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Come on Normansands - even you have to admit it is a bit thin on details!! Where exactly is the land? Who was the agent? etc etc. I may just be being cynical but there are plenty of wind up merchants on forums like this just to get things heated up. And if I urgently needed advice on such a big issue with multiple people involved, I think I would be looking at something other than a general forum!!! Informative as it is!!!
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Brian
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I don´t think anyone really intends to kick them whilst they are down Norman, just at first glance the sequence of events seems incredulous, akin to one of those Nigerian scams; "Your long lost relative died, you are now a millionaire, please send 40,000 quid in order to help us get the money out of the country and transfer it to you." But we only know half the story (and having it split over 2 threads doesn´t make it any easier to follow). Not only have these people lost money on a bad property deal, they´ve lost what is left due to the banking crisis. What on earth was going on? It sounds like an OAP´s investment club on steroids.
If these people could afford to throw thousands at solicitors, why didn´t they pool together and get a translator? According to Navidad the firm of abogados acted as both buyer and seller in the property deal; surely the definition of "conflict of interest" which is why contacting the releveant "colegio" is paramount.
Navidad mentioned a fax that was sent in 2004 stating that at least one of the properties was legal, what has been happening for the last 7 years? How many people are affected?
I´m never going to say that buying property in Spain is a risk-free process, it is fraught with potential disasters. But the risk can be minimised. Rent here for 12 months whilst you assimilate. Get to know an area, get to know at least some of the language. Buy an existing house in an established area. Get to know your local town hall. Join ex-pat forums and research every aspect of what you intend to do. Insist on written quotes, demand copies of official documents. Really just common-sense stuff - "Buyer beware!" etc.
I´m not going to speculate on the authenticity of Navidad´s post. My wife has offered to help them in whatever capacity she can,
Love the use of the word "fibber" though. Not heard that in years!
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I agree entirely with you Orinoco and Bri.
There is so much good common sense in your post Orinoco. I am so glad it is you say this and not me. I tried to say the same in so many words months back and ll I got was abuse.
" I´m never going to say that buying property in Spain is a risk-free process, it is fraught with potential disasters. But the risk can be minimised. Rent here for 12 months whilst you assimilate. Get to know an area, get to know at least some of the language. Buy an existing house in an established area. Get to know your local town hall. Join ex-pat forums and research every aspect of what you intend to do. Insist on written quotes, demand copies of official documents. Really just common-sense stuff - "Buyer beware!" etc."
Then of course, and as you probably know, people will only hear what they want to hear.
Patricia
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Dear All,
what a lot of self-justification verbage/garbage.
PERHAPS WE MIGHT AGREE THAT BUYING IN SPAIN OR ANYWHERE ELSE IS A SIMPLE STRAIGHTFORWARD TRANSACTION
FRAUGHT WITH NOTHING BUT BOREDAM
IF THE LAWYER YOU EMPLOY IS HONEST AND TRUSTWORTHY
as the unfortunates here expected - rightfully expected.
Regards
Norman
This message was last edited by normansands on 28/08/2011.
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N. Sands
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As you say, Orinoco.
"I don´t think anyone really intends to kick them whilst they are down Norman, just at first glance the sequence of events seems incredulous, akin to one of those Nigerian scams; "Your long lost relative died, you are now a millionaire, please send 40,000 quid in order to help us get the money out of the country and transfer it to you." But we only know half the story (and having it split over 2 threads doesn´t make it any easier to follow). Not only have these people lost money on a bad property deal, they´ve lost what is left due to the banking crisis. What on earth was going on? It sounds like an OAP´s investment club on steroids. "
It-s true Orinoco. Only believe half of what you hear, and think two or three times about the other half.
Patricia
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This was Alamillo"s original post::
You will note that A says at the end of his/her post.
"Good luck to all those fighting for justice".
My Little piece of heaven.
As much as I enjoy reading the posts on EOS. I sometimes find it hard to believe that it is Spain I am reading about.
I know this won’t help anybody. But. My Little piece of heaven.
