Is It The Corrupt System or Misguided Naive Buyers ??

As someone planning to buy & retire in Spain, I have listened objectively to both sides:

1) The administrative/judicial system in Spain is inherently corrupt which is why many expat property buyers get ripped off !!

or

2) Most expat buyers are fine provided they apply rigid due deligence, including hiring honest competent professional assistance.

Which side is more correct ?

Cheers,

Jon

Interested to hear opinions on this.

i know lots of people that are very happy and had no problems at all.
Many more happy than uphappy.

But then ones that got ripped off give me updates on how they are progressing with their cases often.

The ones that are happy just get on with life.

This is not an objective forum.

This is a forum that ranks in google for names of urbanizations where for whatever reason many people lost their life savings.
So people come to this forum that are unhappy and trying to recover money.

The ones that are living in their houses are drinking champagne and living life.

Jon07

Don't make the mistake of thinking a Spanish lawyer will behave or apply the same extended duty of care as would a UK solicitor.

There is no enforced code of professional conduct and the Spanish colegios will not properly investigte complaints and strike off bad lawyers.

Example - Spanish colegios accept the practice of stealing client monies and will not even strike off a lawyer for doing so. At best they will tell him he should really give back the money.

So select your lawyer very carefully and make sure you stay on top of the matter yourself.

Avoid litigation by not doing being stupid or naive and don't trust anyone .....

"Many more happy than uphappy"

Two related questions in this regard;

1) Do we have any rough guesstimate of the % of expats who have been seriously ripped off i.e is it likely to be 5% - 10% - 25% ??

2) Are these more or less likely to be prudent well informed people who apply caveat emptor ??

I am new to this Forum & simply trying to establish the facts.

Cheers,

Jon

Jon07

I would go as high as 25% mainly due to the fact that the worst agents/lawyers are the ones that advertise the most.

In my opinion many made the mistake of believing business in Spain was similar to that in UK and becuase of language placed too much trust in the wrong people.

Many have been ripped off equally by their fellow countrymen as by the Spanish.

What I find most annoying is that the colegio de abogados will not regulate their members - that would be a big starting point - a strong disciplinary committee that would investigate in a timely manner and publish decisions and strike off bad members.

Solicitor training in Spain is also very poor and the fact that  there is so many one man/woman law firms does not help in team work and building experience etc.

In general Spanish lawyers do not work well together in terms of sharing knowledge of lobbying not helped by the fact that there are 120 colegios so very disorganised. 

If as suggested, 1 in every 4 Expat buyers are being seriously ripped off  - then there clearly is a problem !!!!!!

Jon07 - I guess it depends on your definition of being seriously ripped.

Some are simply being ripped off by the tax office imposing artifial values on either buyer or seller to extract more tax.

At the moment NIE numbers are not being issued within the 5 day period as stipulated by decreto 577/2011 and the tax office say that is our fault and we must now pay penalties for being late in making tax payments.

Another example the police issue a wrong NIE and they say that is our fault and we must pay a fee to have the number corrected. We have no access to their data base to confirm the accuracy of the number issued. But if we don't pay the fee they will not re-issue the number and the tax office will not register and we cannot pay the tax and then PENALTY.

It is the blank face of the Spanish civil servant that is most infuriating.

and today I just harp on about tax - will I start on the courts and how that has led to people being ripped off ........

Jon07:

I think Willy may be right in saying that this is not an objective forum. And an awful ot of generalising goes on.  Not to mention the "should" and "must" brigade.

I am sure you will get an accurate statistic for the "ripped-offs" from Ruth or Keith, perhaps from Justin himself.

You will of course get bad apples here the same as eerywhere else. 

Patricia

My view is based on my experience of people I meet and the business I conduct in Spain.

If we were talking about jsut being ripped off then I would say practically everyone is being ripped off one way or another in Spain - ie high bank charges whatever....

Well, Jon, there you have it!

The dogma is written in stone. LMAO

I am sure you are now thinking of some other venue for your retirement home.  I'm thinking, maybe, Tottenham?

Patricia

FARO's allegations below are extremely disturbing i.e. :

1) One in every four Expat property buyers are being seriously ripped off !!

