The future for ex pats

JWhite,
You can definitely blame your mother for your bad luck - she should have known that you never put your handbag on the floor in a public loo!

Pingbosun,
You noticed, as I did, that the question was mainly about health care for expats and retired expats and you say you have no worries on that score, as you are fully covered by the Spanish system (and thus I am assuming, the reciprocal arrangement between the UK and Spain and EU regulations).

But surely you must have noticed that there are now prescription charges for all Spanish pensioners (including expats who are covered by the same rules)? The cut off point for payment is scaled according to income, but charges do now apply.
And we have to wonder whether this is only the first round of charges.

Then there are the new regulations for applying for residencia (or, for EU citizens, to get your green card when signing on the foreigners register).

For some years Spain ignored the fact that, under EU rules, as a member state they could choose to insist that those registering supplied details of income and health cover, and gave out these cards on the basis of EU membership only.  But now they are taking advantage of that right and at the moment, some of those applying are being refused and others are being told to wait, until the new regulations are clearly defined.
This provides the situation where someone new to Spain finds themselves in the predicament of not being able to claim state health cover, as they need their green card first.

You may say that this does not affect you. But legally (although many ignore this, understandably at present), whenever you change your address, you should change your green card.
This could be rather difficult at present, although it does appear to vary by region and even from one locality to the next.

What this situation points out to me, is that whenever a new ruling is applied in Spain, it can cause absolute chaos, where some benefit, whilst others fall foul of a mix up or bad interpretation of the system. And I think that, as the Government passes new laws to deal with La Crisis and as local authorities interpret these laws while applying their own new regulations, some of us will struggle to get by, despite having done everything we can to follow legal requirements.

Then there is the Spanish Health Service itself.
Yes, I agree it is excellent, but it is suffering badly as a result of La Crisis and in some regions more than others. You could say the the UK NHS is also suffering and I agree. But I dont think that we can feel entirely safe that either system will be able to fulfill our health needs in the future.

I agree in some part with those who say there is little we can do, so enjoy our life here while its available to us. But I do think that we should also be aware of what may be on the horizon and do what we can to mitigate future problems.
But how to do this is the subject of another discussion.

On the state of the Spanish property market, did anyone see the news on Spanish TV last night (La Sexta)?

They showed an auction room full of people rushing to buy repossessed property at bargain prices.
But I noticed something quite ironic. Many of those interviewed were not buying repossessed property with cash, but with 100% loans. And it made me wonder how long it will be before these new property investors are themselves faced with repossession.

Apologies for contiuing to highjack the thread. A couple of points I disagree with. The problem of overbuilding is everywhere. While Russians, etc might be interested in cherrypicking a few properties on the costas, I doubt they would want to buy apartments in provincial towns on the meseta, or Madrid working class suburbs, etc......which is were the real oversupply is. 

There are a few differences with Dubai and the Cat D12 solution. Decisions are easer to make in countries with little democratic mandate, particularly where a handful of royal families control pretty much everything. I can't see a Spanish political party recommending the destruction of a couple of million housing units, especially as they are pretty much owned by the taxpayer  (via bank bailouts) like it or not. Perhaps govt/local authorities could gift properties to poor people for a quid pro quo, such as reduced lifetime  benefits, etc. Or give them to public sector workers in return for reduced wages. The trick will be to try and wring out some benefit for the taxpayer from all this property that nobody can afford. Nobody has the aswers as we are in unchartered waters. 

I just saw the last post about people buying repossessed properties on 100|% mortgages. This might not be a bad hedge aganist Spain leaving the euro. You would get to clear the loan in pesetas nuevas.

 The auction!  It's put many a US investor on the brink of disaster.  In the States fools rushed it with those easy to get loans and many are now paying the price for easy money.  Yes those properties will end up back on the auction block.  Look what it did to the US property market.  

i agree with summer 70. pingbosun seems to have the rose coloured glasses on. paying towards prescriptions is just the thin end of the wedge-in some areas the health authorities are considering charges  for patients' food. some aspects of treatments may be charged for.-fine if you are on a handsome pension, but many are not.. i don't deny that the health sevice here is good, but if you are here as a couple, with no other support a long stay in hospital will mean many problems for the other partner-what if help is needed with washing, feeding etc? these agencies who hep with these matters charge at least 20 euros per hour-what if someone needs someone there all night? it is a tremendous physical, mental and financial strain-i know i've been there, spent 5 weeks night and day with my seriously ill husband (now better); but it did bring it home to me how isolated i felt at a terrible time, and influenced my decision to sell our villa and m (whenever that will be!) move back to the uk, where i know its not ideal, but i would fare better in a similar situation. With the state of the economy here, ex pats will be even more squeezed, as we are seen as a cash cow!

