When did it all go wrong for some

yes, why not indeed sign the petition for abused mothers and children?, who could be so cruel as not to?.  If we are informed and recognise the wrongs and are presented by something positive to try and change it then great.  Some things are not acceptable anywhere, and you have rightly named yet another one in Spain!  You could talk about this human abuse or for that matter animal abuse, legal abuse etc in Spain?,...... how long have you got?

As for for Eqitable Life, well if that's true then there should be uproar about it, and  I think most would sign a petition to bring justice to the robbing bas***s. I would guess something will be done about it and let's hope somebody doesn't try and defend it, or just try to justify it by comparisons to wrongs in another country eh?.

 Georgia - thank you.  I have mentioned Equitable Life before (as someone who lost out, though not substantially), but noone seemed interested.  Also ads - yes of course the banks and terrible decisions re lending are at the heart of a lot of this -  having started in the USA, but again I would just point out that like the builders, the banks responded to the frantic land grab that seemed to promise riches.  However, I really would like to say well done to everyone as well (I think it was Rob who mentioned this first), apart from one or two odd postings, everyone has been very reasonable and polite.  As I said earlier we need to agree to disagree, but I would so like to see a situation where positive postings are not immediately shouted down by negative ones.  It is clear that it still has not all gone wrong for a lot of people (yet), but of course we should all be worried about the financial state of Spain and other European countries.  Interesting times!!

ads

yes, that's a move in the direction by Jose, but not much mention of action for those robbed by the banks?.

Bri

indeed interesting times, and how long have we thought the USA was sort of ok?,  now it looks like they have credited themselves up to the limit!  

 I am not sure we have thought the USA was ok have we??  The level of toxic debt is mind boggling, and the housing crash there makes Spain look stable!!!

I agree, that's what I meant by 'sort of ' ok.  Certainly be interesting to see what they try and do about it in the next year or two, as it will the countries most at risk in Europe. How much 'head in the sand'?

Very good, Georgia.   Excellent post.  And I will sign that petition for you if you put up the link for me.  Zero tolerance for abuse of children and their mothers.

You say:

"I  think they (the abused) would swap your predicament for theirs ina heartbeat,and the next time you ask if we have all signed your petition,ask yourselves,have you signed theirs? and if not, then why?"

And just to make it clear that abuse of children and mothers is, unfortunately, more widespread that one would think, in other countries as well.  NOT just in Spain (the land of all evil!!).  "Yet another one in Spain", quoth Goodstitch. 

Patricia

so what happened to not personal Pat?.

Come on, let's keep it friendly, and I agree it's widesspread, just worse in some parts of Europe.

Dear All

"When did it all go wrong for some"

is the title of the thread - the answer is when you trusted the Spanish lawyers even if they employed young english solicitors. when you believed the brochure publicity and sat through the sales pitch in your trusted lawyer's company and subsequently handed over monies only to him, to be held safe in his client account.

so what is the debate about?????????????

is it a doubt about this process???????

is it a question of the numbers involved and thus the extent of the problem???????

what exactly is there to "agree to diaagree about"????????????????

everyone I hope condemns crime of all sorts, surely that must be taken as read.

I do indeed think that I am lucky to have escaped without physical and sexual abuse by the criminals involved.

I even believe that I am lucky not to be paying a Spanish mortgage

I of course condemn all abuse and corruption.

But remain puzzled as to why "happies" in Spain cannot just be happy and enjoy their good fortune.

If they weren't affected and all is well for them, three cheers - good luck to them.

Why must they infest this forum with their abuse of the "victims"????????

Did they watch the Priors demolition and cheer?????????

What is the excuse for such sadism??????????

Regards

Norman

I suspect, Norman, that most of the 'happies' as you refer to the satisfied and content ex-pats, are doing exactly as you say in terms of enjoying their lives and good fortune.... I wish them all the very best of good luck and happiness (and, incidentally, I wish I was living permanently in my place in Spain too). In fact, there will be plenty of people who are having so much fun with their lives in Spain that they have far better things to do with their time than get embroiled in heated discussions on EOS!!!

Not sure what the 'abuse of the victims' statement refers to, Norman??? Why would anyone 'watch the Priors demolition and cheer'? And your final statement of 'what is the excuse for such sadism?' is beyond belief.

You are making some very broad statements here, Norman, which are not based on an iota of evidence from the posts that have been made on this thread .....

Oh for goodness sake Campana give it a rest. You talk about other people being bullies and stalkers with a hypocrisy that is breathtaking. Have you really nothing better to do than trawl thorugh EOS and drag up comments from April 2010? This adds no value to the thread whatsoever.

Hi all

....now where's that truce flag we spoke of?

I think the thread title is getting a bit lost again!   Listening to all the different comments from those for whom it did go wrong, it's clear that all we wanted was a fair deal from those in positions of legal trust in Spain. We did our homework and played by the rules as is the norm' in several Euro countries that we have close links with, and just expected the same in return.  Once lies, corruption, deception etc, come in to an equation then those just trying to do things right don't stand a chance, so the bad guys win. So are we asking to much for support in the call for change from all decent people?.

