Community concerns

For some considerable time there has been much discussion, both on forums and live with regard to the situation with debtors on all communities, not only at Roda but right across the Costas.
Many owners have complained about allowing bad debtors access to facilities such as pools etc. but we have been told under Spanish Law, there is nothing that can be done to deny facility access even to bad debtors or their tenants, it actually seems under Spanish Law that very little can be done to enforce any of the Bye Laws we are governed by, but that is another subject.
There have also been many complaints of outsiders arriving at Roda, using the pools then driving off home, especially during the busy August holiday season.

It now seems as if the Polaris World resort at La Torre have started issuing arm bands to owners and tenants to be worn at all times to prove they are allowed to use the pool and other facilities. They have also issued owners with resident car parking permits ensuring visiting cars do do not take up parking spaces.

These armbands and permits are issued by the administrator ONLY to those who have paid their community charges up to date, in the first few weeks La Torre allegedly took in over 400,000 euros of unpaid debts.

Should non payers be upset about this I am sure they will be able to go through the lengthy Spanish legal system and claim against the community if they can be bothered.

Solutions which may not appeal to all owners and indeed discussions on other community forums have been varied and quite diverse.

Housing have suggested that a similar proposal could be put forward at various Roda AGMs next year should there be support.

It would be interesting to know what others feel about this idea and whether they would support or oppose such a proposal.

I think people who dont pay community fees should be named on a list and posted outside each block so that we can see where the short fall of funds lie, whether it is people who are using the facilities or those who are never there, or who have properties for sale.

It is not a bad idea to identify those who have paid with either wrist bands or in some way property identification. When we pay our golf fees we are given a bag tag to say so, therefore owners could have one for  community fees paid on their property.

Hi Bea2,

The list that you speak about is readily available from the administrators (H.C.) and is included in the minutes that you will have received from them (H.C.) after your AGM. 

If you don't have a copy, they will readily re-send one for you. The debtors lists of varios communities make frightening reading to say the least.

Under the horizontal laws that govern communities of apartments and town houses, (villas are slightly different) community members are duty bound to pay, even if they consider they have just cause not to pay. Therefore, whether the debtors are property owners who use the properties, rent them out, or are for sale is irrelevent. There is a very good book called "You and the Law in Spain'' which can be heavy reading at times, but is packed with very useful information. The English bookstore in Dos mares stocks it.

I would like to point out that this is not just a problem of Roda Golf, but communities in general.

The main reason for this is a lot of property owners do not understand the way the communities work and most people are only too happy to sit back and assume that 'others' will take care of it, only to then complain that things have not been done the way they would like them to be.

Having been on committies (in Spain) before, I can assure you it is a thankless task, and the committee team members of all the communities should be given a massive amount of support to achieve their year long voluntary positions.

Please also remember that when one changes ones e-mail/contact details, that the administrators need to be informed, as this is vital for the communication chain to be kept intact.

I think the idea that H_M has suggested sounds very interesting, but it will only work if property members attend the AGM or EGM for their community, or send a proxy vote in their place.

Roda Golf has the potential to be everything that it was ever sold to be, the number one golfing resort in Europe, but it can only be that with the full support of all it's property owners.

I have a friend on la torre he said giving out the wrist bands was the best thing they have done. It is now basically impossible to rent your appartment unless you are upto date with your fees as your guests will be asked to leave the pool it has also stoped any one from outside the resort just turning up for a day out around the pool.

It will also mean all the agents who rent property on roda would only deal with people who have paid comunity fees or risk have loads of very unhappy guests.

The good news is if it is proposed at the agm the only people who can vote are those who have paid community fees so the non payers will have no say.

We have always paid our community fees up to date.  However, we have not paid the latest instalment due to problems we had at he end of June this year.

For those of you who are not aware, I will try to make it very concise.  Basically, the tenant above us has been behaving antisocially.  He allows his dog to urinate from his balcony onto our terrace below.  On one occasion the dog urinated on my daughters head whilst she was having lunch.  My husband tried to make him aware and he assaulted my husband in front of my children and me.  I was pushed to the ground whilst trying to pull him off my husband and my husband sustained a black eye and several stitches.  It was very frightening to all of us especially the children who had never witnessed this type of behaviour.  

This situation was on going from April, and we were doing everything the administrator told us.  The owner of the property has not been paying community fees.  The tenant uses the facilities and abuses the residents.  In fact the other night, my Spanish neighbour went to leave out his rubbish and was almost knocked down by a visitor/another tenant from the same apartment.  When he tried to address the situation, the person told him "next time he would hit him until he killed him".  Is this the behaviour we have to tolerate?

