Modifying a Car in Spain , some clarification from experts required

As robert has pointed out you couldn't be more wrong when you state that SVA is for kitcars only, it (and its more modern ESVA) is for vehicles that do not have full EU type approval.

Technically since your vehicle is pre EU Type approval then it would have to reference a manufacterers compliance notice and if found to not follow this compliance notice/letter then it would fail any ESVA test it really is as simple as that.

If you can not obtain a certificate of conformity (highly unlikely for said rover) or a compliance notice/letter from the manufacturer then it makes the ESVA process to be circa £1,600 to have a model report made for the vehicle, at least that was the rough price of one the last time I did it.

An MOT does not dictate your car follows EU type approval it's just a pre-historic test to state your vehicle is considered roadworthy based on the assumption the vehicle follows type approval. It would not check for example if you had put on a 35 china knockoff wishbone that risks not only your own health but innocent members of the public that is where the SVA and now ESVA comes into play.

All this drama about something that nobody really knows anything about just makes me smile, a typical forum response of panic. No mention that the UK or ES can opt out of most if not any EU directive they desire or adapt it to best fir their needs. That is why personaly and professionally if this EU directive were to be implimented into the main stream and I hope it does there will be avenues that will cater for people who modifiy there cars using the already existing ESA/SVA route which is primarly what it's designed for, just 'modder's like yourself are not aware of it as well, with my experience of the modding scene the vast majority of it is done on the cheap.

 It would seem the only people stating fact are myself and robert everything else is pure speculation, crap or just complete nonsense.

 YAYYYYYY!!!!!! somebody who seems to know regulations and speaks fact, and is aware of true regulations within the EU! And Delza has just repeated my earlier comment that, " there will be avenues that will cater for people who modifiy there cars using the already existing ESA/SVA route which is primarly what it's designed for, just 'modder's like yourself are not aware of it as well, with my experience of the modding scene the vast majority of it is done on the cheap." I repeat K5ive, that many people who meddle with their cars and modify them (not ALL i might add), are ignorant of English law, and also Spanish law, even EU directive, and when something like this comes into their radar they have the fright of their life.

The authentication and certification in ANY country is for every road users peace of mind and safety and is there for that purpose, nor to drive people off the road , or prevent them modifying or adding to anything in addition to normal type approval to their pride and joy. It is solely there to make sure a vehicle is constructed or modified in a sensible well constructed way, which an MOT will not confirm

In addition K5ive, if you did insure it in the UK, and declare the mocifications to the insurance, the first thing they will ask for is an engineers report, and /or a SVA certificate, so for you to suggest "my car WAS inspected by the MOT, insured with all modifications declared and engine was a ROVER V8 Engine a bigger internal version of what was already in it." I would think you would have been demanded a SVA for it by the insurance, and not as you say, would not need a SVA.

Maybe you are not a Spanish resident , but a resident of cloud cuckoo land?

I had this car insured with companies of the classic specialist vehicle variety and not one asked for an engineers report. I know many people with highly modified cars and they have never been asked for such a report either. Cloud cuckoo land hardly. Why keep on refering to such mods being down on the cheap? Pure supposition on this. People who do this kind of thing buy the best there is unlike the average motorist looking to do things on the cheap. The only reason my Rover never had the 4.6 put in it is because it was unavailble at the time. Notice how the Range Rover had the same 3.5 originally and grew to 4.6 as well once it was enlarged.

Why keep going on about COC or SVA's for it? have I asked about bringing it into this country? No. The topic was to get the facts on modifying a car here.

Perhaps people are being a little harsh here on K 5ive. We are not aware why it was essential for him to modify his Rover SD1. However, he seems a very sensible person and I am sure he purchased his new 4.6 Range Rover engine, out of the box and brand new from a franchise dealer, with a guarantee of it being original equipment. And I am sure he did exactly the same with the Jaguar XJS brakes. It is beyond comprehension that K 5ive would do it on the cheap and endanger everyone’s life, by going to some knackers yard and buying these parts from an unknown ‘’write off’’. Hence that is why he believes he should not be belittled and he is exempt from an engineer’s certificate in these circumstances. He is a highly qualified engineer and not some tinkering grease monkey like most of his mates. Quite clearly he has notified his insurance company that he has had to ‘’replace’’ the engine and brakes because he got bored one weekend.