I purchased a 3-bedroom house off plan back in 2001. The constructors were a small family run business that were building in the area. As far as I know no longer trading (Never had to call them back to fix anything).
The build time was 2 years. Completed on time. Deposit paid and further payments in stages, controlled by my solicitor
No Mortgage needed. 2 year forward purchase of currency at an excellent rate. (Better than build costs). All for a 10% deposit, saving me loads in the long run.
An excellent Solicitor, who I still use for fiscal representation and advice.
Bank Guarantee in place. 10 year build certificate guarantee NIE, Spanish wills complete. Bank accounts sorted, Power of attorney given and shared between the wife and me. Wealth Tax & income tax paid each year. Habitation certificate given within 3 months of completion. All connections to utilities. Direct debits set up. Post box set up at the local post office. Alarm fitted with SOS service on contract. House and contents insurance sorted.
I pay my IBI each year to the Town hall. We get regular Police patrols. We have street lighting. Our roads are swept each week. We enjoy very few interruptions of Electricity or water supply The Gas bottle man calls each week. The Bread man calls each day. We have a small group of private builders who are kept busy with work on alterations and small works the same have been around for a number of years recommended by word of mouth.
I have my own Spanish reg car. Big saving on Car hire costs. Parking contract at both Alicante & Murcia excellent service provided by highly recommended company.
I am a non-resident owner. With visits each month throughout the year.
Retirement bungalow in a very nice part of the uk.
Yes I am still employed at the age of 60.
This is my Spanish Dream and I would never consider giving it up.
Running costs over the past 8 years.
Approx €3000 per year not including running the car.
My biggest out lay is pool maintenance.
A story that has to be told.
When did it all change or have I missed something
It is not all doom and gloom being a property owner in Spain.
Or
Have I got my hell to come?
My property is still worth more than the purchase price even in this present climate.
Yes I know very few properties are selling.
But I am not for selling.
So. Come on lets here some more OK happy stories.
Good Luck to all those that are fighting for Justice.
Viva Espania
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Norman, I won´t agree that buying a property is a simple straight-forward transaction. I´d be wary about buying a second hand car in the UK, or anywhere for that matter. So something as serious as buying a house, widely acknowledged as one of the most stress-related activities you can expect to be involved in in your life, certainly by far the biggest single investment a person can expect to take on in their life, is unlikely to be classed in my book as "a straight-forward transaction".
I don´t doubt the existence of people that have done everything that they can to research their purchase, got their bank guarantees, had all the permissions necessary for construction, only to have a local town hall´s permission overturned by a regional junta. It is bollocks, and to Spain´s shame.
I reckon those cases though are a minority. Norman says hundreds of thousands of ex-pats are victims. I reckon that the Brit expat population constitutes at max, 2% of Spain´s overall population. So theoretically there should be literally millions of natives facing these same issues. Every local rag, news channel, should be full of stories about Spaniards living in their garage etc. But that´s not the case - why?
This idea Norman has, that every lawyer is trustworthy? Pure naivety. I don´t believe it. I don´t believe it here and I don´t believe it in the UK. Because someone is a professional doesn´t automatically suggest they have scruples, morals... Any Spaniard reading the press and seeing that the (ex) home secratary´s husband is watching porn courtesy of the UK taxpayer must wonder how our system works, or looking at the police involvement in the NOTW phone hacking scandal, the riots... the list is endless. Frankly, is it all so rosy in the UK?
The legal system here has twice worked in my favour over the past five years, once against a bank, and once against a telecommunications company. Knowing where to turn and who to trust comes with experience.
People buy here on a whim, and they pay the price.
