New rules on NIE and Residencia

Whilst reading this I thought this cannot be possible but then I realised this is Spain so yes it can.  How ridiculous. So what I would like to know is they don´t accept all your paperwork for income - what are they going to do?  Deport you?  Are you renting?  Do you own your own house here?

We are now permanent having bought our apartment (no mortgage) in 2010 and coming out for a few weeks at a time until I took early retirement at the end of 2011. Then in October 2012 we moved out here for good.

There are plenty of ex pats who are ignoring all of the rules and regulations but we decided we would do it right from the start but they don't make it easy. I think it's probably because there is no central guidance as to what documents are acceptable and as time goes on no doubt there may be more acceptance of UK or other European evidence of income.

A good point though as to what they would do if they do not accept our evidence - probably pursue us now that we have taken the first step and goodness knows what they might come up with.

I had a really awkward one too whom I nearly came to blows with.  He tried to send me to Cadiz where my original residencia was taken out (it had lapsed).  I said no, you can do it and he did but what an arse he was.  Anyway he took all our pension papers from Newcastle and refused to do copys.  Now we need them to get finance for a car, so will need to go back or ask  Newcastle for duplicates.

First off... welcome to Spain. You have provided a striking example of the near-anarchy and gross incompetence that applies in some of these offices.

First off, they are obliged to take account of your full resources. This can include money on deposit, stocks, shares, property of any kind, and even the limit on your credit card. All of this is spelled out in crystal clarity in the relevant Diectives. The idiot you were trying to deal with clearly knows nothing of this, however.

In very, very simple terms: to be denied you have to be below the state poverty level. To have such a low income and such a lack of resources that you would qualify for State aid. It really is that simple. That is the whole purpose of the wording of the Directive.

It is self-evidently idiocy in the extreme to suggest this applies to you... the person behind the desk was being (in classic Spanish style) as difficult as humanly possible.

This is all available (in plain English and plain Spanish) in the EU's excellent little guidebook on your right of free movement. See page 19:

ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/citizenship/docs/guide_free_movement_low.pdf

The 'resources' conditions are fully spelled out.

I would contact SOLVIT over this and put in a formal complaint and a request for direct assistance. The "translation of a bank statement bit" is yet more pure drivel. Diabolical!

This is the link you need to obtain help from SOLVIT with this case:

webgate.ec.europa.eu/solvit/application/index.cfm

If you need any further info, feel free to PM me.

Well... a translation won't help with that either, will it? The number is not there to be translated...

Most rational people would be able tie it to the name by the address... same address as on the UK driving license, for example, or UK social security documents.

I had no problem doing precisely that in the US (even with the notoriously fussy immigration services there), and even Egypt managed it without any fuss in less than 2 minutes, but hey... this is Spain, where the power-crazed pen-pushers are carrying on in the best Franco traditions.....

They also seem to be missing the point in this case that the people have property assets free of mortgages. These must be taken into account. It is not merely "income" based, but asset based. If you have sufficient income (or assets) or even access to third party funds that would exclude you from claiming Spanish Social Security, then they have no cause - and no right - to deny you. None at all. Further, even if they do deny you, they cannot expel you without proving (not merely claiming) that you are an unreasonable burnden on the State. The ECJ has set quite a high bar on that. If you have never claimed Social Security here, they have zero chance of proving anything of the sort.

Johnzx, I agree but in fact the UK banks statements had had the addresses changed to show the exact address where we now live in Spain so I rather hoped that would work.

Like most bureaucrasies it depends on how the person you are dealing with interprets the rules or guidelines and I think we got the wrong one on the day. It should have been obvious to any idiot that we have resources well above those required but let's see what happens next. I will be interested to see how they translate a P60 and indeed how much it will cost to be stamped by a Traductor-Intérprete Jurado.

I have checked the links and am tempted to use the solvit link but another part of me says it will just rock the boat, if only my Spanish was better and it is improving I would have argued my own case at the desk, whereas the interpreter / friend who came with me didn't really understand the situation himself. In UK I have taken on bureaucrasy but unless you are prepared to be dogged about they will usually wear you down until you just give up and I suspect it might be the same here except Solvit would do it on your behalf.

The guidebook states quite clearly what is necessary and why but is still open to interpretation I suppose. I do wonder if we had a balance in our Spanish bank of say €10,000.00 would that count or does it have be evidence of regular income.

I do like 66d35's response though, very eloquent and spot on. I will let you know what I decide to do and up to now we haven't had a problem, the town hall have been helpful etc , signed on the Padron, arranged all the usual utilities by direct debit and are attending the free Spanish lessons organised by the Ayuntamiento etc all quite smoothly.

