When did it all go wrong for some

"There have been many occassions over a long period of time where some people have tried to 'whitewash' the true situation"

If that is the case, I am sure our friend should have absolutely no difficulty producing these specific "QUOTES" from the Forum. That is the best way to establish credibility & avoid previous accusations of mere attention seeking. Also as a new member, it would be extremely helpful from my perspective establishing what the true concrete facts i.e. via specific "QUOTES" not broad brush allegations !

Cheers,

Jon

Dear All,

Long ago retired but even today still called in for "expert" opinion, in fact investigating a current negligence complaint against a chartered surveyor who would not know a "concrete fact" if I threw it at him.

But there gain there is no such thing, even if a judge agrees with you, it is still subject to appeal.

The house of lords makes the last decision on what is "concrete", no matter how stupid and wrong, because no intelligent expert had properly reported to them.

Try looking at our "hedge and ditch" ruling.

Surely there is some minion somewhere who can do his trawling for him.

Regards

Norman

Clearly, people will form their own views based on this "response" !!!!

With all due respect Norman, .... I dont see any 'expert' opinons from you, only broad brushed statements and accusations against anyone who happens to be enjoying their life in Spain.

IMO, the posts written by Goodstich, Ads and others who, like you, have lost money but are offering some helpful and constructive views are far more useful to anyone who is considering purchasing property in Spain. This is the central difference between their approach and yours on threads such as this

 Sorry - can't resist.  Ignore him - he usually goes away after a while.

I'm trying, Bri, but such comments really make me want to >>>>>

Thats what I have already decided.

Honestly, feel a little sad for the guy given his "response" below !!

Cheers,

Jon

Dear All,

the circle goes round with the same silliness.

Yet again, I like Spain and sought to buy there in ignorance of the "system" and it's dangers.

I have none of the language and trusted a spanish speaking english solicitor for the whole transaction including POA.

Because of corruption pure and simple, that is CORRUPTION CORRUPTION CORRUPTION, not the market, definitely not the market, I lost my life's savings.

I am not seeking any sort of sympathy or hand-outs from anyone, indeed I have offered money on here to a sufferer in desperation with children going hungry.

What I know of Spain is from friends who live there, EOS and experts like Maria,Faro, Justin etc. etc.

My "expertise" as clearly stated is in building and construction engineering.

I have not started any legal attempts to regain my funds, offer no advice only seek news and information.

Nether do I offer any advice on purchasing a property in Spain, except perhaps beware the quality of build, the lawyers and the system.

General advice would be be cautious about accepting info from enthusiasts, even ones who appear expert.

I deplore "spinners" those, whether "hungry traders" or not who wish to paper over the cracks actual or not.

If my money was returned in some form I would probably seek to buy again in a similar location.

I enjoy stories of success posted on the correct threads, not the endless spin trivia posted to "restore" the "balance" on the wrong threads.

I accuse no one of enjoying themselves except those that post to annoy and discredit the "victims".

I require no respect unless earned.

Regards

Norman

Spain has never experienced the same boom and bust cycle that Brits are almost accustomed to. In historical terms this is a relatively new democracy and as a result it doesn´t have the legal system or the banking regulations in place to deal with much of what has taken place over the past decade. I think the first thing to remember is that the property bubble wasn´t a fenomenon affecting solely ex-pats. There is a whole generation of Spaniards who are now endebted to banks for the rest of their working lives. Some of the laws seem absurd, for example; a couple who bought a 400,000€ house on a 100% mortgage, both lost their jobs within months of the purchase. The bank repossessed the house, sold it at auction for 200,000€ and the previous owners still have to pay the difference; 200,000€ over 30 years for a house they don´t live in. Court orders ensure the money is deducted at source from any future employment, no more rebates from Hacienda.

Corruption. No-one is going to argue about that. It is rife. From local town halls where mayors award their own building companies construction projects (usually through a shell company owned by a relative), all the way to the very top of the political scale. My experience is that in most cases these politicos don´t even acknowledge that what they are doing is wrong. It is a perk of the job. It will change, people are already asking for more transparency, the "Indignados" were making a lot of valid points. Look at Esperanza Aguirre, President of the comunidad de Madrid. - Her family bought up most of the land in a remote spot called Yebes near Guadalajara, then it was announced that a new high speed AVE train line was going to be built between Madrid and Barcelona. The AVE doesn´t stop in Guadalajara (a sizeable population) it stops in Yebes. Her family made a fortune. (http://es.altermedia.info/general/la-familia-de-esperanza-aguirre-beneficiada-por-el-trazado-del-ave-a-lleida_871.html)

