind of nightmare that we, lawyers, suffer every day. The administration of justice is simply ineffective. We put up with this every day….ultimately it is the Ministry of Justice who is responsible for this situation”

“We file every writ almost the first day of any term and then the writ lies for months on some clerk’s desk…..”

“I do understand that these periods and delays are beyond the understandable. However these are the periods we are forced to work with here….”

“This is why the legal situation in Spain is so frustrating. Laws might say one thing, but the judge something else, and so on to another higher court…”

“We are currently bringing claims to the General Council of Judges on eases of unacceptable delays….”

“Cases like yours are what can be called “easy cases” (even when sometimes we fall into the endless nonsense of some judges). We are concentrated on the difficult ones now….those clients who did not receive a BG……”

“The odd person seems to win but my feeling is they are in the minority and for every victory there are hundreds caught up in the legal system and I doubt some will ever see a penny back. “

“Anywhere else in the world the veil of incorporation would be lifted and forensic accountants would dig deep but not here…And these people would be banned from holding office again…..but here more than likely a short term in prison and then back to enjoy the good life and maybe out in time to launch Aifos2 as the next property boom starts.”

And so it goes on.

So please allow us the opportunity to continue time consuming research into finding realistic solutions, to take some hope from successful outcomes yes, but it's equally essential to put these results into perspective when reviewing your own case history. Much depends on the complexity of each case, so generalised assumptions that a "win" in one case will be effective in another is frequently misleading. Neither is it the case that having a good lawyer and a sound case sufficient to achieve justice, more’s the pity. In many cases significant court delays financially compromise clients (as with Goodstich's case where his case win counted for little as the developer went bust whilst significant delays impeded the implementation of the successful judgement).

Please don't underestimate either the uphill climb that many face given the costs involved in achieving successful outcomes, or where they find it necessary to change to another legal firm. So long as there are continuing undeniable hurdles of justice mal-administration that hinder and compromise those seeking justice, it is essential that all remain aware and focused on the need for reform. Comments such as "whinging" and "looking for sympathy" are totally out of order and not at all representative of my continuing efforts to bring such matters to the attention of many, to pass on information gleaned (not necessarily always on a public forum), to constantly seek advice from those more experienced than I, and to support the wonderful efforts of others so that we can all ultimately benefit in the longer term.

As for invading other threads, please don't deny anyone the right to respond where they feel it necessary to correct issues of a factual nature, so long as they have good sound information to impart. Bad news and good news have equal place and neither should be at conflict with the other. They are facts to observe and hopefully help others to make personal judgements. All too frequently divisive or over defensive elements creep into the equation, which sadly does neither any justice.

Please let’s work together without pointing fingers or making unfair criticisms or generalised assumptions that only inflame the situation.

“8 years is a long time, things change.”

Well unfortunately the delays within the court system have NOT changed, in fact they are getting worse. Hence our constant endeavour to contact the powers that be to seek reform in any way that we can manage, and along the way to keep highlighting the fact to those who may be oblivious to the implications, as unfortunately many have found to their cost.

 Dear Ads,

superb post!

Peteha, just who are you??????????????

why do you post such nonsense???????????

how can you believe that your insults or indeed your sympathy have even the remotest effect????????????

don't you realise your total irrelevance??????????????????????

surely you must???????????

Regards

Norman

Dear Ads

Thank you for the information which I have read and taken on board.

I was only suggesting that some form of analysis of results may be

useful in helping others obtain their money back.

However,I bow to your greater knowledge  and obvious hard work in this matter.

Norman

I wont rise to your insults but note you are once again riding on the back

of someone elses post.

people like that are called parasites.

ads

smack on answer as usual.. As you say, people really need to do their homework on the subject before posting. The 'rough justice' thread has keeps moving forward due to factual content, understanding, and much work done by several contributors. Many thanks to those who are doing everything they can to help those cheated.

Hi All

I don't want to get involved in any personal arguments etc....

We must all focus our energy on tackling the real guilty parties - The Banks, Developers, Agents etc.

For those who received Bank Guarantees and have been able to execute them and receive a refund - Fantastic they have received exactly what they are entitled to and we should be pleased for them.

But let us remember they have got nothing more than the legal rights that LEY 57/68 demands.

For the rest of us who have not received the Bank Guarantees or for those who have received a Bank Guarantee but are now being forced to take legal action in an attempt to secure the refund - we are the victims of a system that has allowed this illegal activity to continue unchallenged.

But we will do everything in our power to change the landscape and bring this shocking situation to the attention of all the relevant authorities.

After all..........just like those who did receive the Bank Guarantees and have received a refund - we are asking for nothing more than OUR legal rights.

Peteha - We are always studying and analyzing the outcomes and results of actions in relation to Bank Guarantees and LEY 57/68.  We are always searching for Case Law from successful legal actions.  Any information we find will be used to support future cases.

I understand this is a very frustrating topic especially for those who have been caught up in this nightmare for many years.  The speed at which the legal process moves is painfully slow, but slowly but surely we will win the race!!