Incidentally, In the queue we seemed to be the only Europeans there as it looked like mostly non EU types!

Most rational people would be able tie it to the name by the address

I will be interested to see how they translate a P60 and indeed how much it will cost to be stamped by a Traductor-Intérprete Jurado

They are obliged to charge at a set price, by the word.

The law does not specify the documents that can be used, nor the format they should be in. It really is down to whether you get someone who is going out of their way to be as awkward as possible, which in this case, it sounds like they are. I know other people who have had UK bank statements accepted without any complaint whatever.

On a previous page, I think team GB said they had used  a relative's address in the UK for the wife's driving licence, as she lived in Sapin. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it fraudulent to mislead authorities by using a false address?

https://www.gov.uk/change-address-driving-licence

Says:-

If you’re moving abroad, you can’t register your new address on your British driving licence. Contact the driving licence authority in your new country of residence.

Yes Gus, if you are right, looks like  a criminal offence.

Deliberate use of a false address on a UK driving license is indeed an offence. So is failure to notify a change of address.

Note, however, that you are not required to notify a change to a non-UK address (and they cannot even process one) . Your license remains valid until it expires or is lost (requiring a replacement).

fyfin , you would be better off using the Solvit process. don't worry about it rocking the boat. You have a lifejacket whereas they, being on the wrong side of EU rules don't.

I would also ask for the 'hojas de reclamación' on your return before even starting any new dialogue with them & make a complaint at least on the grounds that they are asking you to

A) supply information that they would not ask a Spanish national to supply. This is illegal under EU rules. You cannot be asked to supply anything that a spanish national would not be asked for. They supplied that to me in writing. Your second complaint ,should be 

B)  also supplied to me in writing through the Solvit process is that they state that all eu soc.sec. hacienda /tax offices have the ability to converse with each other & if they require additional documentation they should contact their opposite numbers in the  relevant country directly . 

"THE EU CITIZEN SHOULD NOT BE ASKED TO PROVIDE INFORMATION THAT THE OFFICE CAN COLLECT THEMSELVES.  "                          

: & that is exactly how they expressed it & instructed me to make an official complaint. You should not be being asked to supply info & be running around. That is what they are paid to do.

You can use the solvit process to ask questions exactly as you have done on here & they will reply within 10 days. Yoiu can also make a second request for them to work on your behalf.

The mere request for the 'hojas' & preferably ask also for the manager  should be enough to straighten out even the most obnoxious piece of work. Remember also that you cannot make to many complaints & if you can actually furnish the name of said misery & put ii in every complaint , so much the better.

** EDITED - Against forum rules **

Well what a difference a day makes - we went back to Almeria Oficina de Extranjeros and took no interpreter with us so used our limited Spanish and this time we got a lais back guy who took a look at our documents and said "No problemas" and we were in there for about 3 minutes. Back in 10 days to collect our certificates or cards or whatever they are now. They will write to us to let us know when they are ready.

I think the delay gives someone time to check our details which of course didn't happen previously.

I didn't go down the solvit route as I decided to give them another chance, if only I had got this guy last time I suspect we wouldn't have had a problem.

On a more positive note and completely off thread I went to our Ayuntamiento and spoke to a nice lady on Tuesday about a broken pavement near our apartment block and she made a phone call and told me it would be fixed either Wednesday or Thursday and this morning lo and behold it was fixed and properly too! I called in the Town Hall and thanked her for the prompt response.

I'm sure that I read somewhere that if you could show that you had 8740 Pounds/Euros or there abouts, in your (Spanish I assume) bank account they would be happy and also to show you had health insurance.  How does it work then that you are (I think) entitled to around 2 years free healthcare if you get the appropriate form from the pension guys in Newcastle.  (Sorry seem to have lost my brain cell this afternoon!)Would you show the form and that be ok?  Curious as we will need to know whether or not we can rely on the two years or whether to take out Health Insurance immediately.

I can tell you that it was a very simple process to get the S1 form from Newcastle . All I did was telephone and explain that I had moved to Spain but they wanted to send the forms to a UK address and as I hadn't rented my house out at that time I just used my old address. They give you 2 years worth of cover from when you last worked (made contributions).

I think you're probably right about having a particular amount in a Spanish bank a/c but unfortunately we didn't realise that at the time otherwise we could have transferred the cash and the whole process would have been a lot easier as we're still waiting for their letter to confirm all is OK and to go back and collect our "Residencias".

I can't remember the exact amount I was told but it was around €5000 for a single person and €8600 for a couple. With hindsight I wish we had transferred the money anyway as the rate is so much lower now.