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Doesn't surprise me - strangely the S1 form (proof of healthcare) is printed in English and is accepted but proof of income had to be translated in our case (at Almeria). If the health insurance is taken out in Spain do they not give you a Spanish copy as well? Just wondered as we might have to take insurance out as the S1 only runs to January 2014 and I'm not 65 until July 2016. It won't matter from "Residencia" point of view as we now have it but I'm curious as to why they wouldn't supply the health insurance certificate in Spanish.
I still think it's ridiculous that someone who has paid into their own country's health scheme for long enough to get a full state pension (40 years in my case), is not entitled to free health care in either their country of residence or country where the contributions were paid.
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The strange thing is they told our Gestor that all we needed was a certificate from the bank to show we had sufficient resources, our passports , NIE numbers and the padron. We had all of these and took the health insurance just in case. The " officer" in charge barely looked at any of it; he dismissed the whole application because the insurance was in English. We insured through " Staysure" and have asked them if a translation is available. It is not their fault that we dealt with them in English; I would have been worried if the insurance was in Spanish as we would not have known the details of the coverage. Given the Spanish economy, how come they don' t want us to pay taxes here???? This was in the Fuengirola Commisariat- Be warned!!
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'I still think it's ridiculous that someone who has paid into their own country's health scheme for long enough to get a full state pension (40 years in my case), is not entitled to free health care in either their country of residence or country where the contributions were paid. You would be entitled to return for treatment under the proposals currently underr consultation. https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/migrants-and-overseas-visitors-use-of-the-nhs
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Paying taxes is a completely different ball game I'm afraid and El Cid has lots of useful info on that. "Residencia" (I know it's not really but everyone calls it that) or in fact registering at the Foreigners Office is a requirement by Spain after you have been here 3 months. You could leave for one day before the 3 months is up and come back in 2 days and do it all again, so essentially you could live in Spain for 360 days in a year and never have to sign on the Foreigners register.
Well, at least, that's my understanding, but in reality you wouldn't want to do that if you were entitled to free healthcare (e.g. because you have an S1) otherwise you couldn't register your S1 without the little green certificate of registration.
Confused, not surprising - and as for paying taxes most of the Spanish try to avoid that anyway, they only tend to pay if they are forced to!!
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Kathyslad, thanks for link - 7 years seems a bit short but they acknowledge their generosity to other immigrants so I suppose it's a bit of a clampdown for them, but at least a step in the right direction for some of us.
When I reach retirement age I will be OK but if they don't implement these proposals then I still won't be liable for free healthcare in UK despite the fact that 15 other EU countries already do it http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/retire/healthcare/index_en.htm
Still and all I'm happy - just like a moan now and again!
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Hi 66 . Solvit have just confirmed that documentation MUST be translated into Spanish unless it is a standard EU form ( like the S1) It may be an infraction if a standard form is asked to be translated. So, basically, if you are here for 3 months or more, and below state pension age , you must register but you also must have a bank certificate showing you have sufficient funds and you must have a Spanish translation of comprehensive health insurance or they won't register you but they can't deport you either. I am faced with paying a large sum for a translation or " flying under the radar" like so many others. I only want to do the right thing- why is it so difficult????.
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That's what we found at Almeria Oficina de Extranjeros, although it does appear it might be different at Police Stations. I suppose if it's a large document it will cost a fair amount. Maybe if there was just a certificate stating the cover that could be translated.
I do understand your frustrations especially knowing as I do, so many people not bothering to register at all.
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Hi Fyfin, Unfortunately they won't accept a translation of the certificate alone because they want to see the cover details to ensure it is comprehensive. As you say , I fear it could cost hundreds. Our Gestor has told me they are getting tight on registering people now; how does that square with the legal requirement to register????.
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It may be well worth contacting the insurance company and requesting a Spanish translation of the policy. They should have this. This would at least avoid multiple people paying again and again for a copy of the same thing - which is sheer madness.
One of the founding principles of the entire issue of free movement was to "remove administative burdens" on those relocating within EU countries. Spain seems determined to do the precise opposite, and in that sense, I do feel there is a strong case for infringement.
The alternative is not to register. You can be fined - once. It does not affect your real, actual, rights to residence which are granted by Treaty (not by Spain). There is no direct linkage between 'registration' and any acquired right to residence. It is a separate issue.
I would imagine with the general level of obstruction being demonstrated, fewer and fewer people will bother. Failure to do so does not in any way invalidate your entitlement to be here, remain here, work here or anything else. After 5 years presence/residence, you would in any event be entitled to permanant resident status - and that is unconditonal. You could even demand a certificate to that effect (and they cannot demand proof of anything).
I have no doubt this is a deliberate, calculated policy and is totally outside the spirit and intent of the relevant EU regulations.
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I think the problem will be that it is a UK company policy so they won't offer a translation, I'm just glad I managed to get an S1 form (about the only thing that is accepted without translation). Weirdly it expires in 2014 but as I aleady have registered now I don't have to worry about it, except of course I will have no health cover until I am 65.
Not registering is an option, but I guess the poster, like myself, is someone who likes to do everything that they believe to be legally and morally right irrespective of the inherent stupidity of some of the rules. In my case I had to register otherwise I couldn't register the S1 and thus get on the healthcare system albeit for a short time !!!!
In fact our friends are now in the process of attempting to register using the EX-18 form etc and we are helping them, they are retired (just) and as one of them receives a UK state pension paid into his Spanish bank a/c, it should be straightforward, but I don't believe it for a second. Getting the bank to provide proof that will satisfy the Oficina de Extranjeros is proving to be difficult, apparently they want some sort of letter but all the bank will provide is a certificate to say the account has been opened since 2005 and a statement to show 3 pension payments in. I have a feeling that won't work at Almeria unless they have relaxed their rules since we did it.
