40,000 signatures collected for Palomares nuclear fall-out clean-up

I must be reading a different forum then, if floella expressed such a strong defence of Palomares then.   I cannot see any score being settled and I agree with floella entirely.   And of course it is within your rights to express your opinion, scambuster and I would be interested to be pointed in the direction of anyone who indicated otherwise.   But that is all it is - an opinion - and mine, and floella's are just as valid as yours.   

It was she who is talking about 'settling a score' not me and I agree with Mickyfinn entirely, and of course you are also within your rights to express your opinion Roly. I will no doubt be continuing this debate but if someone wishes to go on the attack as she did in her 3rd March 18.56 post  then don't expect me not to respond.

I also agree entiely with 40,000 people who have signed a petition LOL

I have looked back at it and still cannot see that it is either offensive or over defensive.   I don't really understand the forum being alluded to business?   But she/he is just expressing an opinion.

Extract from leaked US Cables to Madrid Ambassador April 2009. It clearly refers to prior knowledge of serious contamination and pressure from developers. The cynical belief they (the US) could hold off from further clear ups because of the housing crisis is pretty disgusting. In fact the reality is they have done just that.

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09MADRID432_a.html

Seeking to Finish the Program ----------------------------- 6.(SBU) As we understand it, lead agencies in both governments would like to end the program. DOE has spent over $3 million on Palomares in the last decade alone. CIEMAT would like a final cleanup, especially as measurements in 2001 led it to believe that remaining contamination might be more serious than previously believed. Cost may also be a factor in CIEMAT,s eyes; it has said it has about 100 employees working an average of half their time on Palomares issues. In addition, growth in the Palomares area over the last decade has led to pressure from the local government and developers who would like to construct housing on the site, which is near the coast. (Spain,s current housing slump and construction collapse may reduce this pressure in the short term, but CIEMAT remains very interested in a final cleanup.)

El Pias did an exposure in 2010 of the realities of the situation.

http://elpais.com/elpais/2010/12/10/actualidad/1291972646_850215.html

 'Pressure from local Government and developers who would like to construct housing on the site' says it all, I wonder how cheap the land was?

Exactly - in 2010.    And the contamination can be considerably worse than first thought, without being  a danger to health.    And of course they would like to build in the contaminated areas, but doesn't the fact that they have not already done so make you doubt your implied conclusion that property, including Desert Spring, has been built on contaminated land?  And also note from your own quotation:   'the remaining contamination MIGHT be more serious than previously believed.'    Quite a lot of ifs and buts - or as in the piece, mights and mays!!!  

if there's still contamination however large or small it needs clearing, people are entitled to certainty when dealing with this area and with Spanish property wherever. No I don't doubt at all that the resort you refer might have been built either on or very close to contaminated land after all this is Spain and it would have been very cheap land bought for a quick or healthy buck. 

Why take the chance when there's vast areas of uncontaminated ground all over Spain?

BBC News 22/10/12 says 'So almost everyone has forgotten about Palomares except the people of Palomares, that's because the US clean-up operation missed some areas of contamination' Spanish investigator Carlos Sanchez says 'the earth there can't be moved because the plutonium is latent in the soil, if disturbed the plutonium could be disturbed'

Sums it up by saying 'So Palomares is like a sleeping dragon'

Desert Springs has not been built on designated contaminated land. It is however very close to the zone which has been long established as polluted with high grade plutonium, long before the development was given permissions to construct.

Now I'm no scientist but on every level of common sense this must suggest that at the very least it was not a good idea to build there. I could make a wager with a high degree of certainty of winning that the existing property owners were never informed of these facts. 

That’s a historical mistake for which little can be done to correct. In my experience property owners try to make the best of a misconceived purchase and don’t want it discussed.  They either try and sell up handing the problem to someone else or just get on with it.

Developers in the area are in the forefront of trying to get the polluted zone cleaned up. It’s in their best commercial interests of course. It would stop public debate and suggestions their development is at risk. Locals who live there just shrug and say cancer statistics suggest there are no adverse risks.

Neither of those attitudes grasp there real point here that both the US and the Spanish government have been guilty of gross negligence for almost fifty years. The land should have been cleaned to international atomic agency standards. No development in or near the zone should have been granted and steps should have been taken to effective seal off the area along the lines of the polluted zones of the Los Alamos, New Mexico. Imagine the State of New Mexico granting permission to build condos and a golf course next to that?

Is it 4 or 5 billion pounds that the cost of clearing up Sellafield has gone up in a year?   And I am pretty certain houses are still sold and bought in the vicinity.  We are talking relatively low costs and very low levels of contamination here in Palomares.    

Roly2 clearly two of us disagree with you and Floella so that is not going to alter, you have your opinions we have ours. 

Palomares is a hot topic every now and then and developers/agents witheld information that was important for decision making.  That was reprehensible when it no doubt involved life savings in some cases, especially if it does end up in Court, property devalues or health issues. 

I now see loads of debate on Communities that people have joined such as Almanzora Country Club, Oasis Thabernax, Trampolin Hills, Roda Golf, Corvera, Aifos, Almanzora Oasis, Las Dunas de Cope etc I shall read these with interest. It appears many people were mis-sold on several of these, maybe not radiation issues but typical Spanish development issues leaving people in the lurch. However it begs the question how close to Desert Springs are the 2 Almanzora projects for instance?

