Modifying a Car in Spain , some clarification from experts required

 K5ive i really do despair you state "Shell the same, suspension Shock absorbers that fit in the same locations as the originals but gas uprated with lowered springs. Brakes fit onto the original legs,  Block same mounting as it is the same block so not changing anything apart from internal size, heads and induction system, original rover v8 so no change there. Not enough changes for the need of an SVA."

1/Shell the same, suspension Shock absorbers that fit in the same locations as the originals but gas uprated with lowered springs.,you dont consider the uprated performance may shake the original mounting to bits over a prolonged time after fitment

2/Brakes fit onto the original legs. We will come back to that one..............

3/ Block same mounting as it is the same block so not changing anything apart from internal size, heads and induction system, original rover v8 so no change there. Well if you think just because it fits...... to me fittinfg an engine of over 1,000 cc's  with increased performance and torque on an old mounting and bodyshell will work "just because it fits" you are back to the earlier mentioned cloud cuckoo land.

Returning to item 2/ you state replacing the brakes as they fit onto the original legs, but did you uprate the operating (master cylinder too? it may all work fine and dandy on a brake tester at a simulated 4 miles an hour, but when you apply them at 125 mph, the increased performance generates excess heat, boils the brake fluid to the point of brake failure, the master cylinder cant cope and YOU DIE.

I really do think you are uninformed and at best irresponsible, and as everyone tells you , you should now know better, regarding this possible new legislation, which it seems you will be trying to find a loophole around, as you seem to have done with past motoring legislation.

robertt8696 wrote;

" If rebuilding a Rover SD1 with a engine of increased capacity, Jaguar brakes, suspension uprated, "and numerous other modifications" is not major changes, maybe you could enlighten me and all the other contributors what is "

Unfortunately it doesn't constitute major changes. You have to abide by a 8/12 point difference to require iva approval.

http://www.minimag.co.uk/files/2011/08/M1-Inspection-Manual-May-09-1.pdf

So the above would not neccesarily constitute enough for testing.

The comment that an mot tester isn't qualified , as an engineer, to inspect & approve repairs to a vehicle would seem at odds to the DVLA's requirement for category c  write-offs to be MOt'd before Vehicle Inspection Certificate  inspections( to put repaired vehicles back on the road )  They seem to think that they are qualified to ascertain that major chassis repairs , etc ; are done competently ? Can't say I agree with that but there you go !

k5ive is not doing anything that is illegal nor different to any uprating done by some manufactureres. at least he uprated the brakes.To condemn him for , allegedly obtaing parts from breakers yards, well  here in Spain where do you think many main dealers get there parts from; even for new vehicles under guarantee ??   It is quite a regular occurence.

As someone who has re-registered many foreign vehicles & trailers . etc; here in Spain I can only reiterate my earlier posting . Safety doesn't come into it but compliance with the original spec.

Hooray for someone that speaks sense at last!  All the others seem to want to do is scaremonger, read the Daily Mail and want wave and point a finger from upon high about something they know nothing about.! So mentioning Top Gear and car modification makes me one of the lot from Halfords. How litle you know you know about car enthusiasts and just take on what you have read in the Daily Mail/Express. Why when people exhaust their debating skills does it always return to playground name calling. I give up! 

Oh the perils of putting up a car related question in an non car forum eh? It brings out all the self righteous Hyundai & Kia white goods driving brigade.

Has any one of you actually answered the question in the topic, (guslopez excepted) if anyone has taken it off topic it is you lot.

As for the parts, all bought brand new from independant specialists such as RPi and Rimmer Brothers to name but a couple (if that is any of your business). Of which there are many up and down the UK which would be serously affected by this new law. I hope I don't crash into any of you Perodua Nippa drivers either but at least if I do it will be safe in the knowledge that I am driving a genuine parts from the UK equipped Land Rover!  Not some locally repaired desguace special.

Oh yes BTW some very friendly ex pats on here too,  very friendly forum!

This message was last edited by K 5ive on 27/08/2012.

This message was last edited by K 5ive on 27/08/2012.