2) The other 75% are ripped off to a lesser extent !!

Don't fancy my chances with above odds. Perhaps, I should cancel my October trip & remain safe in OZ.

Cheers,

Jon

Its hard to explain and harder to understand.

There are many people who bought away from the southern COAST of spain that had no problems.
But when you have a problem in spain it can turn up many years later.
So everything was fine and they didnt get ripped off.

On UK tv several years ago all the tv programs were about moving to spain for a btter life and everyone was talking about buying in spain.
It was a feeding frenzy.

A real estate agent in murcia told me he was getitng 50 leads a week through his website and people were sending him 50k just to get in on the boom and make some of this money.

Sending 50k for a piece of land with a promise to buy a house that was going to be built.
These people were greeedy and took a risk. They lost.

Lots of people were just plain stupid and were complete fools in a goldrush.
Others were just plain foolish taking mortgages based on the fact that they would buy a property offplan for a low price with a mortgate they could never afford with a low 2 year payment holiday but it didnt matter because like everyone else they would sell the property before the payments went to high and cash in.

The banks would lend whatever you wanted and it was standard to overvalue and give you more than you needed.

When you have a tiny problem in spain like one piece of paperwork you need to get you can go to many different offices to speak to lots of different people who shrug their shoulders and  we are now seeing people trying to get one single document for 7 years.

People took things at face value and when they got paperwork they assumed it was all legal.

They never thought that a corrupt government official would be rubber stamping things because his brother owned the development.

But when you go to check on paperwork in spain you can go to 4 different offices on 4 different days and they will say its fine.
The official will just flick it back and you and say NO PROBLEM.
But when you ask for a signed letter saying its fine from them they just shrug.

On the 5th day in the 5th day another official will refuse to accept the paperwork because its incorrect.

You need go head to head a few time trying to sort a problem in spain to really understand it.

Also debts in spain just build up on your property without anyone telling you.
It is your reponsibility to find out if you have a debt but how can you chase up on something that you may have or may not have that you dont know what it is if you dont know whether you have it.

So it could be said the other 75% that didnt get ripped off could possibly because they havent tried to sell yet.

I am not biased and i just say what i see.

Bigwilly's pretty much sums up the situation.

But don't be put off - just make sure you know what it is you are getting into - and then be very careful and double or triple check everything and expect  2-3 different opinions and accept there might not be a right answer.

Also if you don't want to work here then it's mabye not so bad. It's very difficult country and in many ways very similar to conducting business in China, Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam etc in that correuption is at that level.

Many complain but they still live here for one reason or another.

 All the figures quoted are purely and utterly guesswork.  1 in 4 ripped off?  Doubt if it is even 1 in10, to tell you the truth.

You need a good, reliable builder cum developer.  Most of the problems have been caused by the fly-by-night builders who operate out of show homes or caravans.  I agree, there are problems.  This site, however, (as has been stated) attracts those who have been conned in one way or another or have not done things properly.  Other sites don't seem to have any of the problems mentioned here.

Again, I can give two examples.  Technologica Urbanistica was a builder used extensively by UK based agents, Atlas etc.  After building their houses and not paying off mortgages they caused many problems and many people had, and still have, problems.  This company went bust but still continues to trade despite having built hundreds of houses and leaving the buyers in trouble.

However, I now live in an area where the builder/developer has constructed thousands of properties and no one has had any problems.  Well built, high quality (even got earth strips to the plumbing) plus a well established office where problems are handled efficiently and quickly.  

On the other hand, some of the buyers were definitely at fault.  The couple that bought land from a guy in a pub next door to an estate agent, for example, built a house on it and then wondered why the authorities told him to pull it down as it was on rural land.  Stories like that were commonplace some years ago.

Advice: Pick a good, well established builder with proper offices.  Always take out a mortgage regardless if this is only 10% as the banks will not allow a sale to go through unless everything is correct.  They are far more thorough than the solicitors.  AlwaYS choose your own solicitor, not one the agent is trying to make you use.

Be objective and look at other chat sites pertinent to the area you want to buy in.  There are dozens of them around and most are full of excellent advice and help.  