On the upside though you are likely to have a healthier lifestyle in Spain. In the 12 weeks we were there Feb - April, I was walking every day and lost a stone in weight. My diet changed as we bought more fruit and veg from the market and stress levels were a lot lower away from depressing news and other family issues (out of sight out of mind).

My wife who suffers from hypothyroidism takes a thyroxine tablet every day and one of our concerns was what would happen if we lived permanently in Spain as she gets it free in UK.So we called in the local Farmacia and discovered the cost (no prescription required) for 50 tablets was €2.75 so a whole years supply for €20 approx. Neither of us has reached pensionable age yet (I am 61 this year) so we are aware that we will need private medical insurance if we become permanently resident..

I believe the (still) lower cost of living in Spain will more than compensate for the 10% prescription charge for Ex Pat pensioners not to mention the better exchange rates.

Hi, I retired to Spain when I was 63 and not yet pension age, however, as I'd been working in the UK until then I was able to get a form E106 (now part of the S1 system) from the dept of Works and Pensions. If you have been paying into the UK national health service for the previous 3 years you are able to obtain up to 30months medical cover in a reciprocal arrangement with the Spanish Social Service; In my case my E106 was only fot 19 months as I didn't have a full 3 years because I retired here in the Sept meaning I could only claim for April to Sept in year 3, but it enabled me to register with my local doctor with my wife as my dependant until I reached 65 whe Iwas then able to continue as a pensioner. I bought a book in the UK titled "Retiring to Spain" by Guy Hobbs and this has been my bible as it includes all the UK phone nos. you'll need once retired. I hope that this is of some help to you all. Regards, Duncan 

Iacanau-books are helpful, but laws and rules change so quickly out here, and also from region to region. I bought You and the law in Spain-it's good, but  i found many things are not done by the book. I found that rumours abound out here-talk to the experts, research on the net, call the tax office in uk, DWP rather than listen to well meaning friends.

fyfin-healthier lifestyle? not necessarily. fruit and veg can be eaten in any country, it.s no cheaper or fresher  here-in fact there's a greater variety in Tesco's uk, where there are more special offers. Spain, like uk, has an obesity problem. ever seen those ghastly cakes filled with sickly artificial cream, pastries with chocolate? what about calorie laden booze. those who were previously active now get fatter eating huge english breakfasts, then sit outside drinking and smoking, watching the world go by. I'm not saying all do this, but a great many do. smoking-thankfully banned in enclosed spaces, but look at the stubs thrown outside buildings, and so many young people smoke here. vulnerable children, who have no choice but to breathe it in, especially in their homes.stress levels reduced due to family being out of sight, out of mind? never underestimate how much you will miss your family when you move here-if you have problems you feel isolated, they can't drop everything in the uk to come over.  if they have problems you can't nip in to comfort them over a cup of tea.i have met those who don't miss their family, but they've usually fallen out or were never close to them-they aren't just a couple of hours cheap flight away, as some say- it's at least half a day and a lot of money.

Regarding healthcare-don't forget to budget for interpreters  if you don't speak fluent Spanish-I am at an intermediate level, and i still  find it difficult when speaking to consultants.when you are really ill out here, a stressful situation can become a nightmare.

People are attracted here because of cheap property, sun and so called less stress, don't do enough   research, live as they have done in UK, some live under the radar and wonder why they have problems.

After 11 years here, i definitely don't wear my rose coloured glasses!

Camposol -

Great post and without the rose coloured specs !   We bought our apartment in 2005 (when I was 55 and hubby was 57 fully intending to retire in Spain, however I am close to my family here in the Uk and always have been (emotionally I mean, but not far in miles either).   Anyway at first it seemed the ideal solution to a working life that was busy and stressful and we loved our holidays in spain.   However as the economies have changed whilst we waited to retire and the cost of living in spain has increased as it has in the UK, we have now retired and we have had 7 years to consider the options.   We are now that little bit older, less mobile, and less well off now that we have finished working and a lot of things we had not considered are now top of the list.    Things like National Health (although we would be on the Spanish health system, we like the fact that our doctor knows our history and I read now that Spain is starting to charge anyway for prescriptions, (we are both on several medications for life).   I don't think I could now bear to live apart from relatives either who are also getting older and less financially able to "pop over for a visit" several times a year.   We do not speak fluent spanish either which we would then have to ensure we learnt properly as I wouldn't dream of coming over and having to fork out for interpreters which let's face it in the UK are all free !!!!    The benefits system, although abused in the UK, at least exists for pensioners who are struggling, though the new system coming in leaves me with a few anxious worries about pension credit etc. which I would need if hubby passed on before me, but in Spain I would be left without a safety net !   Also we would need a car in Spain permanently as the bus service is non-existent where our apartment is (although I am assured they run every hour or so I have never seen one in 7 years !).   In the UK we have our bus passes so when the car goes we are within 1./2 mile of several large supermarkets and a bus service to town centres.