Well what do we have here then?

http://www.the-ace.org.uk/chassis-and-monocoque-modification/

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/RegisteringAVehicle/Registeringakitcarrebuildorradicallyalteredvehicle/DG_191068l

Put simply it does not break the points rule!

Complete bodyshell retained so thats the firewall unchanged then as well as the chassis. Steering gear unchanged, axle's unchanged as well as propshaft oh and the gearbox retained.  No rules broken. Blimey after all that I may just have buy it back to warrant all the effort. However I feel an MG ZT V8 or vauxhall Monaro coming along with my name on it!
 Happy motoring.

This message was last edited by K 5ive on 27/08/2012.

Your 2nd link didn't work. It appears to be this one;

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/RegisteringAVehicle/Registeringakitcarrebuildorradicallyalteredvehicle/DG_191515

Your 2nd link didn't work. It appears to be this one;

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/RegisteringAVehicle/Registeringakitcarrebuildorradicallyalteredvehicle/DG_19151
 

Right thanks for that, now back to hanging around the back of Feu vert and Norauto in my Freelander as has been stereotyped on here.

 Guslopez you say that K5ives Rover would not break the rules as he would not score enough by the rules.

"Unfortunately it doesn't constitute major changes. You have to abide by a 8/12 point difference to require iva approval."

This quote is erroneous in the form you quote it , as the 12 point score you mention is for the REGISTRATION of the vehicle, that is the issue of a numberplate to the said vehicle,and its IDENTITY, and is a check to make sure the major components are of an age that can be determined. If this is not possible the DVLA will issue a "Q" plate registration which a fair amount of kit cars get due to the fact the vehicle is sourced from many makes and models, and combined together to construct a car of indeterminate age. Due to this it was not classed as a complete source car, with no existing registration mark , so one has to be applied, hence a "Q" plate for a car of indeterminate age.

Once this test of a cars component parts has been applied , and a registration determined, then it can be submitted for IVA to ascertain its  engineering quality because the said vehicle has never been type approved, as i stated in earlier posts.Once this has been done and Vosa (as the test ministry is currently known) are satisfied with its saftey, security, and build quality ,after application of an identifying chassis number ,the vehicle can be submitted for its first MOT. After passing both examinations it may then be taxed and used on the highway.

Guslopez you are getting your vehicle examinations confused, and we are not talking about a 12 point REGISTRATION examination, we are talking about the vehicle being examined for the quality of its build and its safety, which is the check an IVA does. It is also said that the original thread has been missed along the way, and i assure you it has not, as the type of modification that K5ive has carried out in the past, is covered by existing legislation, which he has disregarded, and the proposed EU regulation discussed is also to deal with such modifications which make the vehicle depart from original TYPE approval.

I would also take this opportunity to tell you that for most of my working life i have worked in the motor trade, doing general repairs,"modifications", and also Classic marque restorations, and so i can confirm that I DO know what i am talking about, and i am not belittling your comments, or even as you have, resorted to self parody to cushion the effect of peoples posts.  Therefore i would say you should accept what is LAW even now, before the new EU regulation begins, and dont try to find ways round existing or pending law.

 Oh lookey here! something else i just turned up on the governments site about REGISTERING a vehicle..........

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/RegisteringAVehicle/Registeringakitcarrebuildorradicallyalteredvehicle/DG_191163

This page gives requirements to REGISTER the vehicle for the road (number plate) and if you read most of the requirments state that you need a SVA or IVA certificate before REGISTRATION can proceed, and needs to be produced when REGISTERING it for road use............

Excuse me what are you talikng about? It already had it's ID. It wasn't built from scratch it already had a reg it was not rebuilt .According to the ruling mentioned in my post! It was also registered on the log books as what it was, a 4.6. The car retained more than the parts listed in order to kep it's identity. It is there in black and white. When will you accept that an engine block swap and brakes change does not constitute a full rebuild! I won't  even mention the suspension as that does even count. Also if this law does come who suggested that either of us will try and aget around it? I certainly didn't. I will oppose it's forming however along with millions of others as a so called democracy gives us the right to do so.

robertt8696

Oh lookey here! something else i just turned up on the governments site about REGISTERING a vehicle..........

