When did it all go wrong for some

Personally, I have got a lot from the Forum - relevant honest data/suggestions plus good contacts.

The key is to intelligently discriminate what you take in & who you engage with !!!!!

Cheers,

Jon

 Back that up 100% Jon.   It is a great forum but suffers from misuse the same as any other forum.  There is something about writing on line that makes people say things that they would never say face to face.  Orinoco, PLEASE don't disappear.  Your posts have been extremely informative and interesting.   I don't normally engage with NormandS at all, as his posts are usually so odd, so I would encourage you just to ignore it.   I hope the Navidad group do take you  up on the offer to help.  If they are genuine, why would they not?   Perhaps you could keep us informed.   

Orinoco, the point I was trying to make is that given the title of this thread I found it very surprising that you had not heard of the Prior's case. Not only has it been widely discussed on this forum but on other forums too, in the UK press and TV, in the Spanish press (English language and Spanish) and TV, in the EU Parliament and even reported as far away as the US such was it's high profile .It still regularly re-appears in one way or another.  I am sorry if you felt I was 'picking' on you, that was not my intention, it was merely a personal observation and I hope you will continue to contribute.

As far as property purchase in Spain goes it is a bit like the Wild West with corruption, restrospective laws, land grab and lousy judicial system, and even though there can be problems anywhere it is the sheer scale of this in Spain that makes it stand out as cowboy country for property. Many of the people affected started the buying process  many years ago before the internet was widely used by so many people and before these problems had come to light. Now, thanks to the internet and ease of communication anyone considering a purchase has so much more information at their fingertips they are in a much better position to avoid many of the hardships and pitfalls experienced by others who could be considered the pioneers.

Brian,

In response, I respectfully suggest its misguided attempting to intelligently engage & thus provide oxygen to a galoot.

Just a GENERAL observation.

Cheers,

Jon

This message was last edited by Jon07 on 29/08/2011.

Yes, Jon07.  And may I respectfully second what you say to Bri.

Best wishes

Patricia

Dear All,

Oh dear the "sillies" are in full voice again, especially the "chartered" ones.

Perhaps I should join, I wonder what qualifications are required to become a "chartered silly".

In the silly vein and being just a naive victim with none of the twenty years necessary prior experience of living in Spain before employing an english lawyer to lead my purchase attempt, I am excited by Orinoco's post containing the following........

"RE. my problems with banks and phone companies.We spent 20€ on an annual subscription with OCU, I highly recommend it. They took the phone company to pieces, told us exactly what to do with our complaint against Ibercaja, i.e via Banco de España and the one lawyer we contracted told us we could do it without his help, drafted us a letter, and charged us nothing."

I, just like the other victims, can afford 20E this and every year, is there any possibility that they might assist in getting my deposit back from Interlaken???

Some while ago there was regular posts from a lady of an organisation near Estapona which were fairly encouraging, but they seem to have died out.

Any hope?

Regards

Norman

Poppyseed

As usual you are smack on, but I think those like myself, Ads, Keith, Ruth, Justin etc have spoken of the first hand experience of fact enough times now. The evidence is there in the hundreds (thousands?) of names on the petitions, and as you say, due to the ease of communication, the words good and bad have spread and the result is the current situation.  

A massive thanks to those who continue to fight for justice and those in support of change and compensation for the victims.  Most cheated are just decent folk who followed the rules. They didn't deserve the outcome, but clearly some on here will never be big hearted enough to accept that. I don't think it's worth trying to change their minds, and I think the vast majority are behind those cheated, and understand the link to the bigger picture.

Poppy, I really couldn´t care less about the Priors, I have no interest in who they are, what they do - I guarantee you though, if they´d followed my earlier advice on this forum they wouldn´t be living in a garage.

Anyone who owns a property in Spain should care about the Priors (and frankly your statement sounds very cold and uncaring to me)

If you knew anything about the Priors and their situation, you would know that they followed the advice of their solicitor to the letter.

Most Brits coming to Spain would follow their abogado's advice rather than yours - which I can totally understand!!!

    I also have had a great experiance. My wife and I dicided to have a house built in the village we dicided to live in (Cox in Alicante). All our Spanish friends told us we would have a real bad time if we continued. We contracted a architect who produced the plans pf our 235m2 village housegot a couple of quotes. it took 2 weeks to get plannng permission. The builder did such a good job even though he was 6 months late we didnt mind. 10 years on we have had 0% problems with the house and we are still over the moon with it. We have purchased apartments and re-sold them since, we have never had a any problems at all, we do understand that some people have had great difficulites which in most cases have not been there own falt.

Patrick

good to read that it's all gone pretty well for you, and  good to see your understanding that most who have had problems have not been to blame.  A post like that shows acceptence of facts, good and bad.  Most of us who have been cheated just want the best for everyone as long as they show consideration and not ignorance of those wronged.

A splendid success story, good to hear even on this thread.