Relocating to Spain would have been a no-brainer if we had done it in our 30's or early 40's, in our 60's our priorities have changed and I am glad we delayed long enough to consider the drawbacks in later life.   I will always love Spain and the sun but it will always be a holiday place for us once we have sold our apartment.  

I just knew someone would have to drag (no pun intended) smoking into this discussion. Smokers are now the last remaining minority you can still legally villify and discriminate against, so fair game for the bigots who need someon to demonise. Having driven smokers out of buildings, crippling many businesses in the process, they now pursue them onto the streets and terraces and in this instance, even into their own homes! If the government were serious about smoking as a health hazard, why not ban it altogether, including the manufacture and sale of tobacco products? Everyone knows the answer is that they could not countenance the loss of tax and duty revenue that would result - such hypocrisy!

Nothing against a wide-ranging debate, but the anti-smoking fascists have enough platforms as it is from which to vent their bile.

Regarding healthcare-don't forget to budget for interpreters  if you don't speak fluent Spanish-I am at an intermediate level, and i still  find it difficult when speaking to consultants.when you are really ill out here, a stressful situation can become a nightmare.

I definitely agree with that one!
Just over a year ago I had a very bad fall and ended up in the emergency department of my local hospital needing an urgent hip replacement. The care I received was excellent, as was the follow up care, and I later found out that the new hip they fitted was probably better than I would have received in the UK (state of the art, lol!). It certainly feels like new anyway.

But being in a Spanish speaking hospital for over a week was a bit of a nightmare. The analgesic drugs made me too woozy to remember half of the Spanish I usually know, so talking to nurses and consultants was a bit of a trial, and although being in a 4-bed ward with other orthopedic patients was welcome company, I found it very difficult to join in with many of their conversations (although I have to say that they did all they could to include me).

No interpretor was offered, although I found out later that I could have hired one at a price. But in any case, an interpretor could not have been used for everyday conversation, which most hospital patients find so important to their recovery.

Then there is the Spanish way of dealing with hospital care - most Spanish patients have a member of their family or a friend with them at all times and this person helps them with meals, washing, getting around, and communicates for the patient with the doctors and nurses. I had no one, apart from my husband who had committments at home and could only visit for a couple of hours each day, so I became a bit of a drain on the healthcare workers.  Again, most of them took this well, but I did get quite a few remarks that someone should be with me.

So my glasses are rose coloured as regards the treatment I received, but faded somewhat because I feel I was lucky in that the doctors and nurses were so understanding and helpful where they really didnt have to be. So given a different hospital or set of staff, and hospital cutbacks on staff and a growing awareness of the need to question treatment for expats, things could have been a whole lot worse.
I certainly wouldnt want to go through that again, anyway!

 Dear me.  Pick a word.   Doubt, gloom, hopelessness, pessimism.

Yes, fruit and veg can be had in any country.  The stuff in Tesco is tasteless, has (a lot of it) been artificially enhanced under lights to improve the colour (tomatoes and oranges especially).  I much prefer mine off the markets here but maybe this is just that my taste buds are enhanced over here?  I don't know but even the cauliflower over here tastes better.  All different types of melon when in season at 3 for a euro.  Just bought 36 large oranges on the market (to use as juice as well as eating) for 5 euros, so juicy and naturally ripened.  Spain may have an obesity problem but nothing like that of the UK which is rapidly catching up to the USA.  Eating cooked breakfasts and sitting outside drinking and smoking?  Not been past a Greggs lately, then?  

We are very close to our family but they also moved on in UK.  I had to move a long way off to get a job which meant a 2 to 3 hour drive.  My daughters and grandchildren visit us often, thank you, and we pop off to UK to visit my parents and the rest of the family.  Technology means we can speak to, and view, them on a daily basis if we wish thanks to Windows Messenger and webcams.  