 I quote, " Why keep going on about COC or SVA's for it? have I asked about bringing it into this country? No. The topic was to get the facts on modifying a car here." K5ive, Your words , not anyone elses, you modify a car in Spain and the regulations WILL be almost identical to the requirement for any modification to a vehicle in England due to EU harmonisation of vehicle regulations throughout the EU. as it is the case that you would have changed the vehicles specification by fitting a LATER model engine. " The only reason my Rover never had the 4.6 put in it is because it was unavailble at the time.",again your words. as it was "unavailable" at the time and theredore DIDNT pass type  approval for that model, you HAVE to have Single Vehicle Approval (SVA), as it could not have ever existed in ANY quaantity by the manufacturer. Not cloud cuckoo land, but, i am sorryto say, FACT.

I suggest you think yourself exceedingly lucky you never had any encounter with the police or ministry at the roadside, and certainly never had an accident resulting in injury. And  i think due to said EU harmonisation, you will find the regulations that dont exist in your mind actually do exist in Spain.

I also Quote, "I know many people with highly modified cars and they have never been asked for such a report either", well in English law, ignorance of the law is no excuse, so you and your friends are guilty as charged, by your own admission!

I also never said, or even suggested your modifications were done "on the cheap" they quite likely were not, but if they were expensive, surely you would enjoy the vehicle more if it was properly tested and approved by the proper authoritiesand systems?

The regulations in Spain exist already & in Germany . What the EU proposal does is to not allow anything that has had fitted/been modified in any way from the  homologated original vehicle. We aren't just talking about engines , brakes,etc; but absolutely anything .If you restore an historic vehicle that was factory converted /supported & competed in the monte carlo/RAc rally it would be deemed illegal under the proposals , as it was never originally built for sale in that spec. Same if you restore an absolutely standard road car & cannot obtain wing mirrors/door cards. To use anything other than the originals , which are unobtainable, renders the whole thing illegal.

What I like is the reference to 'comply with the origainal CoC's . As many vehicles didn't have them before 1998 than is that another reason to deny legality ? As the ACE info points out " Without a large effort over the next 6 weeks this ’proposal’ will pass into law very shortly afterwards." Due to how the EU system works. It only has to have two unopposed readings & it will become law.

There is no allowance in it for "single vehicle" mods; only vague references to 'over 30 years historic' being a possibility.

As I said before , these stringent rules exist here in Spain already & have done for donkeys years . The problem is that they in no way enhance /increase road safety as here at the ITV (MOT) tests all they are interested in is conformity with the specification& what's on the log-book. . Safety doesn't really come into it.

Guzlopez,

Again it is ignorance of the law, prior to COC papers you would have to order a compliance notice/letter from the manufacterers homologation department.

Much like people say that modifications are illegal, you can not have modded vehicles in Spain, that is also utter and total nonsense there is a LEGAL route to this, far superior to the UK one which like many laws in the UK just brushed under the carpet or 'adapted/ignored' to suit people and/or organizations.

If you have a vehicle that a COC or Compliance letter is not available (ie Age related or the company going bust) then you would have to pay out of your own pocket for a model report done which at least 5-6 years ago before the arse fell out of the motor industry cost approximately £1,600 for a single vehicle report.

I remember when this law was being brought in on German soil a good few years ago now, everyone like yourself panicked and the market was absolutely flooded with oldtimers, especially RHD ones (what the Germans call classic cars) because they panicked before knowing the real facts. That is the upside for people like me who make money out of stupidity so we ended up buying a far few of them up as the market was flooded, so they were 'cheap' shipped them to the UK to sell here and further abroad. It was only when the law came into force did average Joe see there were routes around this, sure more complicated, more expensive but if your need to own a 'classic' or a modified car is that great then like most things, pay for that priviledge.