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Norman, I won´t agree that buying a property is a simple straight-forward transaction. I´d be wary about buying a second hand car in the UK, or anywhere for that matter. So something as serious as buying a house, widely acknowledged as one of the most stress-related activities you can expect to be involved in in your life, certainly by far the biggest single investment a person can expect to take on in their life, is unlikely to be classed in my book as "a straight-forward transaction".
you should read the book "the conveyancing fraud" who causes the stress - the lawyers
as to cars yes they are somewhat more complex than a pile of bricks
I don´t doubt the existence of people that have done everything that they can to research their purchase, got their bank guarantees, had all the permissions necessary for construction, only to have a local town hall´s permission overturned by a regional junta. It is bollocks, and to Spain´s shame.
I reckon those cases though are a minority. Norman says hundreds of thousands of ex-pats are victims. I reckon that the Brit expat population constitutes at max, 2% of Spain´s overall population. So theoretically there should be literally millions of natives facing these same issues. Every local rag, news channel, should be full of stories about Spaniards living in their garage etc. But that´s not the case - why? yes indeed as reported so far, the Priors are a minority, hopefully it will stay that way and Spain's shame may be eventually forgotten. As to the locals, again as reported on this forum and elsewhere repossessions are staggeringly high, don't you have a distressed neighbour yourself???
This idea Norman has, that every lawyer is trustworthy? did I say that, I think you had better read the book again............Pure naivety. I don´t believe it. I don´t believe it here and I don´t believe it in the UK. Because someone is a professional doesn´t automatically suggest they have scruples, morals... Any Spaniard reading the press and seeing that the (ex) home secratary´s husband is watching porn courtesy of the UK taxpayer must wonder how our system works, or looking at the police involvement in the NOTW phone hacking scandal, the riots... the list is endless. Frankly, is it all so rosy in the UK? .............NO NO NO PROFESSIONAL DISHONESTY IS THE BIGGEST CRIME ON THE PLANET BIGGER EVEN THAN SHOPLIFTING I EXPECT.......
The legal system here has twice worked in my favour over the past five years, once against a bank, and once against a telecommunications company. Knowing where to turn and who to trust comes with experience.Did you employ a lawyer?????
People buy here on a whim, and they pay the price......No they buy using a lawyer
How is the investigation going?.......... is it a wind up?
Is Navidad genuine??????????
Regards
Norman
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N. Sands
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I can´t make any sense of your post Norman. I´m sorry.
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orinoco fear not it would seem you are not alone
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I´ve trawled through your post Norman.
Why am I going to read "The conveyancing fraud"? I have a hundred books on my amazon wish list, trust me, that one isn´t about to break through to my bill board chart.
"The Priors are a minority, long may it stay that way!". Exactly, I couldn´t agree more. I have no idea who they are or what has happened, but as long as you acknowledge they are a minority we can all move on.
"Repossessions are staggerlinly high", unemployment is also staggeringly high, I´m guessing the two are related. But what´s your unique view on the situation? I do indeed have distressed neighbours, they live next door to me afterall, so it is to be expected :)
Their homes have been repossessed, their kids are staying with neighbours so their education isn´t interrupted, the local church is helping with food, the town hall is trying to make some sort of temporary accommodation available to them so that the family doesn´t fall apart, but we´re 1500 people, what can we do? - what is your point?
"This idea Norman has, that every lawyer is trustworthy? did I say that, I think you had better read the book again............" I don´t know what book you are talking about Norman. You are always here taking lawyers to pieces, they are lawyers and should uphold the law etc etc. And I agree, but I´m not surprised to find out that not all of them do. Some of them are scum, and will take every penny they can out of an unsuspecting ex-pat. And what? Every policeman in the UK plays it by the book? There´s no such thing as a dodgy lawyer in the UK?
" .............NO NO NO PROFESSIONAL DISHONESTY IS THE BIGGEST CRIME ON THE PLANET BIGGER EVEN THAN SHOPLIFTING I EXPECT......."
I have absolutely no idea what you´re trying to convey here? That stealing a bag of crisps isn´t on a par with corporate crime? I think most people get that.
RE. my problems with banks and phone companies.We spent 20€ on an annual subscription with OCU, I highly recommend it. They took the phone company to pieces, told us exactly what to do with our complaint against Ibercaja, i.e via Banco de España and the one lawyer we contracted told us we could do it without his help, drafted us a letter, and charged us nothing.
