End to Mediterranean dream?

Hello, We ran a well established estate agents in Tarragona, we caught a local lad stealing, he admitted all guilt, the court, yes the court, hid his case, the judge took 78,000euros from us and gave his parents our properties, as we were selling up to retire, this has never been resolved although the 78000euros was returned at a cost of 120,000 as it was proven ,No paperwork was done, the only evidence it had been paid was a bank reciept. Do not talk spain up, it does not deserve it, over 110.000 people have problems with property in spain from the UK, nothing will ever be done, see the reality and get out, rent if you must settle never put your life savings into Spain.

As JWhite has pointed out, we do have to recognise that for SOME the' dream' has turned into a nightmare. Much of what Mickytfinn said is, imho true. A lot of people can live with the corruption in Spain and it doesn't affect them, other can't. You certainly can't if you have been cheated out of your life savings. Our experience has been neither a dream nor a nightmare but we did realised early on that we wouldn't like to live in Spain but would enjoy entended holidays there.(unfortunately not before we had bought our apartment!).

I might add that for SOME, to live in the Uk would be a dream. Have you seen the number of people in Calais trying to get across the channel? Nothing to do with the weather, of course!

Baz1946 - I did read MickeyFinn's post first time round and thought it was rather patronising and highly subjective.  Just read it again as you suggested and my view is unchanged.

I don't understand why you highlight it - it's just a pesonal opinion and not at all persausive.  Of course there will be some that agree, but that doesn't make anyone right or wrong, it's just an opinion and certainly not mine.

Spain is just like anywhere else in the world it's got it's pros and cons, it's just a matter of how important these are for you individually.  Personally I can cope with the bureaucracy and I've leant the need to be sceptical and untrusting, so I hope I'm less likely to get suckered.

There will be some you have symapthy for who are victims of the economic downturn in Spain and equally those who have lost a partner and feel the need to be back with their family.

But most folk I know in Murcia love the place and the dream continues.  But this is mainly just people like me, retired or semi retired and not reliant on earning in Spain.  For us not much has changed.

BHTHE -

Agree with regards to corruption and bureaucracy.   We are still waiting for the 1200 euros we are owed by the Spanish Tax office after 19 mths and our gestoria stated when I was angry that we had still not received our money when we had a letter via her dated 14th March that the money was being paid and we hadn't received it, that we were being unreasonable as there were one million people like us waiting for their tax and we must be patient and wait our turn and that they only paid out when a query arose about payment, every 2 months !!    They have had access to our money and millions of others as an interest free loan account.  I was made to feel like I was being unreasonable about wanting our money back when in fact we never really owed it in the first place, having lost 55% equity on the sale of the property so in theory should never have owed anything anyway !!   

The spanish government should not expect people to want to come and buy property and live in their country when they are so openly corrupt in the first place !!

acer, I don't see patronising in Mickyfinn's post, all I see is what more then enough posters on here have said over the past months about Spain, and still are, subjective of course it could be, but the reality of it still stays the same and he / she spoke much of the reality and didn't ask for the follow up posts as if the post was done in the way of a personal attack, which it wasn't, sadly no matter what anyone believes of Spain, in many cases it can be very hard for the many.

Thankfully for me it's not,  but I think even you have to admit since the post it does seem to be more in favour that Spain is hard and possible getting harder.

We all know the grass isn't always greener on the other side....Lets hope that doesn't apply to those who choose to come back as well.

Camposol.  Johnzx- why do you not agree that rental income should be taxed in Spain and not UK?

Campo,   It’s not what I consider should or should not be, it is the law as dictated by the Double Taxation Agreement between Spain and UK.-    There is no possiblity of choosing where any tax must be pàid.

Double post error 

You did read paragraph 3 of mickeyfinn's post?

Yes, mariedav, read it through a couple of times, presume you mean the bit about the house's, I also did say 75% I thought was true, that bit I didn't agree about.

If you think the moaners have won then all the more reason to keep going at the good points of Spain, some things I don't agree with but if you go to any other country you either accept, or leave, after all isn't this what the UKIP is all about with the UK and immigration right now.

You wouldn't believe how I stick up for Spain when we get together and have the general banter putting the world to rights but if I think something about Spain is wrong then I say it, same with the UK, but it aint gonna change because I don't like it,  take the stupid way they go about registering cars for instance, of course comparing to the UK, but thats how it is so accept it.

I also think many who do decide to come back are in for a shock in more ways then one.

I am not disillusioned with Spain. I never had the illusion to begin with. I was expressing a personal view on Spain having studied the subject of immigration over many years and how foreigners use a coping mechanism for living in another land. The subject is only of academic interest to me.

However I have to say of all the places available to choose to live in the world, Spain would be way down my personal list.