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/RegisteringAVehicle/Registeringakitcarrebuildorradicallyalteredvehicle/DG_191163

This page gives requirements to REGISTER the vehicle for the road (number plate) and if you read most of the requirments state that you need a SVA or IVA certificate before REGISTRATION can proceed, and needs to be produced when REGISTERING it for road use............

The sva/iva is only required if the 8 point test is failed . K5ives would not fail .

 " Your vehicle will need Individual Vehicle Approval (IVA), Single Vehicle Approval (SVA) or Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval (MSVA) if:

• it has less than eight points "

What points are given to what parts

Points are only given to the original major components used and are shown in the table below.

It has its original unaltered chassis + front & rear axles = 9 points = job done  Only needs to pass an MOT. No requirement for anything else.

 I quote Guslopez,

"Unfortunately it doesn't constitute major changes. You have to abide by a 8/12 point difference to require iva approval.

http://www.minimag.co.uk/files/2011/08/M1-Inspection-Manual-May-09-1.pdf

So the above would not neccesarily constitute enough for testing."

To abide by the 8/12 point difference to require IVA approval as HE quotes is wrong, the 8/12 points test is to determine how many ORIGINAL parts on a cars TOTAL construction are from the original donor vehicle to qualify for it to be classed as an ORIGINAL model of a determined age, and that 2/3rds of it is the ORIGINAL CAR. 

If the car is already REGISTERED it may retain its original REGISTRATION MARK if it satisfies this criteria (K5ives Rover), but if any parts have been replaced, or the ORIGINAL fabric of its total parts changed from its ORIGINAL SPECIFICATION the car no longer complies with its TYPE APPROVAL (due to its modified, non standard construction) and needs IVA inspection for its safety and security for all who might use it or be in close proximity to it.(again K5ives Rover). Also if the replacement parts are more than the MInistry specifies, you must then have the vehicle IVA tested to see its been properly constructed from a reliable point of view, and then they will consider if the vehicle is of indeterminate age, and maybe apply a "Q" plate rather than the registration currently on the vehicle, to truly reflect the sum of its parts. 

You do not seem to know the Difference between a REGISTRATION inspection(8/12 check) and a SAFETY inspection (IVA) applied to all "modded" or kit cars. Bear in mind the foregoing, and the thread of "modified cars in Spain" equally applies to this scenario, as it is a proposed EU regulation enforcable by ALL EU states.

As your post just says, your car DID have an existing ID, it WAS NOT built from scratch, and WAS NOT REBUILT, and yes, ALREADY had a REGISTRATION, so the 8/12 REGISTRATION evaluation Guslopez speaks of DID NOT apply to your ROVER. BUT, and i say BUT, the vehicle was substantially modified, which even you agree, and as such departed from TYPE APPROVAL, and as such should have been inspected for roadworthiness by the ministry before using on the road. How many times do you need explaining the situation? This will/ or is going to be the situation in the WHOLE of the EU if this law is passed.

Still not substantially modified enough to warrant an SVA.

The only thing that would count in that list would be the block change of 4600cc. Orginal axles, transmission, complete bodyshell, ie 11 points. Suspension was gas upgraded same any other change of suspension. 11 point, job done.

 the points system test you STILL are quoting is a test of the component parts of a vehicle, i quote myself from my last post,

the 8/12 points test is to determine how many ORIGINAL parts on a cars TOTAL construction are from the original donor vehicle to qualify for it to be classed as an ORIGINAL model of a determined age, and that 2/3rds of it is the ORIGINAL CAR. 

If the car is already REGISTERED it may retain its original REGISTRATION MARK if it satisfies this criteria (K5ives Rover), but if any parts have been replaced, or the ORIGINAL fabric of its total parts changed from its ORIGINAL SPECIFICATION the car no longer complies with its TYPE APPROVAL (due to its modified, non standard construction) and needs IVA inspection for its safety and security.

The subseqent IVA is a saftey  check on the Modifications applied to the car due to its departure from its factory manufactured specification, not the word "SAFETY" it has NOTHING to do with its IDENTITY, which as i stated also in my last post,

"As your post just says, your car DID have an existing ID, it WAS NOT built from scratch, and WAS NOT REBUILT, and yes, ALREADY had a REGISTRATION, so the 8/12 REGISTRATION evaluation Guslopez speaks of DID NOT apply to your ROVER."