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Im not sure the two books that Norman is avidly supporting on EOS ( 'Lawyers Can Seriously Damage Your Health' [1985] and Conveyancing Fraud' [1994]) are totally pertinent - given when the books were written and topic matter not being about Spanish law.
Can anyone can suggest a more up to date and useful book that people can refer to???
C
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'"The Priors are a minority, long may it stay that way!". Exactly, I couldn´t agree more. I have no idea who they are or what has happened, but as long as you acknowledge they are a minority we can all move on.'"
Ornioco, if you haven't heard of the Prior's then I really feel you are out of touch with what has been going on in Spain. This must be one of the most high profile cases of the last few years and is regularly mentioned on EOS and in the UK press.
This message was last edited by Poppyseed on 28/08/2011.
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Poppyseed
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Seriously poppyseed, out of 7 paragraphs you have decided to pick me up on the one where I freely admit to having no knowledge. Why?
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Poppy, I really couldn´t care less about the Priors, I have no interest in who they are, what they do - I guarantee you though, if they´d followed my earlier advice on this forum they wouldn´t be living in a garage.
I live in a comparitively remote region of Spain, hence the restauarant reviews etc on this site are wasted on me. I have no qualms though about passing on any knowledge I´ve gleaned over the years, in the hope that it makes an easier transition for someone else. You say I´m "out of touch with what is happening in Spain" - It´s me that is out of touch is it? Really?
I dont log in here to sing the praises of the Spanish system, indeed more often than not I acknowledge its faults, I am not one of Norman´s "happies".
It is what it is.
People have moved here and found what they are looking for, others have found misery.
I don´t need this forum, and certainly this forum doesn´t need me. I´ll come back in 6 months and see if it has perked up a bit, all of you, take care!
XX
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You would be sadly missed, Orinoco. More posters like you are needed here. You always given an honest and balanced viewpoint, and you are sincere.
That is what it is about. Hoping that our knowledge from over the years might make the transition easier for someone else.
I think many, if not most, of the posters here would be glad of your knowledge. Try not to pay attention to the snipers and constant naysayers.
Patricia
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Dear All,
Orinoco seems to acknowledge that it took him many years to gain his info, info that he expects all the UK OAPs to have had at their disposal before they attempted their Spanish purchases.
He confuses a single thread with the forum as a whole and only recognises the unkown Priors as a single victim count, bizarre really.
But he now seems to recognise that Navidad is genuine and the OAP story true, so he is still learning and has offered to help as best possible.
"Therefor those of you who have put me into the fibber and scammer department I can assure you this is totally and utterly wrong, they did also notify me to say Mr Zapatero's house is buiilt on a ramblica, I do not have verification and once I do I will let those who do not think I am a prospective thief. I do not want any funds only ideas to help."
If we can get Campana and a few others onside perhaps the victims will get some comfort in their misery.
Comfort may not change much but at least it is better than abuse and ridicule.
Keep it up Orinoco and keep us informed, there is no disgrace in learning a little more to add to your experience and please keep posting to inform us all.
Regards
Norman
This message was last edited by normansands on 29/08/2011.
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N. Sands
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I had never heard of the Priors either until I joined this forum (relatively recently). And all I know is the little I have read here.
Thank heavens I never asked the question: "who are the Priors" or I'd really have been beaten around the head. (LOL). As it was I was almost lynched for asking some questions about the "campaign" and matters related thereto.
We are all still learning about all kinds of facets of life. The world is a vast place, and fraught with both good and less good stuff.
No one is abusing or ridiculing any "Victim" here, that I can see. In fact it is those who ask questions, who would like to offer help and suggestions that I see being abused and ridiculed. I have never considered myself either "offside" or "onside".
I am afraid it is late in the day to recruit me now. I have little liking for cyber lynch-mobs, and as I once remarked to Ads, the real "victms" would do well to distance themselves from the snipers and trolls.
Patricia
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