UK LEAVING THE EU

"There are 3 M of our fellow citizens, men and women, in this country whose jobs rely directly on our participation in (the EU) "

Nick Clegg 31 October 2011"

Nick Clegg was not the only lib dem to say this frequently, although since they were recently challenged they have only said ”jobs".

They still cannot justify it.

The statement originally comes from a 2000 South Bank University study which was shown to be defective.

So yes it is Lib Dem nonsense.

Also:

I only post under this one name - Tteedd

Debate is all about attacking the other viewpoint. Preferably with reasoned factual information. I agree the making things up is wrong, but here the not even the mote seems to be in my eye.

Some interesting comments and comparison

I agree the EU is not working but change is needed with proper democracy, a united approach and a target to improve the lives of all citizens

Why should one state (town, tribe or village) prosper whilst others suffer that is simply not humane it is selfish beyond belief.

The idea that a united EU will cause a war is a bit odd when it is individual states that fight be it tribes, villages, counties states or countries that in the past have causes many wars. We have not had a war between EU / EEA countries EU since WW2 which must be the longest peacetime in history!

I wonder how many wars were started by the people – my knowledge of history tells me wars were caused by greedy crazy leaders, money grabbers, land grabbers, brainwashers etc. People were made to fight, kill and maim other human beings for what reason exactly????

As an aside and a different viewpoint I think it was the UK who declared war on Germany not the other way round – there are lots of reasons why the UK declared war but…….

Freedom of movement, sharing wealth and services should be a top priority for any govt.

It is not about political domination but equality and working together (e.g. the 4 nation UK)

We are NOT that different – we all love our children and want the best for them.

Different religions, cultures should be respected by all under diversity, care, acceptance, and respect. WE can live together and work together we have to STOP thinking about ourselves and care and share should be the motto - once we get this and move away from this stupid nationalistic pride and small tribal mentality forced upon us from the media et al we will all prosper

Why do people think that just because they were fortunate to have been born in the UK that they are better than anyone born in another country or have more rights to a better life and an attitude “I’m alright jack and you aren’t getting nothing from me”.

The only answers are

Greed, greed and more greed

and

Selfishness, selfishness and more selfishness

and

Brainwashed by peers, leaders, cultures, religions, fanatical groups and the media

Religions and cultures – do they really promote selfishness or do they promote sharing, caring and happiness for all ofther community. How anyone can follow a religion (or any other organisation) that has its roots and foundations built in slavery, torture, greed, selfishness, war, disrespect of women, hypocrisy and inability (or resistance) to change is simply beyond me

Oops how silly of me the reality is that religions, communities, govts, councillors, leaders, tribes etc. insist that everyone should agree with them and if  they don’t they will attack them until they do.

The sooner we stop looking at the history of the EU (looking backwards), complaining about the faults, stop looking for silly excuses as to why we are different and start looking at how we can fix this together and start caring about our fellow human beings and the future of all children the better.

 The reason the Brits are better then many is because the Brits are very tolerant of others, care for others, the list goes on as to why the Brits are a better people, you don't have to look no further then the people we take in from other rubbish countries who then try to turn our country into what they messed up and left behind, it's only people that mess up a country.

Why shouldn't a country prosper? after all if the country that is going downhill fast cant see whats wrong with it why should another one that has prospered help it out? a fact that has happened with the EU and the UK just of late, we got a fine because we did well (So our leaders would have us believe, doing well that is) so we got of our butts, worked the problem out,  worked to fix it, every last Man Women and Child in England has suffered over the past years, are we supposed to give this away to others who want to sit back and take the handouts?

England declared war on Germany because it went into Poland and the way Germany was at the time it would have taken over, and controlled any it could have, and if the people of others that were taken over were led to believe, as the Germans were, they also were the greatest nation alive then what would have stopped them taking over England.

Different religions should be respected, that should be preached to the Muslims who according to them no other religion should exist and are doing their best to make sure that happens.

The EU is not working, it don't take a genius to see that, stupid laws, rules, again the list goes on, it was never intended to be what it is now, so we were told.

baz

fair comments but what about the brits who live in the so called propserous south don't they help the less fortunate who live in less prospersous areas in the midlands and the north - double standards really. You could argue that a village or an area that propers should go for devolution instead of contirbuting to a society that helps all (=greed and selfisness) where do you draw the line?

maybe an EU with ONLY prosperous countries

brits are NOT better than anyone else in any situation and most people are tolerant of others we are all human beings with teh same basic needs ther are plenty of scroungers everywhere including many brist who are among the laziest, intolerant, selfsih, racist people in the world (as there are in many countries)

justifing declaring war or making the first punch is not an excuse - germany may have conquered the rest of europe then came after UK we will never know but the fact remains they did not declare war on UK the UK threw the first punch in so called defence of others - is that right ? We said it was wrong in Iraq and Afghanistan!!!!!!!!!

