40,000 signatures collected for Palomares nuclear fall-out clean-up

Hey Mickeyfinn - I promise, I did not take it personally.  Honestly, I don't do that.    But I just don't buy into all of these conspiracy theories, and where building OR the environment is concerned, there are always vested interests.  scambuster, your concern in Spain is about a much wider area than that contaminated, though you are not looking at this in the UK?   There are very well populated villages around the nuclear instalation.   And the people don't glow in the dark there either!!     

you lost me there Roly2 'though you are not looking at this in the UK?'

But no properties for sale it appears in Sellafield? Lol

Sellafield is basically a nuclear installation.   There are villages within 3 miles, which are  well populated, houses are bought and sold, and the people do not glow in the dark.   And tell your story about cheapest houses in England to the people of Seascale (of which you could argue Sellafield is a part), where there are a lot of very good houses, and the average price is over £200000.  Then move the scenario to Spain.  There ARE NO PROPERTIES on the site of the accident.   There are however plenty of developments around it.   Property is bought and sold.   No one glows in the dark.   It's very simple. 

By the way, scambuster, I love the 'experts in their fields' idea.   If only all the experts in all the fields, could just agree with each other - it would be an important point.

I'm getting worried about you Roly2, you keep labouring the point that 'people don't glow in the dark' which is not one of my comments, how bright are the glow worms there, and do you have a halo you don't know of? Lol I read that local farmers are worried that their tomatoes have to be labelled as if not from the area.  As for 'experts in their field' well frankly I'd rather trust them than residents from the surrounding areas.

Capital letters, hmm, sounds somewhat angry to make a point DON'T YOU KNOW!

Capital letters for emphasis, scambuster.  Basic netiquette stops me from  using capital letters for a full post, because that denotes aggression. 

Well, let's look at your 'sources'.   The Guardian.   If you read the article you reference, you will see that they are actually talking about affordable housing across England.   They single out Copeland as having affordable housing, and they conclude that this is because of its location being isolated and NOT (emphasis again) due to the proximity of the nuclear instalment.  In fact, Copeland is further away than a lot of (like it or not) very desirable areas, where property prices average around £220000 (check the land registry, or Zoopla).

Now, one of the basic principles of litigation is the use of expert witnesses.    You have to be sure you pick a credible one (note, not honest, or RIGHT) because you can be certain your opponent will have the best they can find.  Both sides will produce a yawningly long list of research references and statistics, but at the end of the day, they can either both be right, both be wrong or a mixture of the two.   It becomes a balance of probability.  

The reason I was interested in your name, is simply that the problem with the litigatious world we live in, is that often, the so called scam busters become part of the scam.   So for example, PPI.   I have no doubt that there was misselling but some of these scam busters (let's call them) simply need someone without scruples to SWEAR that they were missold PPI.  No evidence, nothing.   At least part of my working week is taken up with picking up the pieces after such scam busters have led people to believe they can get masses of compensation, when in fact there has been no loss suffered.     I remain unconvinced that either there are dangerous levels of contamination in the developments or villages around Palomares, or that there will be any compensation due.  It concerns me that people are so quick to jump onto (a very old) bandwagon.

Don't ever worry about me,  scambuster - I do ok.    

Not sure why you introduced the subject of compensation Roly. In the Palomares case that is not and has never been an issue. Spain has already received a great deal of money from the US. The argument here is the need for a cleanup of the contamination before the risks increase and who is going to pay. 

Experts have written there is a higher degree of risk removing the plutonium than leaving it where it is. On the other hand as scambuster has correctly said other experts predict it will decay into americium causing potentially catastrophic problems.

What is your position? Do you support the petition and the developer’s position and agree a cleanup is necessary or the au contraire. In fact the real question here is the cost. Yet potentially the cost in human terms is likely to be considerable if as some have predicted the plutonium decays in years to come.

For me it’s self-evidently necessary to totally remove the contaminated earth and bury in in a deep hole in the Nevada desert from whence it originated. There should not even be a debate over cost. The US caused it the US should pay. It should not have taken almost fifty years to bring this about. The cold war was to blame. The Spanish were major allies of the US and neither side  wanted  to upset the strategic balance.. The Spanish also milked America for millions and whilst that was going on they preferred to continue sucking up US Dollars for as long as possible.