You still seem to be confusing SAFETY with IDENTITY, and as you have drastically changed the performance characteristics by fitting a bigger more powerful engine, changed the suspension characteristics by lowering the springs and uprating the shock absorbers, and changing the braking characteristics by substituting the brake components, you need IVA testing to prove the roadworthiness and integrity of the vehicle before road use. it needs IVA because once modified it departs from the manufacturers original TYPE approval, which due to the modifications, no matter how well completed, renders that TYPE approval invalid

Well as for safety that is what MOT inspectors are for and they would be able to spott any weaknesses over time if any.

So what you are saying is that any lowered car in the uk at the moment has to have an SVA or whatever it is being called these days. That is an awful lot of illegal cars on the road then. Sorry just not buying it as the MOT guys would have been informed of this and would be looking out for things like this.

 The post you have just posted i agree with totally, Mot testers look for saftey and weaknesses over time, Anually.

And as you say, lowered suspension and uprated shock absorbers on their own, would not warrant an IVA on their own, but you had a highly modified vehicle with a larger capacity, more powerful engine , which you say you had declared to everyone, and uprated brakes from a Jaguar. well in my experience of a good MOT tester they would recognise that the brake components were not standard either, as they are not the same visual pattern as rover calipers.

So if it was inspected by a MOT tester thay would probably go no further than giving the vehicle a more exact inspection of the components, which you would not realise he was doing, as he would be visually inspecting them. 

As you had submitted it for an MOT,most MOT testers would consider that the owner, knowing what they were doing had submitted it fo a IVA safety check when first converted. I used to work at one MOT station some years ago, and there was a person used to submit a TR7 anually for its test, and the tester on its first presentation failed the vehicle for inefficient brake readings. The customer protested badly that he had modified the brakes and fitted competition pads, so the tester completed the MOT, and the only failure was the braking efficiency. As the tester had knowledge of tuning he made the customer drive about 5 miles with his foot on the brakes, and guess what? on his return the brakes passed due to the fact until competition pads are hot they dont work.

MOT testers and their knowledge..............I find MOT testers assume much, a  case of the cap fits, wear it, and as to the IVA, as you have turned up at their station, they assume you have completed the formalities prior to MOT testing.

Due to computerisation of testing a vehicle, soon all this certification will be openly available to an MOT tester, and verifiable at test presentation, rather than assumption as it stands now and in the past.

Why mess around, Just put one of these in it!

I'm starting to wonder if K Five is a legit user or a forum troll as he refuses to believe anything is said of him even when factual evidence is place before him.

I'm going to be as black and white as I possibly can so you may perhaps finally understand.

A trained monkey could be an MOT tester they have specific requirements to check and that is where it endsm, they do not check for replacement engines, not body modifications unless it's obvious, ie falling off or getting in the way of the steering and what not.

They're NOT engineers if they were we'd be paying more than 50 quid a time for an MOT.

They will check for example a wishbone, they will check the balljoints are intack and 'working' by working they just look for travel and tears in rubber. That's IT they wouldn't have a CLUE if they were looking at an OEM part that had cost thousands in R&D or a third party chinese knockoff with a TUV logo on it. They wouldn't have a clue that say perhaps the wrong kind of metal or moulding process has been used and so on.

So no, and MOT is just a very basic test with the assumption the vehicle is OEM standard with only a FRACTION of care taken to look outside that "box" of possibility.

If you asked an MOT tester 2 years ago what EU type approval was I bet the vast majority of them wouldn't have a CLUE and probably some still dont.

However knowing some MOT testers personally I can back what robert said up, they are now privvy to a lot more information on your vehicle than ever before and that data is being increased and improved every year. They now know if the vehicle has been a category insurance 'write off' and stuff like that. So one can only assume if this new law does come into force the database they are connected to will hopefully include modifications added to vehicles ; making the assumption that modifications will be allowed via a separate SVA/ESVA/IVA.