I think everyone needs to calm down, lobby against the law if you desire but ultimately wait until (if) it is implemented as like any other EU Directive there is a time frame in years for when these things have to come into force which would give you plenty of time to consider your options and/or if you owned a business based around modding (as a few of my friends do) you'd have time to adapt or change your business model to fit the new law(s)

K 5ive, nobody said your vehicle modficiations were done on the cheap, that is merely an assumption made by yourself after being confronted by 2 people who actually know what they're talking about and the laws and not based on here say from a Rover forum with 20,000 people who whatever someone bragged about.

We in the trade call such forums "arm chair specialist" who have a lot to say but very little knowledge to back it up, generally - again that is not a comment based on yourself, but more of the modding scene in general from which I have VAST experience from over many many different platforms and manufacterers.

The funniest being the people who would add 'downforce' aero modifications to their smart cars and actually think they make a difference lol

Another piece of FACT before it's mentioned about such inhouse (or even out of house) tuning companies such as I dunno AMG/Brabus or similar you will see most do not make any fundamental changes to engines, mainly remaps and most will have basic body changes like bumpers and suspension. But ALL these vehicles will come with a NEW and completely different to the stock cars C.O.C document and in some cases a different VIN # because they are modified cars and such no longer stand by their oriignal C.O.C document.

This message was last edited by delza on 26/08/2012.

" everyone like yourself panicked and the market was absolutely flooded with oldtimers"

Why would I panic ? it is of no interest to me only as an infrnigement of my right to do what I want. It won't affect me as I always comply in my own way legally & normally am completely over the top. If you are going to argue the toss on the side of the road then you need to know the law better than they do.

" think everyone needs to calm down, lobby against the law if you desire but ultimately wait until (if) it is implemented "

See previous post . It only needs two unopposed readings after notification to come into law. The notification has already been complied with..Two readings without anyone speaking once against it & it is law.

Profile of a car ‘’Modder’’. Sorry, I can understand classic and vintage cars, but putting body kits, wide wheels and 4.6 engines in bangers needs a doctors certificate, not an engineers.

And with that sentence you have proved you know nothing so why even bother commenting? Said Rover IS a classic car, was certainly no banger, did not have any wide wheels etc as you put it. So you don't like cars or modifying, well that's upto you. Were asked for your opion on wether you liked them? To everyone on the street my car looked like a pristine example of a Rover Vitesse, exactly as it should have done when it came out of the factory. That is what the Retro classic movement is all about.

Again the topic has gone off the tracks as I asked about the laws here.

To everyone on the street my car looked like a pristine example of a Rover Vitesse, exactly as it should have done when it came out of the factory.

I suppose it did to Rita, Sue & Bob of Buttershaw council estate in Bradford.

I've always aid that anyone who considers a car is a means of transport , a method of getting from A to B , or motorised walking should just be banned from having any vehicle of their own & forced to use public transport until they die ! . These are the ones that are more likely to have the dangerous pile of tat , even from new,rather than the aficionados who look upon them for what they are . Works of art to be appreciated modified, restored & lovingly cared for. Mine are up there with the wife, our daughters & my dogs, absolutely untouchable.

 Dear K5ive, and Guslopez, i am now losing the will to live as you both will not accept the advice myself and others have given you in good faith, and now it comes time to hit you hard with FACT not fantasy.

Please look at the following websites, operated by the UK Motoring authorites which only confirm what myself and others have been trying to politely explain to you. Please have a look at the following links:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/index.asp     Which explains original vehicle type approval, and,

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/ImportingAndExportingAVehicle/DG_177879 , which explains all you need to know about Individual Vehicle Approval (the sucessor to SVA.)