This entire issue is a nation scandal but because it’s an old one few really care.

Well, I did not bring up the idea of compensation - that would be scambuster who said something like:  I see liturgation coming....   though I have not checked the exact wording.   Yes, I would support continuing clean up.  But in the same way I support on going clean up of any kind of mess.   If it is a national scandal (which nation?), then in the great scale of things - it is a very small one. 

.Perhaps you should try to imagine what would happen today if something similar happened in say Surrey. The US then leaves behind plutonimum pollution for 50 years.

Would it really happen? Of course not. So this is the reason I say it's a national Spanish scandal. It happened at a different time but the problem is a very modern one.

No I don't worry about you Roly2, not sure why you're on about a group known as Scam Busters when my tag is simply Scambuster to help people, again you lost me there, you went off-piste I think!

I could understand your concerns in suppressing this story if it affected you in any way, for example where your property might be, say within 10 miles or so?

You do know I suppose, that local farmers/producers are angered by their produce like Palomares' fine tasting raf tomatoes which had to be sold under false labels, these locals want a final clean-up. Have to agree with Micky again that this would not be the case if it were in Surrey.

You rascal Roly2 I see you had quite a spat with Floella who ticked you off for your rudeness about polytunnels where do they begin and end. Roly2 assuming you are not always right as that debate indicated, I have to say again that I would rather trust experts and the locals who want the final clean-up rather than your view on it, so we beg to differ.

I am not talking about, not do I know of a group known as scam busters.   I was using it as a generic term.  I have no interest in surpressing the story.   I just don't see what is new, or to give cause for jumping up and down.   I have already said that I would support a general clean up, but I am not going to be signing any petitions about it - nor have I been asked to do so, in spite of being in or around the area.   It is well documented over the years on here that I am a huge fan of Villaricos, which is very close to the site.   I have no worries about visiting, swimming in the sea, or buying local produce.    And I cannot remember a time here or in the UK when farmers are not complaining about something.

A national scandal is one that involves a nation.   This is a local disruption, with a bit of international intrigue thrown in.  

And scambuster - I did not lose that debate.   The border of Almeria and Murcia is very evident when you drive down - well marked by the sign, and the end of the polytunnels!!!!    But I admit, I forgot to take the photos to demonstrate it.  I will do next month when I am back in the UK.      

I read that certain dignitaries swam at the time in the sea at Mojacar which is some 9 miles I believe. 

If locals are still worried then so should Spain and the US be, and, clean it up pdq before the so called 'small problem becomes a much bigger problem' as stated earlier. Roly, why wouldn't you want to sign the petition to support the locals, I would? Sorry but I do not agree it is just a local disruption.

Your complacency Roly does reflect the local mood. It’s very frustrating for activists who are trying very hard to get this subject taken seriously.

In nuclear pollution terms the passage of fifty years represents the blink of an eye. In human memory and concern it becomes almost an irrelevance. Subsequent generations largely ignore it until problems manifest into their own times.

How many other sites polluted with plutonium around the world are ignored? Three Mile Island, Chernobyl. I agree the scale of these is somewhat larger but the actual legacy is the same.

I see little point in continuing this thread since the apathy this subject creates exists plainly on this forum judging by the number of contributions. This may well reflect the opinions of the larger community in Almeria.

However belief in a cause has always been a lonely furrow to plough. Giving up never an option.

I agree that there are very few of us interested in this topic, so as a forum thread it has probably run its course.   I have not seen the petition, and I am assuming it is an on line one.   Such things are very rarely for the benefit of local people.   It was unfair of me to talk about jumping up and down, because clearly, the majority of visitors to this forum have got it very much in perspective.  Just the two of you jumping up and down.   

hmm - just looked it up.  It is an on line change.org petition.   40000 signatures really is not a lot. And most of them, as I have already stated, will not be from local people, or even people who could point Palomares  out on a map. 

Not forgetting you jumping up and down Roly but then a development behind Mojacar is not far from Palomares is it?