As I said, hopefully this new law will set the men from the boys when it comes to modifications to vehicles and only the ones who are serious about it will end up doing it as it will cost more to achieve their desires. That way it will keep the webforum 'massive' and halfords bridages at bay and that for me can't come soon enough and that is just my personal opinion as from my experience with joe public and modifications in GENERAL they don't know their arse from their elbow.

"  I'm starting to wonder if K Five is a legit user or a forum troll as he refuses to believe anything is said of him even when factual evidence is place before him."

As we've enquired on the RR forum & been told the same about you two .

I have been & trawled through the Vosa info . There is no requirement for a IVA.

The vehicles eligible for Individual Vehicle Approval (IVA) are:

• passenger cars and light goods vehicles*
• larger passenger vehicles, eg minibuses, buses, coaches
• medium to heavy sized goods vehicles, eg trucks, heavy-goods vehicles
• trailers

In many cases anyone who is unsure of whether the requirement to be inspected is necessary will ask the question & be directed to ask it of VOsa.  Most members would then comply with their interpretation. Members building from the ground up normally work with Vosa to ensure that come testing

Most modify to ensure that there is no requirement to be tested . All disclose total modifications as it is foolish not to as you are going to lose the lot in the event of an accident & non-declaration..

I always declared , why not ?   Since I moved to Spain some years ago I don't really do much these days as I'm certainly not wasting my time  if I've got to get even the fitment of some auxiliary lighting inspected !  I confine myself to pulling up Spanish officialdom on there illegal laws under   EU rules.

 Guslopez, i totally agree that K5ives Rover would not need an IVA test on the basis of the compliance of its construction, from a REGISTRATION evaluation. This is because K5ive selected parts that do not add up to  a total for the special REGISTRATION of the vehicle, and if it did an IVA would be needed to ascertain the integrity of the vehicle from the point that said vehicle was assembled from multiple vehicles, each of uncertain age. The IVA in this case is to ascertain the vehicle has been assembled competently, and complies with TYPE approval for that vehicle. If it does not the likely result would be the REGISTRATION removed, and a "Q" plate applied for vehicles that are not clearly of original construction.

As  K5ives Rover had the engine capacity increased through replacing, and also the brakes modifying, both are items that need to be safely constructed and assembled, and as such VOSA  would want to inspect that vehicle for its build design and safety, therefore a IVA is needed due to the vehicle departing from TYPE approval.

IVA is the VOSA method of checking mechanical condition of an INDIVIDUAL vehicle, which is why its now called IVA, rather than SVA. They dont have multiple ministry checks such as "The Registration Check", " "The Modified Vehicle Check" "The Off  Roaders Vehicle Check" and numerous other checks that could doubtless be named. It is far easier for VOSA to apply a standard test for vehicle integrity and safety, and i am afraid to inform you, IVA is it.

Do not think that somehow you and K5ive can modify a vehicle and depart from its manufacturers stated TYPE approval, and the vehicle never need inspecting. If that was so, you could remove your Rover 3,500 cc engine and shoehorn some colossal engine in that would squeeze into the bodywork, and would do 0 to 60 quicker than you could cough. And then fit brakes to it from a Fiat 500. Do you think it would stop? dont you think that Vosa would wish to inspect it? I know what i have just proposed sounds a crazy modification that only the insane would attempt, maybe, but thats why any  modification departing from TYPE approval is required to be inspected by VOSA, as the line has to be drawn somewhere, and departing from TYPE approval is one.

 I would like some more information on this subject as well on the rules for car modification in Spain.  (information - not pointless bickering and squabling please).

As I understand (from the gestor that helped me with changing my car to H plates)   its possible to have certain things modified but it must be done by an "approved" garage/installer and verified by an engineer.  No one seems to know what is exactly is involved - the gestor has never had to go through this procedure before and had hinted that I should have made the modication in the UK - and had the English paperwork changed  and then imported the car. 

When I imported my car it already had several other modifcations which the engineer did not mention during his inspection and it was not mentioned on the subsequent "first"  ITV inspection.  A few of these were glaringly obvious to anyone who knew the particular car I have.  

Has anyone been through the official channels for modification?