UK, and I do not wish to knock it in anyway as it has been good to me, is becoming very insular.  We lived in a village for over 20 years and only got to know about half a dozen people in all that time.  Here we have made many good friends who we see daily, socialise with (but not to the extent of living on each others doorsteps) and often meet many other friendly people who come out on holidays.  At least we can go into town of an evening without seeing the drunks and louts causing fights in the streets which is, unfortunately, a regular occurence in UK cities despite the fact it costs a small fortune to go to a pub, anyway.  

My wife suffers from arthritis in the knees.  Here, in Spain, she hardly gets a twinge so there must be something in the air.  The paying for prescriptions will mean our monthly outgoing will be about €1.50 but it will be capped to a maximum of €8 anyway, so hardly a punitive cost.  I don't need an interpreter as I learnt Spanish many years ago and it is coming back to the almost fluent level and I would suggest that people moviing abroad should at least learn the basics of the language wherever they go.  

Yes, we have the weather here but that is no the be all and end all of it.  My garden is in bloom all year round, my house is nice and cosy and I don't have the clanking radiators, the squeaking floorboards when someone goes upstairs.  I certainly don't miss the rip off council tax and water rates.  It is nice to have the weather, though.

It was one of the best decisions we ever made to live here and the only downside is the amount of whingeing Brits.  I got over that by not going to the places they go and have found some wonderful little places where the service and chat is excellent.  If I felt like some of you I'd have packed up and gone somewhere else long ago.  

After 11 years here, I definitely don't wear my crap-coloured glasses (Urban dict: Opposite of rose coloured glasses)

Horses for courses .......

If you are not close to family it doesn't bother you to put thousands of miles between you.    Wealth makes a difference too.   If your family are OK financially and yourself also, again no problem with distances when you want family company.   I love the sun and always feel well in Spain so I am being honest in saying that not retiring there would be a loss in this respect.   I do like the food off the markets there and think it does taste different to the UK although prices there now are not much cheaper than the UK.

Basically it is a trade off in later life.   The things I like in Spain, at a push, I can do without, however the things I NEED and have in the Uk like the NHS (including community nurses, elderly health care, and  family support, free transport, financial help,  I will never be able to access in Spain.

We live in a housing association bungalow now with 24 hour support, get garden maintenance, windows cleaned, exterior property maintained and included building insurance, plus our gas central heating maintained and even the boiler replaced if necessary, plus help from the housing association manager who calls once a week all for £25 per week, something we could never get in Spain.

As I said priorities ......... and of course there is always holidays and with hotels offering winter holidays at knock down prices, now we are retired we can hop off to Benidorm for 6 weeks at a time for a few drops of sunshine when we get withdrawal symptons in the British winter 

Well, of course everyone's circumstances are different but as regards healthier lifestyle I'm afraid for me it's no contest. The good weather encourages me and my wife to walk about outside a lot more than we would in UK. Where we have our apartment in Spain is a lovely little town with lots of places to walk without lots of traffic in comparison to where we are here in UK.

Also Tesco's fruit and veg, how far has it travelled I wonder whereas the local market has fruit and veg produced locally. Of course we have farmer's markets here but the market in Turre is 200 yards away and the nearest farmer's market for us in UK is 12 miles.

As regards family, we are not close although we have been a big part in our Grandchildren's lives but at 16 and 14 they are now at the point where they don't really need us as much and with modern communication, skype, facebook etc we can easily keep in touch. Familiea are already scattered with some in Ireland and others in USA and the ones who live close by, we see maybe once a year so as I said we're all different.

We already made a big move and left all family behind in Northern Ireland to live in England when I was 21 and my wife (we married in Suffolk 3 weeks later) was only 18. So to move to Spain would be much easier now.

The other interesting point that no-one has mentioned is that our Health Service here is not too brilliant. In fac,t you almost need an interpreter whern you visit hospital here. My friend who is Suffolk born and bred could not understand the Asian doctor and I had to relay what he was asking as she actually answered one of his questions wrongly. Our local Doctor's practice now has only one English doctor and our dental practice is run by a very nice Islamic guy with his wife as receptionist who does struggle a bit with English.

And before anyone thinks I'm Xenophobic I can assure you I have no problems with non indigenous health professionals but they need to speak good English and regional accents can be a challenge and in Spain it seems to me most of doctors and nurses seem to be Spanish.