What utter nonsense to say 'such things are rarely for the benefit of local people' when you can nip back to the UK and the locals can't, don't try and convince us by saying '40,000 signatures really is not a lot', maybe not to you who doesn't give a jot it seems! You go tell that to those locals who are concerned.

Even if the topic is ending, it will bound to be on the agenda again sometime soon and will no doubt debate again

Poly tunnels !!! What did a lively debate between Roly and I had to do with an incident in Palomares in 1966???

If you are going to remonstrate with posters who go off topic scambuster, then you really should abide by your rules...tut tut.....

Anyway back on topic.

Don't think anyone cannot but admire the passion you and Mickey Finn have for this subject but surely your objectives would be more easily solved if you contacted people who really could help your cause rather than continuing to debate the point on this forum.

According to all the press articles I have read, which I trust are a trifle more honest than the included photos,  between 1600 and 2000 people...mostly expats apparently...live or have holiday homes in Palomares yet there are over 40,000 signatories via an online, impersonal, petition. I have a rule NEVER to sign anything unless I know and believe the presented facts ,which in this case leaves me unconvinced,  regardless of whether or not I am personally affected.  

Quote Roly "The border of Almeria and Murcia is very evident when you drive down - well marked by the sign, and the end of the polytunnels!!!!    But I admit, I forgot to take the photos to demonstrate it.  I will do next month when I am back in the UK.   " unquote.

 I shall expect you to keep this promise Roly2 , otherwise I might throw ALL my toys out of the pram 

I'm new here however,is that all you have to do. You post to pontificate , look at me i'm right, really who cares. I was really under the impression this site was about helping people, not about promoting me !!!!. 

I suggest you you take comments elsewhere, and leave this site as it's meant to be, help and assistance for other people, and not for your gratification.

One really disappointed new member

I am not sure who that last post by Clarion is addressed to but a public forum is about free speech and debate. In this particular one all sunjects related to Spain. If this thread does not interest you don't read it. You are free to ignore whatever you wish.

This is a translated extract from the petition appeal begun by Jose Ignacio Dominguez on www.change.org 

In Zone 0 the accident was partially cleaned, although governments involved then told the public that everything had been decontaminated. The reality is that they just collected a quarter of the contaminated soil, which was transported to the US and formed only 3% of the total. The remaining plutonium was buried in at least two graves.

Over time, much of buried radioactive particles were dispersed by winds, torrential rains or human activity. Palomares thus became one of the few living opportunities for study and impact of these substances on people and the environment laboratories. The plan was called in code "Indalo Project" and was done without stating that they were adequately informed human beings affected.

According to the Nuclear Safety Council, remain to collect half a kilo of plutonium and americium 120 grams. Two extremely radioactive elements concentrated in 4 fenced plots and restricted to any use, a total of almost 20 hectares. Under the Recovery Plan Palomares, remediation and final cleaning of these areas would be a continuous work of three years.

Today the area has rapidly developed thanks to the industriousness of its people, despite the stigma and bad press of contaminated sites. Unable to show adverse health consequences, but any radiation dose, however small, can produce long-term effects, therefore there is no safe dose.

In a few months will mark 50 years of the accident. During this time, the governments of the United States and Spain could have cleaned up 16 times, but, in a year of tremendous irresponsibility they still have not done anything. With this petition we demand them to stop teasing the citizenship and decontaminated once and for all Palomares.  

At 1.56 am probably clarion doesn't know either!!!  Lol

Quote from Olive Press "The impact caused two bombs to split and disseminate radioactive matter over a square mile of Palomares"

Totally tragic, I think everyone must agree. However, what I dont understand is that it is Desert Springs CC ,  and those advertising properties therein,  that seem to be of more concern as both a Brian and Mike have made a point of highlighting this on Mar 2  via comments on the petition site.  Why ? 

As is typical in Spain one hand is complaining about a problem whilst the other is collecting revenue by permitting building on presumably contaminated area and Palomares is cushioned now by vast areas of new builds from Villaricos to Vera Playa but the constantly fore mentioned resort isn't in that particular area. 

Sorry,  but it is making me very curious.