Kind regards

Keith

I understand and completely agree with your argument Keith, but I am also very concerned, without being overly alarmist, that unless court delays and slow judgements are addressed, your wonderful work might be undermined by a similar situation to those who have equally won their cases but have been compromised at the point of enforcement, especially if the Banks are coming under increasing pressure re their liquidity. All too often the administration is hampered to the extent that justice is ultimately denied, and I think court delays play a significant part in this scenario. It would be heartbreaking to witness all your work (and others) go to waste, if this is not addressed ASAP, especially if others are waiting in the wings to follow your example.

Hi Ads

Believe me, we are working as fast as possible on this matter.

It has taken a long time, countless hours, sleepless nights and a huge amount of 'voluntary' work to reach the point where we have 500 pages of evidence and an action group from one development consisting of 63 individual purchasers.

When you consider on our development (Finca Parcs) there were around 300 individual purchasers who had reserved and of this around 80-85 purchasers do not have Bank Guarantees.  So for us to have 63 out of 80-85 is a fantastic result.  When you consider most of these purchasers are totally independent from each other, have never met one and other and have no connections, it has been a very difficult task to get them all together.

It has also been a massive task to get all their individual documents, ID, POA's etc collated and forwarded to the legal team.

As group leader/co-ordinator I have had to dedicate an unbelieveable amount of time to this matter and that committment has to continue right to the end.  Regular updates on our situation have to be produced and emailed to the group and I am the link between the legal team and the group members.  So I handle all the questions, queries etc regarding costs, POA, timescales etc............

As well as moving forward with our action, we will also use our 'group strength' to get our voice heard by the powers that be so they realise that this is a massive issue that does not only affect 63 purchasers at Finca Parcs but many thousands on developments throughout Spain.

Our group is represented by a pro-active and very passionate legal team who have engaged the services of a top civil law professor who is working on the case with us.

I think it needed a large group action to have the best chance of success in a case like this.  It is very easy for the Banks and Courts to fight against one individual - but a large group with a lot of evidence and much public attention is harder (hopefully) for them to fight.

Kind regards

Keith

I sincerely wish you well Keith and don't doubt your commitment, abilities and work ethic, in fact I consider you quite a star to be honest! And of course I want this action to be ultimately successful.

Nevertheless my concerns lie with the blimin court system which as we all know is dire as we speak. You  and the legal team are obviously working flat out but unfortunately the number of cases stuck in the legal system has resulted in massive delays, which we appear to have little control over given the government has not, to my knowledge, applied any extra resources to deal with the problems. Therefore the worry is that the Banks may not have sufficient liquidity resource to meet the claims if the situation deteriorates in the interim (as has occurred with developers). Especially if this results in an enforcement process which in my experience takes an inordinate amount of time to push through the courts once again.

I hope you don't mind me being devil's advocate here, but this is something that many have experienced to date so there is a lingering worry that this may happen again.

Keith110

I'd like to add a huge WELL DONE for the work you have put in so far. Our case was two and a half years from being accepted by the courts to sentence being passed in our favour. Despite the courts being fully aware of how fragile the situation of the developer, it made no difference. The courts had 18 months to arrange the hearing and pass sentence on a very clear case before the developer went under, can you imagine my frustration???, so all we are now is non preffered creditors.

Sorry folks but felt obliged to pass this on.

A friend of mine has a place in Spain and has recently incurred LOADS of problems with damp in her home. Turns out that water had been coming into the property and had gone unnoticed for some time (the smell gave it away). They had all manner of people come in to identify the cause but eventually (after using some infra red equipment) they found that no membranes had been used. The guys who came to do the remedial work said that many properties in the Southern Costas were proving to be a problem (in other words this was no one-off), as they had not been built to withstand continual rain (the inference here being that the Northern Costas had different building standards). She's had to have the spores dealt with (by some gas process?) and there's been a significant amount of mess and inconvenience, not to mention expense in solving the problem.

I wonder if many have found this to be a problem, given the changing weather patterns (more consistent rain) and wondered if there were any moves within the industry to correct this problem? I suspect it's another check required before buying any property, but how do you check for this? Could it be picked up from a general survey of the property?

She also spoke of the need to review how outside cables were protected from the heavy rains that come down from the mountains. Pretty basic requirements I would have thought, but apparently not so in Spain?

Ads,

As you said "as they had not been built to withstand continual rain"

I'm not surprised, as this is the first year in recorded history in the Southern Costas, especially the Costa Del Sol, have had so much rain!

The properties are built to keep cool during the long, very hot summers, and are not designed for Northern European weather!

Having said that, there should always be a membrane under roof and terrace tiles.

When you buy a property, if it is a new build, then you have one year to sort out problems you can see, and two years for problems you can't! The later pertaining to your friends problem!

And as you said "Pretty basic requirements I would have thought, but apparently not so in Spain?"

As most people are aware, building regulations are completely different here in Spain, however I'm not defending them, on the contrary, but you just have to use common sense when you buy property and make sure you complete a snag list that includes any outside wiring that is deemed unsafe by UK Building Regs.