On the type approval site the follwing is stated, "Vehicle Type Approval is the confirmation that production samples of a design will meet specified performance standards. " Note that the word PRODUCTION is used, and your Rover K5ive was certainly NOT a production vehicle, so would need a Individual Vehicle Approval (SVA)

If you look at the second link it states that Individual Vehicle Approval is needed for ;

Who can use the IVA scheme

You can use the IVA scheme if you:

• build, design or sell kit cars
• import cars from outside the European Union - particularly the Far East and North America
• rebuild older cars with major changes
• specialise in converting new vehicles into wheelchair accessible vehicles
• manufacture a small number of vehicles
• manufacture or import trailers
• manufacture or import passenger vehicles
• manufacture or import goods vehicles

Note the third bulleted type of vehicle is, "Rebuild older cars with major changes"

If rebuilding a Rover SD1 with a engine of increased capacity, Jaguar brakes, suspension uprated, "and numerous other modifications" is not major changes, maybe you could enlighten me and all the other contributors what is? And note these sites refer to the fact that these regulations are endorsed by the EU, so would be similarly regulated in any EU country. If you hadnt noticed, Spain is a member state of the EU, just as England is.

As i am now fed up of trying to impart good and proper knowledge i think you should go back to sticking your head in the sand.And as to your Rover, whichever country it is in i would hope you would now have it properly inspected.

Suspension was tUV approved so that hardly constitutes a whole rebuild! Where most of the car is carried over, this is not a rebuild!

 the suspension was TUV approved, but the body mountings and panels were not checked by an approved engineer to ascertain their suitability for the job regarding that model of car, nor the strength of the bodywork it was mounted to, so again it needs Individual Vehcile inspection to approve their fitment. It is not just the items suitability, but wether, once you fit an uprated part the bodywork can stand the additional load (which is tested by TYPE approval, and you have changed its characteristics). This also applies to an engine of greater capacity (4.6 litres as opposed to 3.5,An increase of over 1,000 cc's!), and also the brakes performance on the Rover body, as opposed to their original Jaguar fitment.

This also raises another question, as you say you carefully modified the vehicle, and i consider ,as would any sane person that substituting an engine, brakes, suspension and other components hardly constitutes that most of the car is carried over! If you removed these items from a chassis i do not consider that there would be much car left, and you certainly wouldnt be using it to travel from "A to B " as Guslopez quotes in his earlier comment, as how would you drive it without engine brakes and suspension?

I feel sorry that you cannot face up to openly available information, and by your earlier posts, never found this information out, even by visiting your local VOSA office (there are many regional offices throughout the UK). I also feel you are not being truthful about never being asked about any certification by an insurer, as any insurer that is aware of modifications wish to know it is deemed a safe modification made to an otherwise standard car, before they will take it on risk. All i can say is if you were never asked, you never informed them of the modifications, which is TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE, as is putting your head in the sand, as i stated earlier.

With regard to the thread, the Spanish would want to know the same things from a point of knowing about modifications, and the proposed EU legislation will only further endorse laws that are ALREADY in force, and which you seem intent on denying exist, and are intent on disregarding.

I restate, i only hope you never are involved in an accident or even fatality, in your carefully modified (but not certificated) vehicle

and if you are ,i hope i am never in the locality to be involved in the carnage

Well said Robert and thank you for taking the time to point out factual evidence based from Government websites it saved me the hassle but alas it's quite pointless argueing with such people who ignore fact and law as they're always right. Something I have learnt over the years that the modding scene for the most part are ignorant of what they do.

This is why I've always supported the Spanish way of doing things, they blocked the loopholes that the UK system has as have the Germans.

Personally I can't wait for the new law to come into force, it will for all intent and purposes sort them men from the boys and clean up the entire 'industry' and 'scene' in the UK and just improve the situation in Spain a little further and I'm not just talking about the 'roy racers' who chav their vehicles up with bodykits and bigger engines but I'm also talking about the whole third party parts industry in europe. It will have a complete overhaul and shobby copies will hopefully become a thing of the past and need some sort of EU certification to continue to trade.