BTW 15/05/14 (so quite recent) Costa Almeria News 'Palomares nuke stonewalling by Spanish Government over crucial US Dept of Energy radiation report'

I'd leave Sellafield for a British forum as it might be more relevant there!

Just making a point about how expensive, long term and secretive nuclear contamination clear up is - where ever it is. 

Don't waste too much time on those forums though - Almanzora Country Club does not exist, neither does Oasis Thabernax.   They were started by the now bankrupt (I think) Huma Developer and the issue for Almanzora was lack of proper paperwork.   People did lose money, and a few are still waiting for the return of money which has been coming far too slowly.   Oasis never really got off the ground.  It was a figment of Huma's imagination, and an attempt to lure buyers away from Almanzora.   Oasis should never have got permission because it is in the middle of the most spectacular desert landscape, so thank goodness the bottom fell out of the market.  Trampolin Hills, I think again the developers - or some of them - actually went to jail, though probably not for long enough.  Again, licence issues.  I stay at Roda Golf with friends quite often, and I don't think anyone would claim they were missold - just victims of the crash.  Fully legal, and rather nice properties, though a bit samey for me.  

What is the relevance of the distance between Desert Spings and Almanzora or Oasis?   I have never heard even the most stung buyer claim a misselling on the basis of radiation.  

I have been in Almeria long enough to follow all of this, and I am mightily relieved the developments were stopped - but they came a cropper because of the property crash, not radiation worries.  There are a lot of horrible developments around Vera (close to the site), but just because the property price collapsed does not mean people are entitled to compensation for misselling, as most of these were perfectly legal - and outside of the very narrow contamination site.   

Almanzora CC and Oasis Tabernos were never completed everything coming to a halt c 2008. Never seen them but apparently both sites are derelict . No community forums since just the rare posting re refunds.

Read there are similar problems with Trampolin Hills and Aifos but others you mention unable to find any news. Be it good or bad.

Roda and Corvera both up and running, though of course they did not reach the scale intended.   Some residents at Roda I believe went to court over lack of promised facilities, but that too was a long time ago, I think they were able to withdraw with just loss of deposit.     Corvera suffers because of the will it won't it airport.   Interesting name that:  Scambuster, but I think you will find that all of these particular scams, in as much as they were scams (rather than just catastrophic property investment) are all pretty much old hat - and while I sincerely hope that those who lost money and are still waiting, do get it back, most of them have not 'lost' nearly as much as those of us who bought property and completed before the crash (in as much as you can lose a speculative amount you are investing in property).  

Roly wrote:

I sincerely hope that those who lost money and are still waiting, do get it back, most of them have not 'lost' nearly as much as those of us who bought property and completed before the crash (in as much as you can lose a speculative amount you are investing in property). 

Yes but at least you have a property that may increase in value reducing the losses. Unless of course you have an atomic polluted neighbour.

Yet there again apathy and ignorance rules and as has been indicated on here plutonium pollution is not seen as any big deal.  That may be only because this issue has been around for so long and people get activisim fatigue.

Yes, I agree, and I am very happy with what I have, and have no intention of selling, therefore it does not feel like a loss. I am not ignorant or apathetic.   I simply keep things in perspective.

" I am not ignorant or apathetic.   I simply keep things in perspective.

Spot on Roly2.  

Although you and I are familiar with the area under discussion none  of us know who is reporting the truth so being disrespectful to those with a different opinion is unnecessary. 

You are being over sensitive. I did not make any suggestion you personally were apathetic or ignorant. I was referring to   the general reason why no proper clean up at Palomares has been done. If anyone is ignorant or apathetic it's without doubt the Spanish authorities and CIEMAT.

Had the local people consistently lobbied the government to remove the plutonium pollution it would undoubtedly have been done by now. People get on with their lives. The pollution does not leap out of the dark and bother them. It gets forgotten until in 100 year’s time for whatever reason the plutonium emerges and bites them back.

That is the nature of the beast.

The Independent in 2011 says this 'As plutonium decays it converts into another radioactive substance, americum, which is highly carcinogenic & can be released into the atmosphere' goes on to say 'unless a permanent clean-up is sorted out soon, a small problem will keep on getting bigger' This type of plutonium has a half-life of 27,000 years.

Francisco Casteyon a nuclear physicist from Ciemat said 'We're in a race against time & the longer it goes on the more dangerous it will be to walk through the village' 

Roly2, glad you think the name is interesting, it was formed to help others who'd been scammed in Spain years ago and worked very well for and on behalf of quite a lot of distressed folk. Aimed mainly at those agents/developers/in-house lawyers who were ripping people off then, many of whom went bust or did a runner to ply their well honed Spanish scams on a new group of buyers trying the latest Hot Spots in Turkey, Thailand, Cape Verde, Cyprus etc.

Your lead to Sellafield got me researching, not dissimilar timescale 1957 to Palomares 1966. 

I looked up properties for sale in Sellafield and had to smile at two things I discovered:

1. 'Welcome to Sellafield the last bastion of affordable housing' Guardian 31/08/14, I wonder why?

2. Having then looked for properties for sale in Sellafield all the property portals say 'no properties were found matching your criteria' I wonder why?

So, Micky is correct to say 'plutonium emerges and bites them back' which is corroborated by my previous post with quotes from experts in their field.