Simple method to employ after you've paid the deposit, get it all written into the contract, as I did, that all is done before you complete.

Do you see it as unlikely that buidling standards in Spain will be reviewed in light of changing weather patterns then? Is the inference that this is only a one-off season of wet weather, as I can remember many years back (late 70's I think) my Aunty describing similar floods when she owned a property in Mijas. Surely this has been happening for years now and you wonder how bad it has to get before the government take action?

Do you think it all comes down to keeping developer costs down at the end of the day, as in all honesty this is false economy? I understand your advice re contract details being essential, but the thought of having to claim against the developer if they didn't "make good" makes my blood run cold given events of late. It's like closing the door after the horse has bolted, so I was hoping that there may be some LEGAL move within the industry to address these issues on a more general basis, especially the general infrastructure. It could provide worthwhile employment for many out of work in the construction industry right now! Trouble is presumably regions have little money to address these issues (unless they obtain grants from the EU but that's a touchy subject.)

A national plan might be called for to weigh up the pros and cons???????? For instance in Turkey recently we noticed that loads of properties were using solar energy, presumably as a directive from government? If only politicians could be forward thinking and work together to establish useful areas of growth that ultimately benefit an economy instead of looking to the here and now all the time, or looking to line their own pockets with their hidden agendas. Better not go there however.....

It's always rained in Andalucia and often very heavy.  So I don't know why property is not waterproofed.  I think it's just a way for builders to cut costs and do things on the cheap.

Sanchez1/ads

yes, talking to one or two builders, the weather issue is little more than an excuse for building crap as cheap as possible.  The building reg's are often very poor compared to UK.  Writing reg's in to a contract would seem a good idea as Techno mentioned, but you have to have the know how and faith! that everything will be done to a good standard.  As with many other things in Spain, you can't take for granted that regulation or justice if you do have a problem, will be the common sense issue you might expect?.

So. now everyone is an absolute expert on Spanish building regulations?  I couldn't possibly comment as I, along with most of you, have no idea what these regulations are.  My two properties in Spain, and one of them one of the cheapo put-em-up quick builds, have had no problems with leaks at all despite the extreme weather conditions.

Ads, you talk about solar enery in Turkey and allude to the fact that Spain is being left behind.  You may wish to know that Spain is the most advanced country in the whole of Europe for the provision of solar energy and has, since 2004, allowed these panels to be connected to the national grid.  Pointless simply stating things without backing them up, no matter how good it makes you feel.

Just have a quick look around the old interweb thingy and see how many sites and posts there are regarding the corruption in the building industry in Turkey including the shoddy materials being used.  This is a problem by no means unique to Spain, although I realise that, as it affects you, you will notice it more. 

Wiring?  Yes, my cheapo flat looked a bit basic with no earthing to the plumbing, cheap (and, in my opinion, quite dangerous) plug sockets etc.  However, my house has the top of the range fittings, all plumbing earthed, double poled non-ring mains (unlike that in UK which is, again in my opinion, quite dangerous).  And so on.

The lesson is, of course, to do your homework.

Now, if only they would start fitting guttering to the down pipes and a decent system for rainwater run off.  Now that would be something to crow about.

Hi everyone, been away for a bit and come back to lots of bad news it seems!

And this looks like another opportunity to winge about the coast.  Properties in Southern Spain were never built to withstand the rain levels we have seen here on the Costa Del Sol, as I am sure the same goes for all the other European Countries that also suffered the large amount of rainfall.

We have a villa which is 30 years old and 2 apartments which are 5 years old, which suffered the most damage do you think?  Both of them did! 

The villa because the guttering around the property was inadequate to move the water away, therefore one wall took the main brunt of the water, permeating right through to the interior bedroom wall, and our top terrace where the sealant on the grouting was virtually eroded by the rain and therefore came through the ceiling in the bedroom.  Now I am pretty sure we don't have membrane under our tiles, but is that down to a bad builder? or the current building regulations here in Spain?

The apartment was built by one of the biggest Spanish Landowners here on the Costa Del Sol, who rule to thumb, builds very good quality apartments.  Our apartment did not flood but our underground storage room did as did all of them in our block.  This was because when the development was built, it was built backing into a small mountain, and they never anticipated the amount of rainfall would create vast quantities of mud sliding down the mountain, through the vents in the storage room and in effect coming up and flooding the lifts also.  In a nutshell when the development was built, there were no rules or regulations that stated they had to allow for "run off" for water should bad weather happen.  I know this because we were shown the plans.

So we have and probably will still incur costs to get the villa sorted, dryed out for the Summer and now "Winter proofed", but I cant blame the builders as they were building to regulations they were given and continue to be given.  These changes have to come from above, whoever that is in the Government or the EU.  The Building Regulations here in Spain pale into insignificance in comparison to the UK and I think even if they change in the future they will never match what most of us are all used to.  WE can take nothing for granted living here.

And before you all start jumping down my throat, I am not defending any cowboy builders or developers that have built on the Costas, but get fed up with coming onto this website, looking forward to engaging in discussions and seeing more and more posts that make me just want to log out again.