People can mod their vehicles to their hearts content if the vehicles are checked over by a qualified engineer (an MOT or ITV inspector is not an engineer) I have absolutely no problem with that. It's not my thing but each to their own.

However, what I find just sacrilegious is when idiots take true classic cars and butcher them beyond the point of being able to return them to their original state, it is my opinion that these people should stick to Nova's, Golfs and the like and continue to meet up in Halfords carparks and really sad 'meets' where people compare how much butchery has occured to a vehicle.

I own an original Porsche 993 Twin Turbo at the moment and someone actually had the nerve to ask me why it's not beem modded or 'uprated' I just shook my head in disbelief and it's those kind of people who give the modding 'scene' the sad reputation it has.

Shell the same, suspension Shock absorbers that fit in the same locations as the originals but gas uprated with lowered springs. Brakes fit onto the original legs, Block same mounting as it is the same block so not changing anything apart from internal size, heads and induction system, original rover v8 so no change there. Not enough changes for the need of an SVA.

If it was a Landrover hybrid where they use a modern coilsprung defender and the take the id of the original pre 72 Landy then there is a need for an SVA. I was not changing the ID enough to warrant an SVA!

I can't believe that I am having to defend a car that I owned 4 years ago! Get off your high horse for gods sake and if you must partake in this topic answer the original question!

Oh BTW did you see the companies featured on Top Gear upgrading Astons and Jag e types with improved  modern suspension and brakes. SVA'd no! not needed because enough ogf the original cars DNA was carried over just like my Rover.

And don't come it about being honest with the insurance as every detail was listed!

Bored now with the non petrol heads on here that have surfaced and only want to rubbish everything.

Oh lordy lol

First there was the war mentioned, now "top gear" and "petrol heads" I think my pants need modification to stop leakage from wetting myself laughing lol

I think it's probably wise that you have said you'll shutup now as you keep digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself and still arguing law and fact.

I do not watch top gear, well perhaps only their Christmas specials but I will assume you mean the Eagle E-Type conversions and assumption is the mother of all embarrasement. The vehicles come with a new homolgation certificate as they would not be allowed to be registered without it. How do I know? I've registered one in Spain for a client who had his in the UK. So please, stop talking absolute nonsense as you're just adding fuel to the fire and it is why the 'modding scene' has very little respect as it's full of armchair specialists who are full of enthusiasm but lack in knowledge, experience or fact.

Thanks for the laugh and inforcing my opinion of the 'scene' if anything lads lol

PS: Fancy a meet up in a Tesco's car park for a few doghnuts, sorry couldn't resist bringing some light hearted banter to an otherwise annoying hit your head against a wall thread.

I think it is difficult to understand why K 5ive ever asked the original question on this thread. Having now been fully informed of the situation he refuses to accept anything other than what’s in his own head. Perhaps this was only a research mission to see how he could continue his grease monkey car tinkering practices without being caught out. He has been in denial from start to finish on everything he has been told.

Some of the posts on here have been intentionally comical. Probably in breach of forum rules. But I think they were posted to identify what K 5ive really is. Which is a dangerous car bodger with no respect for either the law or public safety

I am sure he purchased his new 4.6 Range Rover engine, out of the box and brand new from a franchise dealer, with a guarantee of it being original equipment. And I am sure he did exactly the same with the Jaguar XJS brakes. It is beyond comprehension that K 5ive would do it on the cheap and endanger everyone’s life, by going to some knackers yard and buying these parts from an unknown ‘’write off’’..   

Well no answer from K 5ive on that, because the knackers yard is exactly where lame brain got them.

We’ve had it all from him, ‘’Boer war’’, "top gear" and "petrol heads". As put by other members ‘’he lives in cloud cuckoo land’’.

Thank God the authorities are trying to stop the likes of K 5ive and his Halfords car park mates, before they kill someone.