Spain has a lot to offer but it is not a free ride.  Jobs are hard to come by especially if you don't speak the language.  Things are done differently here and most people are not aware of these differences and try to equate it with the UK system which they have been brought up with and know intimately.  But it is different and you must be aware of that.  

The lifestyle here is great as is the food.  I would like to thank some on this site for giving good advice and I have heeded that.  

First time, no advice and made mistakes.  Second time, smooth as a baby's bum and everything has gone perfectly.  It's a great place and I haven't even been ripped off by other expats, either.  Enjoy and take a lot of what is said with a pinch of salt.

Absolutely agree with your post, Bob.

"Spain has a lot to offer but it is not a free ride.  Jobs are hard to come by especially if you don't speak the language.  Things are done differently here and most people are not aware of these differences and try to equate it with the UK system which they have been brought up with and know intimately.  But it is different and you must be aware of that."

And I further agree that the rants should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I never tire of telling people to get themselves an independent lawyer.  More importantly, listen to what he or she has to say, take notes, ask questions, and get the lawyer's advice in writing.  A good law firm will keep you informed in writing on progress.  Insist that they do so.

Patricia

bobaol - but you are also saying you need to have your wits about you. I do not agree with your mortgage comment just find a good lawyer. We have examples of many who thought the banks had some responsibility for fist occupation licence or whatever but a few years back banks were advancing money rather casually and their gestoria was only concerned with registering the mortgage and not the total legality of the property. The bank look at your ability to repay, valuation report, nota simple and that's about it. But there is no way you can a mortgage equates to legal protection?

Well we are very happy with our apartment and as far as I know we were not ripped of.  We bought 5 years ago and we received all the legal paperwork. You can only speak as you find.

But can I ask Jon07 why you want to leave Sydney? I have never been but know lots of people that have and they really loved it there, although our grandaughter said renting somewhere was expensive.    Would another part of Oz not suit you? Just a thought.

Patricia

Campana

How are people to find these good independent lawyers?

Also many Spanish lawyers are very hesitant to put at all anything in writing.

bob:  claiming that a bank will only give a mortgage on fully legal properties is wrong.

There are plenty of buyers on Trampolin Hills for example, who have mortgages on unbuilt houses, on land the developer doesn't own & with no building licenses in place, yet various banks have given out mortgages.

In one case a mortgage was given to 2 separate buyers of the same property, paid out to the developer who then gave the keys to the first couple to turn up! The 2nd buyer who arrived to collect the keys lost out.

The house is illegal, the development is illegal & the bank guarantees are fake!

No matter how careful you are, no matter how many checks you make, even if your property is 100% legal, a political decision can be taken years later to make your place illegal & you will lose out & you will not be paid any compensation.

 I certainly don't feel ripped off either - in spite of property values plummeting.  In fact, I have been more ripped off by poor workmanship and unbelievably bad plumbing when buying property here in the UK - sometimes  from some of the biggest developers.  But, as I have said before, buying property which is not your main home is speculation, and all property speculation carries a risk.   I still cannot believe the number of people who bought multiple properties - intelligent, professional people.  In Spain,just like in the UK, housing became an obscene bonanza - the latest get rich quick thing, only lots of people didn't get rich, because they went in too late and everything crashed.   I can honestly say I am so glad some of those horrendous thousand house sites did not get built -they really were starting to litter the landscape.      I have no doubt, that if people had completed in places like Almanzora country club, they would have quickly found that the properties were not good value for money.  If the demand for smaller and smaller properties is there - the builder will keep putting them up - whatever country you are in.  So, corrupt system or misguided buyers - a bit of both I guess.  Where there is a lot of money to be made there will be corruption and backhanders, and that happens in the UK as well.  The Spanish legal system has been unable to cope with the backlog of cases, and this is most definitely a problem.  Some buyers most definitely did leave their brains behind when they went to look at property.  I did the same when I went looking for property in the USA - and I consider myself lucky that I got out before the meltdown!!  However, I certainly did not feel let down by the system or the builders in the USA, and I really don't in Spain either.