Immigrants to other countries generally fall into a number of categories. There are those from a relatively comfortable background who are disenchanted with their own native country and seek what they believe is a better life usually based on a great holiday experience and little else. They who are escaping tyranny, economic migrants who seek employment and older people who have enough resources to choose to live in a better climate towards the end of the lives.

I was also making the point that the so called ‘dream’ is manufactured by those seeking to profit from it and yes the people waiting in Calais to enter the UK also have a 'dream' except to my knowledge they don't call it that. 

The impact of living in a new country affects people in very different ways. They also use a variety of methods of dealing with the situation, consciously or not.

The anger generated by some posters to my comments is actually quite a normal response. Anyone who attempts to burst a bubble in the interests of objectivity is in for trouble.

I was also trying to make the point that coastal Spain whilst having the same problems as anywhere else it is also a melting pot of many different mainly European societies. Yet it’s interesting to see that these immigrants tend to gravitate towards areas populated by their own nationals. That is true historically of immigration the world over, Spain is not unique it’s the same as anywhere else.

This subject is too vast to maintain a useful discussion on a web forum but if it makes a few people think about it in an objective way it may achieve something

This message was last edited by Mickyfinn on 29/04/2014.

Micky   I was expressing a personal view on Spain having studied the subject of immigration over many years

I was expressing my experience of close association with Spain for over 40 years and living permanently in Spain for over 25 years.

Sorry Micky as I said I do not recognise the Spain you 'have studied.'    Or maybe I misunderstood and that you are maybe describing  people, whom you beleive have failed to achieve what they had hoped for

Ref. (The spanish tax man claiming tax on uk rentals), i dont think it is the number one priority to go and look for uk rentals when it much easier to go at  the 100000s of properies in spain being rented out and people not paying tax.Lets face it hmrc will have no idea who is renting or living  in the uk , so what chance will the spanish have in the uk.

Jonzn wrote: Sorry Micky as I said I do not recognise the Spain you 'have studied.'    Or maybe I misunderstood and that you are maybe describing  people, whom you beleive have failed to achieve what they had hoped for

Do I understand from that statement that you believe Spain is not like everywhere else? The descriptions of Spain I gave were meant to illustrate that the county suffers with exactly the same woes as most other developed nations. It is not a unique Nivarna.

I believe most immigrants who have a prior illusion of another place rarely have it satisfied. It's better to believe in warts and all first and then there is no disappointment. Of course you can always live in denial and if that works for you then good luck.

Casper

As a Spanish resident you don't pay tax on UK held property per se. What you do pay tax on is any income derived from this property ie rentals etc, as a Spanish tax resident you would also be liable for CGT if you sold the property and also IHT liabilities if you die. The income from the property is taxed at your marginal rate after assessing your total taxable earnings less personal allowances. If the value of the property is over 50k€ you are also obliged to declare it on a modelo 720 asset declaration form. Unlike Spanish non resident tax you are allowed to offset expenses against your UK property income such as mortgages, agents fees, improvements and repairs.

• Income band                           Tax rate
• €0 - €17.007                           24,75%
• €17.007 - €33.007                    30%
• €33.007 - €53.407                    40%
• €53.407 - €120.000                  47%
• €120.000 - €175,000                49%
• €175.000 - €300.000                51%
• more than €300.000                 52%

Mickyfinn. Personally, I found your points very interesting and agreed with them. I, too, have been the object of a lot of anger when I have presented an authentic experience of my own life in Spain. Like you said, people really don't like you bursting their bubble. And like you, I think forewarned is forearmed. Many people have read my blog and most of them have not been put off moving to Spain as a result of it; they have, however, had a few ideas regarding what they should avoid to make that life less stressful.

Just to add, re my previous post before I'm nit picked.

If you are a Spanish tax resident and own a UK property that you derive income from, you still need to submit a tax return to HMRC and account for it there. When you submit your Spanish tax return any tax paid/deducted in the UK will be deducted from your Spanish liability via recipropal agreements

Further to Team GB post, there are also the peronal allowances to be deducted.

Single person allowance €5151

Married Couples allowance €3400

There are also other allowances such as children/parents at home, disability allowance and so on. Age allowances are 65 and over €6069 and 75 and over €7191.

You don't just add the single person allowance to the married couple allowance. You deduct the 3400 from the income to get a taxable figure and multiply that by the tax rate.. You then take the single person allowance and multiply it by the basic tax rate so 5151x24% or €1236. If your tax after deduction the married person allowance was, say, €5000 then you deduct the 1236 from that giving you a tax liability of  €3764.

Also note that the rates shown by Team GB vary from region to region at the higher rates. For example, Andalucia is 1 higher for those earning 80,000 or more but 1% less for those in Valencia.

If both partners are earning, it may be better to submit two individual returns (you cannot do that if only one person is earning).

You have to make an initial declaration. In subsequent years, if your earning have tax deducted at source you do not have to make a declaration if your taxable earnings are below €22,000. (Unless you are being paid by more than one employer in which case it is reduced to 10,200).