The administrator is aware of this awful situation.  She tells me she is still waiting on the owner to give her the tenants name?  She is obviously a very patient lady or is happy for the owner/tenant to mess her around.  We are still waiting for an EGM to be called although we don't know how much good this would do.  

We now have had to pay a lawyer to help us through this situation which will probably be very lengthy.  This is the reason we are reluctant to pay our latest bill.  Owners are renting irresponsibly to tenants to disregard all the rules, invite their friends around to use facilities, use 2 or 3 parking spaces and take part in antisocial behaviour.

I am always happy to hear others thoughts on the matter whether or not you agree/disagree with my views.  Sorry it did turn out to be pretty lengthy but I could write a book!!

kroda   

Hi  Kroda ,

Good evening,

If that was happening to me and my family  i would not pay either, One has to make a stand, its  no good others saying                 "well pay and we will sought it out later " unless we make a united front this sought of situation will only get worse

The presidents of all the Phases need to bring this to the attention of Roda and the letting Agents

The Administrator"s have no interest to rock the boat they want to get ( and I believe thay have it ) Corvera so why should they want to bother ?

The amount of monies we all pay for a lack of a  "complete 5 star Resort "  they should be working for us, we pay the community fee"s lets see them work for their money , I understand this happened 2/3 months ago ?

NOT GOOD ENOUGH , next time it could be your Family that suffers !!!!

If you want Roda to stay a Resort we can all be proud of we need some action but it takes all of us to help

Sorry  to hear of your terrible problem Kroda , if you need any help please PM me and  i will see what help I can do

Take care

This is exactly why we should introduce arm bands or a similar facility. If as you say the owner of the property has not paid his/her fees then the tenants who rent the property would be asked to leave the pool and other areas. Remeber we also pay for the security so I am sure they could be asked to help enforce the rules. I am sure it wont be long before your neighbour moves on. 

Kroda I do think it is a poor show that you have not been able to have this person removed from Roda. I hope your comunity take some action soon.

Arm bands in the summer may work, but in the off season renters won’t care as not many people use the pools after October. Also if it is the law that these horrible people can use the facilities whether they pay or not then surely they can stay around a pool arm band or not!!!

We were supposed to have an EGM to sort out the problem of irresponsible renters and unsociable tenants and it just never materialized.  I am going to write (again) to our administrators to see what is happening and so should everyone else.

My wife Linda looks after Kim’s apartment and whenever we go there, there is dog pee on the patio that has to be bleached away; it is disgusting and the people upstairs just do not care. 

Also, Kim What are the police doing about the assault?

The arm bands sound like a good solution to the use of pools etc but as Mike says not a great solution for the rest of the year when pools are not in use but a very positive step none the less as a lot of the non-payers are people who are letting their apartments both long and short term. 

The armband scheme could however be extended to use of the sports facilities, golf driving range and clubhouse which might provide more leverage as If the non payers cannot allow their renters to use the pools and facilities their properties might just prove to be unrentable and they would have to pay up. 

Whilst I sympathise with Kroda's terrible experience and would support getting her neighbour thrown off the resort,  the witholding of the community fees unfortunately only hurts the neighbours who are paying their fees as the fees are used by the administrators to pay for the essentials such as, the rubbish collection, the lighting, lifts, gardening, cleaning of pools and general upkeep of Phase 1 etc etc. As a form of protest witholding of fees only hurts the other people on the resort who are paying and not the people you intend to protest against. I am not sure what any of us have at our disposal to protest against anything we are not happy about except to attend the AGM and make our feelings known and rallying support from our neighbours.  

Surely if this matter is proceeding through the courts Kroda's solicitor can provide the name of the tenant to the administrator or the police who served the denuncia on him must have the full name of the renter.   

I would like to see unsociable behaviour stamped out as much as the next person but the best way to do it is through the landlord who should throw this person out as has been done in another block in Phase 1 as it is the only way to get the problem removed permanently.

Lorraine

As I understand things, each individual community runs independently of the other. If the current Administrator are not doing what they are supposed to, why not have an EGM and sack them? Would that decision be up to each community, or Roda themselves? I assume the Administrator runs as a commercial venture - if so then I am sure there would be other Administrators willing to take on the Roda 'contract' , or at least the contract for those communities not satisfied with Marisol etc. The horrendous situation that Kroda and family find themselves in could perhaps be used as a test for any new Administrator - ie. " if you can assist properly with issues such as highly undesirable tenants, then you can be our new Administrator" type of thing. 

With all due respect to you Lorraine, the landlord doesn't care!  This situation has been ongoing since April.  The administrator has been in contact with the owner on several occasions but again nothing has happened.  Some people don't care, as long as the rent is paying their mortgage. I thought by withholding our fees, that something would be done.  Why should we have to pay legal costs to have this tenant evicted and in Spain it takes an awfully long time!  It seems that the administrator is happy to take the long route in dealing with this problem.  I feel if the community (administrator) made a stand i.e. test case then this would be a deterrant in the future.