 The problem though Goodstich, is that those of us who are happy in Spain and have not encountered the corruption some have (though we have all had first hand experience I am sure of the greed which was raging in Spain and the USA  - and presumably other countries), feel as though we are not allowed to say anything positive without having the wrath of the gods descend on us.  Whenever a thread starts here which is about good news or just  a general query, the negative comments pour in.  It is as though we are not allowed to enjoy the country any more.  And you know what?  I know a LOT of expats who have settled in Spain, and they have a blatant disregard to paying Spanish taxes or registering cars etc etc.  How much money is Spain missing out and owned?  Perhaps some of that could go to improving the situation in other areas.   The reality is, that just like in the UK, the regulations tend to come in after the catastrophe - and unfortunately, there are other huge issues which need to be addressed (like 40% youth unemployment) at the moment.    A recognition sometimes that things are improving in terms of regulation and that there are many happy house purchasers in Spain, would go a long way to increase support for your cause.  I am much more swayed by the reasonable tone on this thread than I have been by other threads which have descended into rants. 

Norman is Norman,a very bitter man, he made a mistake as I did and it's left him very very sad. We have lived with our problems and are over them now and living in Spain,in a smaller than intended casa but still very happy to be here.

Bri

I know just what you are saying about you not experiencing the corruption, but that doesn't mean anyone should deny the reality of it or ignore the evidence.  That is why several of those who are happy get criticised.  We not knocking you for being happy with your lot, far from we wish you all the best.  What does make us very angry is when the truth, the facts and the evidence is denied because of a 'rose coloured spectacle'  view of Spain, or the numbers involved cheated, trivialised.

We are all aware of what a fantastic country Spain is in many ways, which of course is why many of us intended to live there at some stage and put our life's saving in to that intention.  That should not blind anyone to the faults that have caused so much misery though, and that goes for any country.

So please spare a thought for those who did nothing wrong but were cheated by the well reported wrongs in the system. Nothing to do with greed or stupidity for the majority of us, just decent people abiding by the laws and just expecting the same from those in positions of legal trust. 

All we ask is support for impletentation of law, justice and compensation when earned.  Those not supporting us are not in support of those clearly in the right and deserve critism for that.   Many of us even have wins in court to support our case but still have nothing to show for it,  but still we are criticised for being bitter and angry about being cheated by the system, and doing everything we can to get justice for us and for those who follow us.

Most helpful if you could specifically QUOTE where "the truth, the facts the evidence has been DENIED" on this thread i.e. which is clearly the guts of your ongoing argument.

I may well have missed something & so your specific "QUOTE" will assist all of us from going around in circles.

Many thanks,

Jon

Jon07

no, I'm not going to start making this personal again. My comment is general to this and many other threads where some people are criticising those doing everything they can to change the system that has cheated so many of us.

Once again, all we ask is recognition and support for change to things that have hurt so many, while wishing those who are happy with their lot,  all the best. 

If we get that then we are pulling in the same direction and hopefully the changes will come soon that will benifit all?.

Bri,

Here's some positive news for the future (see below), but not much consolation for those seeking redress of outstanding issues.

I can’t stress this enough, that the system of justice is the benchmark by which accountability is achieved for all consumers in Spain, and without an effective and consistent system that enforces laws of the land, then everyone, whether happy or not, remains vulnerable.

Only when you find, for whatever reason, that you require this consumer protection will you be aware how lacking the system is at enforcing rulings and how much you are at risk without that level of protection. You shouldn't have to wait for that experience to happen, everyone needs to act now and support the petitions. Surely you can see that only by pressure have these changes come about, and how important it is to retain pressure on the Government for adequate consumer protection in Spain. I think petitioners deserve to be actively supported to the benefit of all in the longer term.

This is courtesy of Keith:

Some positive changes FOR THE FUTURE in LEY 8/2011 dated 1 July 2011.  The complete Law runs to 39 pages in Spanish, but the best bits are below.  BUT WHAT ABOUT THE OUTSTANDING ISSUES OF THE PAST?

The fact that the Spanish Government are having to bring in new Laws to cover these issues just goes to prove that the system was far from adequate previously.  It is almost an admission of guilt on their part!!

Look at the last item on the short list below.  That is a clear admission that it was previously possible for a developer to register an ILLEGAL property on the Land Registry!!

The measures announced in the 7 July decree include:

• Allowing properties which are ‘fuera de ordenación’ to be registered on the Land Registry.  The decree says this will protect owners who in many cases bought in good faith, while retaining the ‘fuera de ordenación’ status and the limitations this implies.
• Ensuring that essential information regarding the legality of the property is incorporated into the Land Registry. This means that when purchasers request a ‘nota simple’ from the Land Registry, they will be able to see whether there are or have been any legal proceedings against the property, such as proceedings which may result in fines or demolition. It will now be obligatory for town halls to provide registrars with this information. If town halls fail to provide this information, they will be held responsible for economic damages affecting third parties who bought in good faith.
• Confirming that it is impossible to acquire rights which contradict land and town planning laws due to administrative silence (this is also included in the Ley estatal de Suelo). This measure clarifies that a licence cannot be granted due to passivity or inaction by town halls.  Instead, the transformation, construction and use of land requires administrative authorisation and if the timeframe for a response expires without the individual receiving authorisation, the lack of a response will be considered as a negative decision.
• Increasing protection for purchasers who buy off-plan from a developer.  The decree states that it is not possible to register a new property on the Land Registry unless it has a licence of first occupation, a construction licence and a technical certificate which states that the property corresponds to the plans for which the licence was granted.

http://www.bankguaranteesinspain.com/

I am pleased we have established that "the truth, the facts, the evidence has (NOT) been denied" by anyone on this thread i.e. given the inability to substantiate these allegations.

Thats a huge step forward & will assist to focus the discussion.

Cheers,

Jon