A lot of people were killed on both sides and a lot of families destroyed for WHAT!!! do we want that again as smaller independnen greedy states with crazy leaders will use the prosperity to brasnwash the people to attack and claim other lands and the resources of the less proerpsous lands (bullying, greed, power etc)

The propserous will always try and take from the poor a united EU with common goals, budgets and equality will prevent this as long as a democratic govt is elected by the people with prioriteis for ALL and not the few

Elitism NEVER works

Actually the UK does help the less prosperous countries in the EU. It is one of the few countries that pays more in than it receives.  

The European Union in its original form was to create a single market for iron and steel. It had nothing to do with the prevention of war, creation of a single trading block to rival the US or any other of the propaganda spiel that has come out of the mouths of successive European socialist politicians ever since.

Now a cabal of left leaning unelected politicians has for years plotted and schemed to drawn up a blue print for a collective, united, super state called Europe to rival that of China and the US. If war and conflict is your fear that rivalry will eventually sow greater seeds for disater than smaller states scrapping over disputed territory.

These politicians and their successors who have these super state ambitions with Germany and France in control will stop at nothing to achieve their aims. No common sense or restraint will prevail.  

Britain will and should leave the EU and align the country to an ever closer relationship with the USA.  General de Gaulle was right when he said the British can never become Europeans in the true sense of the word. Culturally the British and the Latin’s are and always have been poles apart.

Anglo Saxons will always unite and prosper within real freedoms and democracy. Not a European vision of regulation, control, unaccountability and restrictive practice.

Tad1966.

I'm not sure if your position on the EU is based on reading Mein Kampf, The thoughts of Chairman Mao, a deep religious conviction or a notion that everybody should be the same.

Having worked in the Middle East for almost 5 years (including under curfew in Iran) and on the streets of London for a much longer period, the ideology that you seem to have is admirable and I defend your right to express it but doubt your arguments have are based on any concept of reality.

The UK and many other countries joined the European Economic Community for trade co-operation not political control by unelected foreigners who have no respect for our culture or opinions. Mission creep led to the Eurozone, excessive spending, bad management and corruption, which in turn led to the Eurozone crisis. Have a look at the EC Anti Corruption report dated 3rd February 2014 "Corruption alone is estimated to cost the EU economy EUR 120 billion per year, just a little less than the annual budget of the European Union."

On the subject of leaving the EU, Eurosceptic MP Bill Cash summed it up nicely, on the day the corruption report was published, pointing out amongst other things, that major companies were coming to the UK to establish EMEA bases (Europe, Middle East and Africa) because of the lack of growth and uncertainty in Europe, asking which country would you go to France, Spain, Italy, Germany? Or the smaller northern European or new Eastern European countries?

Quite simply, I don't believe if we left the EU we would stop trading with Europe, it is not strong enough to do so or penalize us. If it did then maybe we would take energy production away from French Companies and profits from the Railways away from the German State owned railway company.

Spain would still want our money through tourism and resettlement of wealthy pensioners, and to sell us it's tomatoes, peppers and chorizo. And Nurses.  

my notion on teh EU is quite simple and the same as the union of the Uk "we are better and stronger together" under a proper elected govt with common goals for the care and eqaulity (from freedom of movememt to taxes) of all citizens of the union - no other agenda simple really

UK and the EU may continue trading in teh short trem but how many companies in the UK are owned by other EU countries and how many would withdraw as some thretaened to do if Scotland had of gone independent

How many jobs woudl be suddenly transferred to EU countries?

The EU would not collaspse without the UK but I fear the UK economy would and the people would suffer

Remember within the EU the priority to buy goods often lies with EU countries first, other countries second

Wil UK try and saty in EEA - would they be accepted

The Uk may have a strong economy for now but still a relatively small piece of the jigsaw and any influnece the UK have on global fiscal policies will be very limted.

Non EU countries with companeis in UK woudl also question being in the UK if the EU market is tightened the UK does NOT have a large manufacturing base that is owned by the UK

Britain had the same influence in the world prior to EU membership as it does now. Leaving the EU would make no difference at all to that. Britain has the fifth largest economy in the world and has a seat on the security council at the UN.  Britain gained its nation state stature over centuries. The idea it only has influence because it’s inside Europe is laughable and plain wrong.

The world would not cease trading with the UK just because it left the EU. An independent UK would reduce trade barriers further to compensate and would compete favorably with EU states in the global market place.