The first piece of good advice!!

I am sorry I was in the middle of typing my piece when you were sending yours.

We have asked for an EGM at the end of June but still no news.

On the topic of a new administrator, I don't think it will happen.  Unfortunately there are lots of people who vote Marisol in every year.  These people are just happy to let her get on with it.  They don't have problems.  There are a lot of people who do want a new administrator but are overruled.  A lot of the properties are owned by companies, including the one above me, although I don't think they can vote as they don't pay their fees.

I think there is "a lot of you scratch my back etc" going on.

My Spanish neighbour caught someone urinating on the stairs to the garage a few days ago.  All these items are reported but nothing is done about it.

Kim,

You may already have done this, but if you were to canvas your individual community for support, then assuming the support is in your favour, propose that your committee office bearers then look for alternatives to Marisol. I can't really see most reasonable people not supporting you. Makes my own blood boil when I read your posts!!

Alistair

Hi I am on phase II town house and have reported to comunity the lack of flowers in the beds (none!!)

I was firstly told it was the plague then a change of managment for the planting then it was to hot in the summer to plant. It is now 5 months later and the gardens look terrible has anyone else been complaining to the comunity for this. Who is phase II andosa 5 president anyone know??

I know this is only a small issue compared to most but when you buy a 5 star resort you dont expect to be surrounded by dead grass and mud borders!!

Hevs

Your President's name and contact details will have been on the minutes of your AGM held in March when gardening contracts among others are decided.

There have been a number of complaints that the original planting by Roda was not suitable for certain areas but they now do not want to know as it is purely a matter for the owners and their respective community.

Re dead grass, you do realise they have had no rain in Roda since May until last week, we have trouble in SE UK with dead grass, it will come back.

Matters such as these can only be answered by the Administrator and/or President

This thread was originally to try and gauge support or opposition for various matters that may go some way to helping some, certainly not all of the general problems that exist at Roda.

We have all seen that all over Spain and probably elsewhere, community bye laws are almost impossible to enforce, but that is how they are set up, like it or not we all bought there.

It remains now up to all owners to get together with their communities and introduce measures that are permitted to try and resolve some of these problems.

Positive ideas welcome.

No, the introduction of armbands around pools and perhaps car parking permits will NOT solve incidents of antisocial behaviour such as suffered by kroda and family, but regrettably bad neighbours are rife these days and Spain is no exception especailly if landlords are unwilling to work with the community. Perhaps the introduction of some measures may persuade dodgy landlords to change their views.

At present Spanish Law does not allow any community to ban use of facilities or apartments even if fees are not paid. The community cannot control who rents and who doesn't but perhaps we can take away some benefits.

Read the General Forums and every single community has problems, but then again, how many of us did much research to check this out before buying?

This is something which all communities may also consider, I have sent this to Marisol but am still awaiting a response as the whether this is workable at Roda.

Here is an interesting idea both from the point of view of recovering bad debts and perhaps also enforcing community rules. Taken from the Blog of a Spanish solicitor who regularly contributes on EOS.

..........................................................................................................................................................................
...
Legal tip 125. Community problems solved in 25 days
18 August 2009 @ 10:25

Nearly 188,000 communities of owners in Spain, equivalent to 15% of the total, have one or more payment defaulters, and the number of arrears continues to grow due to the current economic climate.

A speedy, efficient and economical solution to this problem is the submission of disputes in a community of owners to Arbitration. This submission to arbitration needs to be approved by majority of the owners. The arbitration can be among the owners themselves or between them and the Community.

 

The conflicts that can be resolved by arbitration can be of any kind:

 

- Non-payment of quotas.

- Conflicts regarding common areas.

- Breach of the rules of the Community ...





The decision is in place in 25 days, and therefore the time saving is of 6 months at least, if we compare this with a judicial procedure. This arbitration possibility is regulated by the Arbitration Act 60/2003.

 

Every owner just need to make a single payment of around 9 € and this cover arbitration, as well as a Procurator of Tribunals and a solicitor in the event that the award requires enforcement.

Hi hugh man

This sounds like a very good idea, I for one would be willing to pay this very small amount.  We are all paying a lot at the moment for very little return.  As for telling Marisol about the idea, I do not like being a merchant of doom and gloom but it will probably fall on deaf ears.  I feel that there is very little being done by the administrator.  I once said, in a previous thread, "good work if you can get it".  I have lost all faith in some one who doesn't correspond and doesn't even have the decency to find out the name of a tenant from a landlord.  As I said earlier, we are still waiting for an EGM since end of June!!  I don't think I would be even bothered attending one now.  It would probably be a waste of community fees.