The banking sytem. It´s in its death throes. Unfortunately it is the taxpayer that is going to be saddled with the cost of reform. CAM is just the start, it will collapse like a house of cards. Only the true multinationals (Santander, BBVA) and a few cajas that displayed some restraint in the past will be able to weather the storm. The fact that Zapatero has called an early general election despite PSOE getting whacked in the local and regional elections, signals to me at least, that Spain is months away from asking for EU assistance. Yields on Spanish 10 year bonds (the treasury notes that the government auctions to finance itself) passed the unsustainable 5.7% level weeks ago and are hovering between the 6 and 7% levels that forced Greece, Portugal and Ireland to request a bailout. The problem now is, that banks have swung from one extreme to the other. From throwing money at anyone to lending to no-one. In many respects they are perpetuating their own downfall by ensuring the housing market remains stagnant.

I remember in the early nineties all the newspaper reports about people that had been conned into buying ropey timeshares. I think perhaps the housing boom (especially on the costas) was an extension of that. People are on holiday, having a good time, not a care in the world. For a few hundred euros a month (and with a pound buying 1.50€, low interest rates) the opportunity to own their own little piece of paradise must have seemed a fantastic prospect. Even make a small income from it by renting it out to friends and family. What´s more, it´s bricks and mortar, a solid investment in every sense. But Spain joined the Euro, it couldn´t alter its interest rates to curb ever-increasing property prices. Suddenly, people you wouldn´t trust to tarmac your drive were getting huge advances from reputable cajas to construct properties for an endless queue of holiday-makers eager to realise a dream.

I genuinely, genuinely feel sorry for anyone that has lost a lifetime´s savings in the pursuit of happiness here. I really do. The system here can be so drawn out, so dogged with red tape and so frustrating that all you can do is weep. At the same time I´m happy for anyone that has found their little corner of Spain and are content with their lot.  I´m in the middle. I bought my house at the top of the market 6 years ago (identical house opposite is now on the market for half what we paid for ours), but we´re not planning on going anywhere, both still have our jobs, so for the time being can ride it out. 

That was a bit of ramble, not sure I made a single valid point, apologies.

Thats the sort of relevant impartial post that earns respect !

Well done & thanks,

Jon

Dear All,

could not agree more, well done and thank you it is the forum's lifeblood.

only very slight reservations re. "paradise" - I doubt such a thing truly exists without a measure of self deception.

also in my work I have and still see much insecure "bricks and mortar".

the problem with Spain's finances are indeed coming to a head with current down-grading.

we may even be a "few" perhaps compared with the nationals you describe, whether huge or not it is a problem that needs correction.

The banks must be made responsible for their "valuations".

Though I believe Maria reported progress on this by the courts.

Regards

Norman

 A very comprehensive post Orinoco - with many relevant points and a valid viewpoint.  I enjoyed reading it - and I like your point about the Spanish being caught up in the house madness as well.   We have a generation of young Spaniards who are unlikely to be able to buy property - maybe not so different from here in the UK in that!!  I often think that the Spanish are forgotten about in these forums.   

Dear All,

yes the comparison shows similarity in that the banks here are penalising first time buyers with higher interest rates and lower loans whereas previously they encouraged them.

Regards

Norman

 Orinoco:  "The bank repossessed the house, sold it at auction for 200,000€ and the previous owners still have to pay the difference; 200,000€ over 30 years for a house they don´t live in."

Well, if they do that, they're pretty thick, because they can go to UK, declare it their new place of residence, get work flipping burgers for a few months if need be, file for bankruptcy - and Bob's your uncle - the bank in Spain get told they're not getting a penny more - and  the bankruptcy is wiped clean after a year. It costs about £1100, mostly court fees, and if you're on benefit that can be waived. 

google bankruptcy tourism.

Dear All,

good advice but I am sure Maria reported a court in Spain quashing this nonsense.

Regards

Norman

Yes Guy. Any Spaniard that hasn´t made themselves aware of the bankruptcy laws in every other EU member state must be "pretty thick". I´ve had this conversation before with people that like to give the impression that filing for insovency in the UK is a straight forward, hassle-free process. It´s not. I´m not saying it can´t be done, it can. But unless the family is genuinely relocating there they are likely to be pretty thoroughly investigated. It all comes down to what is considered your "COMI" - Centre Of Main Interests but I´m sure you know that.

Firstly, if it is a joint mortgage both parties will have to file for bankruptcy, which, if they have children, will mean pulling them out of their local Spanish school so they can all relocate to a bedsit in Slough for the duration of the process. The parents finding a job will increase their prospects of a successful petition, which means getting NI numbers, speaking at least a minimal amount of English (even to flip burgers), opening a bank account etc etc. 