Jobs would not leave the UK because labour costs are higher in Europe. An independent UK would ensure its labour market competed favorably with the rest of Europe. Eastern Europeans flock to work in the UK now even though wages are very low in the unskilled sectors. That would still happen in an independent Britain. Europe is a high cost, highly regulated, burdened market place. Why would jobs suddenly disappear over the Channel? Companies need a highly skilled and educated workforce at low cost.

The EU market is small in comparison to the remainder of the world. However Europe will still buy UK goods if the market price is competitive. Britain would make sure that happened. Just as it would continue to trade with Europe but on its own terms.

EU companies would remain in the UK if the tax rates are beneficial and the restrictive practices of the EU are removed. Britain could and would operates as an off shore investment haven attracting investment from around the world unshackled from European regulation.

Britain has a strong economy now despite Europe which continues to languish in the economic doldrums. Britain controls its own currency and the economic leavers of power. When that happens countries return to prosperity much faster after recession than a centralised Europe ever can. It’s an example of how economic independence actually works.

I predict the Eurozone nations will struggle for years to come along the lines of Japan. They will suffer continued deflation and stagnation until Germany allows the ECB to act with meaningful policies that expand its balance sheet and weaken the Euro substantially.

I have no doubt Britain will leave the EU sometime after the 2017 referendum if it is allowed to take place. If the Labour party win power in 2015 it will not. However since there seems to be a majority of the population that seeks exit from Europe I doubt that will happen if the ruling party get its act together and EU exit becomes a real issue.

UKIP will see to that if they can appeal to labour voters.

mickeyfinn

so labour cost in UK are less than in all EU countries - i dont think so!!!

regulations (which many are global eg montreal protocol)  - and the UK have none give me a break will we ignor ethem and go back to sweat shops, will an indepedent UK ignore CE directives for example

how many companies on UK are owned by EU countries?

how many are owned by non EU countries to access the EU market?

howe many banks are owned by non UK companies

in order to be global player you need to be part of lartge team and the UK cannot reley on its old empire mentality - we are NOT that important or influential any more. Loss of EU status will devastate the UK and the seat on the security council and influence in NATO will be in serious question

The UK are seen by many in EU (and RoW) as a small nation who make a lot of noise, arrogant, small minded, selfish, not team members and an overal pain in the butt and an exit from the EU will be seen as chance to put the UK firmly in its place and teach the arrogance a valuable lesson in how NOT to behave on the world stage

How many none EU countries are devastated by loss of influence in the world? Are the Canadians, Australians or South Africans bemoaning their lack of global status? Britains seat on the security council was because of WW11 and is permanent.

Companies are owned by the shareholders who only care about their returns and value. It matters not where they happen to be in the world. If companies remain profitable the owners will not give a hoot if the UK is not part of the EU. Remember the EU is not geographical Europe. Many rich countries such as Norway and Switzerland choose to remain only free trade members. Poorer nations are desperate to join the gravy train.

The City of London operates globally and banks locate there because of lesser market regulation and restrictions. That will probably improve and prosper outside the EU.

Labour costs on business include government social security and taxation charges. These are what makes many EU countries none competitive. In France almost 50% of labour costs are taken by government. Small business is crippled by overheads in many EU nations.

The billions Britain gives to the EU every year can be used to reduce the deficit and put the UK current account in the black. Britain does not need the EU but the EU needs Britain very badly.  

sorry mickyfinn we will have to agree to disagree

you seem to have a view the UK is great and offers the world something special

 the reality is the UK has been punching way above its weight for far to long and sorry to say this arrogance will be the demise of the UK

I'm fine with that Tadd. This subject is very polarising you are either for or against. Not many people sit on the fence.

Actually I don't like the UK as a country very much and have not lived there for well over thirty years and rarely visit. However it's the politics of the EU I dislike even more. I have seen how Europe has changed in that time and in my opinion for the worse. People are not richer in monetary terms and certainly poorer in cultural identity.

I dislike homogeneity. The political idea that one size can fit all. I like the diverseness of European culture. The federalists will, if given their head turn Europe into a bland form of a greater Germanic state. That is their principal aim despite all they say in public.

The greatest nationalist in Europe, the French have actually had enough and in actual fact are greater Euro skeptic’s than the British but for different reasons. If Britain leaves the EU there will be an econmic ripple. If France leaves the EU the entire project will collapse. I look forward to both these days.

Mickyfinn

This subject is very polarising you are either for or against. Not many people sit on the fence.

Nice one and a good healthy debate with no sillies or know it alls etc enjoyed the differing views and comments