Also my wife witnessed first hand the cleanliness and professionalism of the staff in Granada hospital as our friend had to have a cardiac bypass while he was on holiday. Unfortunately he spoke no Spanish nor did his wife so my wife flew over to be there to lend support and to help with her limited Spanish. It was very traumatic for all concerned and Eric (my friend) was glad to get out but they were very very impressed with the care he received and the hygiene in comparison to here (and he has experienced both).

And smoking was mentioned. As a non smoker married to a smoker I can see both sides but I can assure you it is no fun being in a pub full of smokers when you don't smoke yourself or does anyone remember the non smoking seats on an aeroplane - what a joke!

But smoking outside - no problem as far as I am concerned - not much of an incentive toi give up in Spain but a bit more in Ireland (freezing cold and pouring rain lol).

I've just read Bobaol's post - couldn't have put it better myself! Jwhite it's great to see you being positive despite your obvious problems and I hope you enjoy your hols when you can get them.

I consider myself fortunate to have had a good job and to have made some good decisions and I can say that we did it without any help from anyone - just hard work and a good education. We both came from working class backgrounds, Dad was a school caretaker and Mum was a dinner lady but thank God for the 11+ and Grammar Schools. My pension isn't massive (no Civil Service for me) as it wasn't final salary and we don't need to start a new discussion about endowments and pension funds but I have enough and am happy and in good health for my age (60) lol.

Keith28-I mentioned smoking because it is such a big part of Spanish life, though thankfully less so now.Yes i would cheer if smoking were banned altogether; i read that cigarette prices will rise next year. for every euro spent on smoking the health authority spends double on  treating smoking related diseases.  What i hate is the arrogance of some smokers, banging on about their rights and freedom, when the only right they have is to smoke themselves to death in their own homes-no one has the right to pollute another's space!

Baobol-I think Spain is lovely for holidays, but after 11 years i would not recommend it for permanent retirement, especially if someone has chronic health problems; i'm not knocking the care itself, but all the other factors-lack of  nursing care,aftercare, language, etc can make a stressful situation harder to endure.People don't want to think about their partner dementia, but what a nightmare scenario that would be. yes,  there's skype etc, but in times of family crisis only being with family will do, and many can't afford to jump on a plane several times a year.

When i read about council tax being low etc, people don't consider all the other things they might have to pay out-funeral insurance, tax accountant's fees( for those who DO pay income tax) security, trips home to uk-probably add up to more than uk council tax. I t's a myth about life style, food etc-you may think Tesco's is tasteless, but i bet there's no difference.

Contrary to other roseglasses wearers, i don't feel safe here-i don't care about statistics, i've never heard of so many burglaries muggings, distraction crimes as i have here, probably because we are perceived as rich. others may write in with their experiences of leaving their front door open, but i fear they are in the minority!

Camposol,

Quite seriously, one has to take one's hat off to the anti-smoking lobby and what they have achieved in a few  short years after centuries of near-universal smoking. Indeed, they have exceeded the expectations of many non-smokers who would have been quite content with a good choice of no-smoking bars and restaurants, but leaving the smokers somewhere to go other than the pavement. But instead of accepting their victory with good grace they now want to control the outside air and eliminate tobacco smoke from the long list of pollutants already there. This seems to be something of a seasonal phenomenon; in the winter months, the non-smokers sat snugly and smugly indoors while the smokers huddled outside. Now the warmer weather is here, the non-smokers emerge like a swarm of disturbed hornets to chase smokers from the outside seats as well.

You mention arrogance and what could be more arrogant than laying claim to ownership of the earth's atmosphere itself? This is not about rights, it's about tolerance and accepting that the world around us is not always the way we might ideally want it to be. I think smokers have learned this lesson but some non-smokers have yet to do so.

Try to explain this to all the bars and restuarants that lost customers during the winter months.

 Oh, good.  Another thread derailed and onto smoking.

Let’s just generalise and stop it here by agreeing that:

Smokers are ashtray smelling, cancer ridden, outcasts, with a shared sense of brotherhood, of a generous disposition, (giving a smoke/light to a total stranger) who pollute the atmosphere with their smoke. Who contribute more to the NHS and general economic well being of the nation by paying more in than they take out, and dying young thus saving you all a fortune in your taxes.

Non-smokers are mean spirited, anti-social, pinch faced, holier than thou, intefering do-gooders, tofu eating, diversity celebrators, who never go to the pub or bring a bottle round when visiting. Never had a day's fun in their lives and are hypocritical, car-driving polluters and are doomed to be billy-no-mates even though they don’t cough up their lungs when they wake up in the morning.

That should just about cover everything you were all going to say.