They will need a Spanish speaking UK solicitor, or a translator and a solicitor, both of whom will presumably want to get paid. They will need money for flights and money for rent plus a deposit. I´m guessing if our Spanish family had all this money lying about they´d have paid their mortgage. But let´s assume they can stump up the cash, they´ve got their solicitor, the petition has been presented and the bankruptcy order made. Well now the Official Receiver will start his / her investigation. The Official Receiver will investigate where:

The debtor is a foreign national who appears to have been resident in the UK for less than 12 months and;
All the debts disclosed are to creditors outside the UK.

So I think we can safely assume our Spanish family is going to get a good grilling. The Official Receiver will want to see utility bills, credit card statements etc to confirm the COMI. Suddenly it isn´t quite the 4 week holiday that some portray it as. And despite the €1000´s spent the outcome is by no means guaranteed. Add to that the trauma of throwing your children in a state school and you can see why up to now, trusted family solicitors here haven´t been urging their clients to get on the first flight to Stanstead.

Orinoco, give the kids to granny for a year. Mum and dad go to UK and try and find work. I have stayed at a lot of  hotels in London and there's plenty of staff that don't speak a word of English. Why do you need English to flip burgers? If they are European citizens they have an absolute right to go to UK and look for work. People are quick enough on this site to point out that if you intend to live in Spain you must immediately sign on the padron, change you car number plates, etc, ie become a proper little Spaniard. It cuts both ways: the moment they arrive in UK and  say I am going to live here, once they've done their basic paperwork, they become proper little Brits. They are as much UK residents as Brits living in Spain are Spanish residents. And UK bankruptcy law applies to them just as much as, for example,  Spanish inheritance law applies to Brits resident in Spain. 

The UK Govt's insolvency website insolvency.gov.uk helpfully points out that:"The COMI is determined at the date the petition is presented and not where, historically, the relevant activity was carried out . Therefore, the location of creditors and the country in which debts were incurred are not material issues in determining a COMI."

It all depends whether you have the determination. I'd go for it like a shot if I was in the predicament you described, having to practically spend the rest of your working life in servitude. It is to Spain's shame that building developers, lawyers, and suchlike file for bankruptcy at the drop of a hat, but they have no such facility to help their own private citizens. As you pointed out in an earlier post, they don't have much of a legal system in Spain. It has always been this way; the Law has only ever been used as an instrument to support the Monarchy, Government, Church, establishment. I think we all agree that generally speaking Spanish lawyers are useless. So I don't understand how you can say with a straight face "you can see why up to now, trusted family solicitors here haven´t been urging their clients to get on the first flight to Stanstead." As if penniless Spaniards have trusted family solicitors.ROFLMAO. Spain is a great country with a nice climate but a very backward legal system. And the locals are very charming but similarly primitive when it comes to 21st century business practices, which is why they have such a super-efficient bureaucracy and organisations such as Iberdrola, Vodafone, Spanish Banks, etc. "Trusted family solicitors". Very good. I shall go to sleep with a smile on my face. Thank you.

Orinoco's comments below on bankruptcy issues are spot on.

Jon

Guy, this isn´t what the thread is about so I´ll be brief:

"The UK Govt's insolvency website insolvency.gov.uk helpfully points out that:"The COMI is determined at the date the petition is presented and not where, historically, the relevant activity was carried out."

The date, not the place. So arriving in the UK on Monday and filing for bankruptcy by the Friday means your COMI is not going to be the UK simply because you made the petition there. Your COMI is where you historically pay taxes, earn a living, have a bank account...

As I said before, it can be done but it is a long drawn out process. To avoid an investigation you will need to have been resident for 12 months.

"Give the kids to granny for a year." Says it all.

I said the legal system wasn´t geared up to respond to a collapse in the housing market. 

My wife´s parents have had the same abogado for 30 years, we´ve used him in the past, my brother in law uses him, the entire family uses him because we can trust him. I think it´s pretty common here.

Vodafone is a British company.

Spanish banks - terrible. But are you seriously going to hold up the likes of Northern Rock, RBS, LLoyds TSB, HBOS. as bastions of supreme fiscal restraint? I too will go to sleep with a smile on my face.

 It is ridiculous to assume that the average family will use insolvency as a way out of debt.  You GuyT may well belong to a generation or group who don't give a rat's a** about this kind of thing, but for the majority of people here and in Spain, going this route would be an absolute LAST RESORT and would stem out of desperation.   God - having been brought up in a home where my father worked with the Official Receiver - I know how much things have changed.   But please don't you dare to trivialise going bankrupt and advocate  joining the legion of money grabbing UK residents who are starting to see it as a right to amass debt and then walk away from it!!