I am always encouraged by them and Maria's frequent notes of intended Spanish improvements.

Also so much better than the pedantic nonsense of the "sillies", who often just display their (uncaring) ignorance.

However as often we are short on detail.

The big question is why did the all the Spanish friends believe it to be a lost cause and when if ever will the denunciation come.

More information please.

Regards

Norman

Just a reminder that the much needed changes that appear to be slowly starting to happen in recognition of the abuse so many people have suffered and will benefit EVERYONE  have been thanks to those who have fought and campaigned and brought it to the attention of the public. It certainly hasn't been thanks to the armchair critics who regard the victims as brainless twits who shouldn't be let out on their own.

I think my Spanish friends were influenced by negative stories & rumours they had heard, none of them at that point had built there own home. Since then the main doom & gloom man has built hi villa using the same builder that I used and on similar style as my house! I think that the reason we didn’t get into trouble is that we chose a respected builder in the village who has a good work record. This is something that is a bit difficult to know if you are coming from the outside into a community. My wife is Spanish and from this village. The builder (Jose Dias) does not work with estate agents who charge huge commissions. Even today he has a lot of work and is well sort after (if anyone wants to build in Cox then I can recommend him but I don’t think he would consider working out of the area).

We did not use a Solicitor. This is because my wife and I have some knowledge of the building process. I don’t recommend anyone not to use a solicitor but I think it is best to find a good one. Unfortunately many are suffering the consequence of bad administration on behalf of a solicitor that has been paid do a certain job, but it has not been done properly or the correct information was not given at a crucial time in a operation which has given place to disastrous consequences which at time it is almost imposable to remedy.

A typical example of this is the case of purchasing a property in which the solicitor in all his or her wisdom does the searches but does not inform the client buying the property that it was built without planning permission. The consequences of such negligence:- No right to electricity or water supply, difficulty in reselling such a property. Possibility that the property is not registered with the rates office and subsequence fines being issued by the rates office. This is the type of issue that is facing hundreds of expats in the Alicante area and in most of the rest of Spain.

It is terrible to be cheated and many are not able to not able to get out of the situation without a long legal procedure. I have many friends in this type of situation.

As to denouncing the situation, I recommend people to go to the school of Solicitors (Ilustre Colegio de Abogados). to seek free legal aid. It can be obtained if you are on a pension, low income or just haven’t got too much money in your bank account etc. There is normally a school of solicitors in most major towns. In the south of Alicante there is one in Orihuela, I imagine there is one in Elche too.

The more people that denounce builders, solicitors, architects & estate agents the more the state starts to take notice, especially if the state is paying the bill!.

SUPERB AND VERY MANY THANKS

could I ask you to post it on Navidad's thread please.

so there you have it once again we are not a "few" or "some" we are many thousands and Spain has been playing the same tricks for some fifty years or more - FACT FACT FACT INDISPUTABLE FACT

but of course some questions remain.......

what has a knowledge of building to do with the necessity to employ a lawyer?

how do you ensure that your local "village" building consent will not be challenged by the Junta and your own place denounced.

surely your Spanish friends knew more about the system than yourself?

are you living in a fools paradise?

how can you be sure.

I have seen some near useless scrubby land described as "agricultural", what land are you building new houses on?

Sorry to press you but information is everything to the forum.

Regards

Norman

Im sorry if I leave so much room to create more questions.

 At the time of building our house we only had alittle knolledge of how the legal side should work. We were building in the village on urban land, not in the countryside. We were permited to build 3 stories in the part of the village where are plot of land was. We needed to get a demolition order for the existing property, planning permission, pay licences etc. for our own property to be built. We had the plans passed by the Valencian school of architects. Once we finnished construction we got bulitins and habitation certificate for the electricity and water connection. Finaly we had the house registered with the rates office. I think it is advisable for someone who does not speak Spanish to contract a solicitor first to check the possability tobe able to build where they hope to build first before purchasing.

If for some reason my property was denounced by the Valencian community then I would take then to task on it as we have complyed to all the normative and they have no ground to do so. (The photo is my house).

My Spanish friends were not in the know how, infact the main doom and gloom man had a prefab house erected on a peice of land he owned. He was asured by the solicitor of the company selling the prefabs that it was o.k. The town hall took him to court and he was ordered to remove it because it was on protected land. Then he had a house built by my builder friend within a area that was alowed to build on.

I havent been involved in building properties myself for some time. If you know someone who is wanting to build a property it is possable to get a certificate from the town hall of the area that will show what can be built. I did that for some land my wife and I own in Pinoso. We have 16,000m2 up there and we could build quite alot on in including a house, warehouse stables etc. The certificate is called Certificado urbanistic and it cost me about 13€.

Personaly I think it best to purchase a resale propert or a bank repossesion, it seems they are so much cheeper than building these days.

I will post a entry that I have published in my own blog. Feel free to repost anything I post there is no copywrite.

Thank you again Patrick, very grateful.

Regards

Norman