They need to register for the same reason as us, their S1 forms will not be accepted at the INSS office unless they have registered! Happy Days!
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My insurance company has provided me with a Spanish version of the certificate but my wife's company does not offer a translation at all.MyGestor is trying to get a definitive answer from the police station today before we look at the costs of translation.
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There is a very interesting technical point here.
This concerns the legality (under EU Directives) of requiring production of a certificate of entry on the EU Citizens register in order to qualify for services. These services should - by law - be made availble to residents on the basis of entitlement set out in the Directive. This is covered under Article 25:
Article 25
General provisions concerning residence documents
1. Possession of a registration certificate as referred to in Article 8, of a document certifying permanent residence, of a certificate attesting submission of an application for a family member residence card, of a residence card or of a permanent residence card, may under no circumstances be made a precondition for the exercise of a right or the completion of an administrative formality, as entitlement to rights may be attested by any other means of proof.
In short - requiring production of such a certificate before you are allowed to 'qualify' for any service or right which you have entitlement to under general EU law is not lawful, and they should not be doing this. They are doing it, of course.
I have long said that when they lost the 'Residencia' case, they instead tried to resurrect its function by manipulating and distorting the Registration process. I think the evidence for this is overwhelming.
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Getting the bank to provide proof that will satisfy the Oficina de Extranjeros is proving to be difficult, apparently they want some sort of letter but all the bank will provide is a certificate to say the account has been opened since 2005 and a statement to show 3 pension payments in. I have a feeling that won't work at Almeria unless they have relaxed their rules since we did it.
The rules in this case are not set by Almeria, but by the EU Directive which is crystal clear that 'sufficient resources' is not merely restricted to income.
"Accreditation of possession of sufficient resources, either by regular income, including income from work or otherwise, or ownership of an estate, shall be by any mode of proof recognized in law, such as title deeds, certified checks , obtaining supporting documentation for capital income or credit cards, bringing in the latter case an updated bank certificate certifying the amount available as of that credit card"
Cited from Royal Decree.
European rulings on this topic of 'sufficient resources'.
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Indeed I can see that by reading the info on the link, although in my friends's cases the only thing that would work is the income from the husband's state pension. They do own their apartment but I have no doubt that just taking the escritura wouldn't work. I just hope that the documents we take will be classed as satisfactory proof. I think the clincher will be an officially translated later from DWP in UK stating his weekly income from State pension.
Something else I noticed that it stated " Member States may require that documents be translated, notarised or legalised where the national authority concerned cannot understand the language in which the particular document is written, or have a suspicion about the authenticity of the issuing authority." BUT it only mentioned this in relation to residence cards for third world family members.
Is this another ruse or can it be applied to EU members as well as indxeed the Spanish have done, except for S1 forms.
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Indeed I can see that by reading the info on the link, although in my friends's cases the only thing that would work is the income from the husband's state pension. They do own their apartment but I have no doubt that just taking the escritura wouldn't work. I just hope that the documents we take will be classed as satisfactory proof. I think the clincher will be an officially translated later from DWP in UK stating his weekly income from State pension.
Something else I noticed that it stated " Member States may require that documents be translated, notarised or legalised where the national authority concerned cannot understand the language in which the particular document is written, or have a suspicion about the authenticity of the issuing authority." BUT it only mentioned this in relation to residence cards for third world family members.
Is this another ruse or can it be applied to EU members as well as indxeed the Spanish have done, except for S1 forms.
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Well, finally succeeded in registering!! The translation of the insurance cost € 490 plus the gestor's fees, plus two lots of bank certificates etc.They didn't even look at the translation; it could have said anything!!!
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Well, unfortunately our friends failed to get registered as they would not accept the marriage certificate. The husband got his but his wife has to have an up to date marriage certificate to prove she is a genuine dependant. This is despite Nota Simple showing joint ownership, joint bank account, padron showing same surnames and same addresses and lots of othger documents as well. Nowe it appears the marriage cert hgas to be legalised and translated.
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Sorry for bad spelling on last posting but it was late.!! This marriage proof is driving our friends around the twist. Ask yourself , how can you prove that you are still married. A "current " marriage certificate could be construed as a recent certified copy from the G.R.O. in UK and then you could have it legalised, also in UK, and then there would have to be a offficial translation (Traductor Jurado) but all that would prove is that the marriage certificate is legal.
Also the translator who went with them disagreed with my EX-18 form filling (of which I am quite proud as I went to great lengths to get it right (I thought). He completed a new one for them, leaving out passport number, not completing the info for correspondence, not ticking the 2 boxes at the bottom confirming the data you supplied is correct. He also marked the Permanent box despite the fact that no sub categories could be ticked as this was a first apllication and they are retired with no income. He seemed to be confused with some older type of form where temporary meant one year.
Anyway, I'm a bit miffed but as the husband got his little green card it seems how you complete the EX-18 doesn't matter too much at all. I can see the confusion I suppose, as you tick the Temporary box, but say your planned residence in Spain is "Para Siempre". After 5 years residence you become permanent according to the EU's own guide.
Incidentally I joined a Facebook group called Citizens Advice Bureau Spain and was going to upload an example of what I thought was a properly completed EX-18 form when the nice lady who is the Admin there told me I was wrong as well and Permanent box should be ticked. So, not wanting to upset her I have left it. But, as there are wise people on here I would like maybe just one of them to agree with me!
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