A great point H_M,

But I think you are some how, from reading the replies to your posts, going to struggle to get everyone to agree, in that a big majority of people really don't understand how a community works..........

It's clear that a lot of people have points to raise, (and that some don't focus on the points raised in individual threads)  but the fundamental issues are that even when they have a point to make, they either don't know how to do it, or don't understand what the communities/administrators responsibilities are towards individual problems.

I made a note in a post below about buying a copy of "You and the Law in Spain". It's very hard reading, but worth it to be able to gain an insight into the way things work, especially the horizontal law that governs the biggest percentage of properties in R.G.

Without quoting examples of issues highlighted within this thread, there is absolutly no reason for owners to with-hold community payments for their own personal issues, no matter how awful they may be. These unfortunately need to be raised at AGM, or at EGM if they are are deemed important enough (to the community) or the required amount of owners request such an occasion.

I'm also not sure about most owners understanding of the function of the administrators, in that they work 'for' the community in an advisory capacity, giving knowledge about what can and can't be done and ensuring that what is then proposed at AGM or EGM is carried out.

I think it would be a great exercise for all property owners to attend their respective AGM to get an insight into what is after all their destiny and in their own best interests, as a well run community can add considerable value to ones property.

It should also be noted that whilst R.G. are the promoter of the resort, they are not now responsible for the day to day running of the communities, unless of course you take into consideration that they still "own" a large number of properties within the various communities and therefore have a proxy vote to make decisions in the AGM /EGM. Certain areas are their responsibility to oversee and a better liaision with them for these areas would clearly be benificial to all, but that is not for this thread

There is a whole host of debatable aspects to this very aptly named thread and hopefully as a consequence, property owners will be encouraged to get involved and make a difference to the whole of the resort.

The presidents and vice presidents of all the communities are there to help and assist the smooth running and liaison with the administrators, but they can't be expected to do it one their own and need the FULL support of all the community members.

A very healthy thread...............

100% agreement with you comments paul. In fact a look at the Horizontal Laws Act available at

www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/horizontal-laws.pdf

may give owners a more balanced view of how communities are set up, that is if they don't send you to sleep.

One of the big problems in Spain is that even if you do understand the law and your rights, it still seems difficult to enforce a number of the laws utilised in setting up a community.

Owners are the community and as you rightly say need to take whatever responsibility they are able to, to ensure things run as smoothly as possible.

As an example, all owners in Phase 1 and 2 apartments were informed via the minutes of a Roda Owners Only Forum where views and opinions could be discussed away from prying eyes and where perhaps more owners could get together to discuss similar interests or even share rental information etc.

Regretably owners in Phase 3 and townhouses have not yet been given this information as it would appear minutes are the only way to keep owners in touch.

So far only about 20 owners have visited the site, suggests to me that very few seem to either care about what happens let alone want to get involved.

Far too many seem to suggest things need doing or changing but seem to forget who exactly is going to do it. The Presidents and  VP s work tirelessly onsite for no reward and little thanks but cannot do it all.

I exclude kroda from this view as that issue was criminal and should be dealt with by the police and courts as well as expecting the administrator to take whatever measures are necessary. Unfortunately under the Spanish Legal system it seems the landlord cannot be forced to give details of tenants to the community administrator who needs them to take action.

A Catch 22 situation if ever there was one. Not sure that an EGM could do anything to change this.

If there is a view that the administrator does not do a good job, then someone has to find an alternative and enlist enough support to affect a change, who exactly has the time or knowledge to undertake that task?

What we all have to understand is that we bought property in a country whose reputation with regard to propery law is almost non existent. Where there are numerous allegations of dodgy practice and even corruption.

What we tend to think of reasonable practice and behaviour does not necessarily follow in Spain, I have said this before but a quick search on the General Forums will find reports of police being called to affrays at AGMs and all sorts of problems at developments and communities up and down the Costas.

We all believed we were buying into a 5 star resort, well how many salesmen, do you know that will tell you anything different, we have to accept that things were not as sold and that a massive global recession has now left over 1.5 million unsold properties in Spain with many never going to be complete, even more of a disaster for many buyers.

You are correct Roda has a potential to be all that we hoped but only if each and every owner gets themselves involved in some form or other.

As a further example the UGR development at La Tercia has  their second annual BBQ and live music event organised by owners this weekend and they have sold 200 tickets mostly to owners and guests. They have their problems up there but have found a way to enjoy what they have.

This starts by getting more invloved and more positive in online forums and either attending or voting at AGMs