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Dear All,
I know and sympathise with the feelings expressed and there are many things to abhor in the current world state......
but my experience with an apparently honest and trustworthy system with an apparently honest paragon solicitor has brought reality.
when I employ a young man to work on the holding with success for one day and have him not turn up the next day to mystify me and prompt enquiry......he could not "get up" the second day ....... returns a week later to collect his one days pay with no explanation, I realise I am out of date in this modern world.
The constant break-in to the stables and sheds such that we now leave them unlocked and remove all valuables in our peaceful countryside reinforces the realisation of what we have become. As does the crime numbers you get from a civilian if you waste time reporting matters to the police.
as to bankrupcy....well....
a local handyman on low wages got housing benefit, his wife worked as a house cleaner privately for some clients and her income was cash in hand, undeclared. She was reported and followed from house to house by investigators.
He was prosecuted for not declaring her earnings on his benefit application and sentenced to community service plus repayment of a large sum.......so large or penalty payments so small that he would need to live until 157 years working to pay it off.
No being that "thick" he opts for bankrupcy...........all loans cleared and eighteen months later the banks are pressing him with credit cards again.
The family could reinstate housing benefit but prefer to live in a caravan for the rest of their days.
Whilst in process he met many in the waiting rooms that were boasting of the number of times they have done it and the increasing amounts involved each time.
What with that and the number of students doing it to erase student loans it is now much more socially acceptable so there is little point becoming indignant about it.
Part of the scandal were the banks valuations and they must be held accountable.
Regards
Norman
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N. Sands
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Great where people quickly get to the point & avoid verbosity !!
Cheers,
Jon
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Fascinating link that illustrates my point perfectly.
Thank you.
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Well, I'm glad we agree at last. As the law says, move to UK and properly establish your residency: in this (the German's) instance it was five months. Then one is fireproof. Obviously one doesn't go over for a long weekend and establish phony credentials and try and pretend you are a UK resident. That is such a stupid idea that I'm surprised you thought that was the way I was suggesting.
There seems to be a lack of sympathy for the poor Spanish who find themselves in the terrible situation of losing their house, their job, having no assets, and simultaneously having no recourse to draw a line under their situation. It is apparently expected that they carry the debt burden for the rest of their working life. How can they ever try and rebuild their lives?
Someone said that "going this route would be an absolute LAST RESORT and would stem out of desperation". Well, if our Spaniard in question isn't entitled to feel desperate about his situation - no home, job and still owing 200k - then nobody is. They also shrilly warned me "don't you dare to trivialise going bankrupt". What's trivial about a family losing everything? We are not talking about some Brit slapper running up credit card bills holidaying and having plastic surgery - then going bust and laughing at her creditors.
I am fortunate enough to have family who would have helped me had I found myself in this situation - they would certainly have offered to look after my children and given me the money to live for 6 - 12 months while I sorted myself out. Remarks such as "says it all" mystify me. But if you don't have that family support avalable I can well imagine it would strike one as a bizarre notion.
Let the Spansh sort it out for themselves.
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You seem to move the goalposts everytime you add to this thread. It started off with "flip burgers for a couple of months" and "Bob´s your uncle". You accompanied that with the conceited opinion that the Spanish were "pretty thick" for not having an indepth knowledge of UK bankruptcy laws.
You followed that by suggesting elderly relatives could take care of any children for 12 months. Significantly longer than the 2 months you kicked off with, hence "Says it all."
Then you share a link with us which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt just how complicated the process is. Our German friend hadn´t fallen off a plane to flip burgers. He was here working in a specialised field (nuclear medicine), presumably with a high level of English, on a wage that could afford him some half decent legal advice. He was here 6 months before he even applied for bankruptcy, we can only guess at how long the investigation in to his affairs in Germany took, document translation etc etc. The over-riding impression I got from the case study was that the Official Receiver wasn´t particularly convinced.
The final comments from the legal firm that published the document sum it up perfectly:
"Bankruptcy proceedings by debtors with foreign connections are becoming increasingly common. It is
therefore necessary for the Official Receiver and creditors to be vigilant to ensure that such
proceedings are not an abuse of process, in the sense that the debtor is simply “forum shopping” for
the more indulgent insolvency regime in this jurisdiction, by acquiring an accommodation address or
by having some other temporary connection with the UK."
Which is precisely what you are advocating; that Spaniards shop around for the more indulgent solvency regime, and exactly what the Official Receiver is going to be vigilant about.
I´ve not once said it can´t be done. I questioned your time-frame and the perceived ease with which it could be achieved.
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Dear All,
it seems to me that no matter how much the "happies" try to spin matters they will never reduce the hundreds of thousands of us victims to "some" or just a "few" no matter how many silly posts they make.
The puzzle is why do they do it???............. they say it is to restore the "balance"............"misery" threads offend them in their happiness.
I wonder if any happy is going to tell these victims how stupid they are for trusting "professionals" most especially the worst kind the lawyers..................
We need help, several pensioners bought land in Almeria from an estate agent, we were all assured the land had planning permission to errect dwellings and foolishly we agreed to use the same abogada. The abogada charged us exceptionally high fees, foolishly we did not ask for a quote and to give an example one person paid 12,500 euro for conveyancing and another 9500 euro, two are too ashamed to admit what they paid him. We have all been denounced, we all went to the abogada and he charged each dwelling 300 euro per dwelling the write the same leter to the town hall. The abogada did not tell any of us we had bought land with permission for a NAVE, we learned this in the middle of constructing our villas, then the lawyer announced that those near the ramblica would never be legal and it is likely the houses can be demolished. The lawyer said Spain changed the law in respect of the proximity to the of the property to the ramblica!
The Estate Agent went into liquidation, however we are in touch with a couple who worked for the estate agents who can vouch what was said to us. Tow of the men have died from heart attacks as a result of the stress.
One person was told if they paid for a habliation licence one could be issued.
Some of us want to come home and cannot do so because we have spent all our money, we are also living in the lane where raw sewage passes our villas.
Can anyone advise, please
if only we could.
Regards
Norman
p.s.
we are not a "few" or even "some"........we are many........
185 Million Euros in off plan deposits lost on just five developments. Want to add yours?
This message was last edited by normansands on 26/08/2011.
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N. Sands
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What a thoroughly idiotic post. Are you seriously suggesting only disgruntled property purchasers have the right to post on this forum?
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Dear ORINOC,
YOU HAVE MADE SOME GOOD POSTS
why must you insult your own intelligence by confusing single threads with the forum as a whole, enjoy you happiness and stop insulting the unfortunate victims with your claimed "higher" intelligence.
Regards
Norman
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N. Sands
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When did I claim I had a "higher intelligence" Norman?
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We love our place in the sun and as my husband comes from Gibraltar all his family are here. Our apartment is beautiful with a huge veranda and a wonderful view. We love coming here and hubs family use it quite often.
What has disillusioned us is the developer who has money but absolutely refuses to pay his outstanding maintenance bills nor will he upkeep the property. All around us are complexes that are being painted but our developer has flatly refused to fund the initial one that he was duty bound to do . Why because he knows he does not have to do it until we get a court order . Why spend money when he does not have to . Some of his own properties were damaged in the rain last year and his Insurance company refused to pay up as he did not do what he was supposed to do with regard to maintenance – tough on him but what about the rest of the properties. It is awful to see a beautiful property which sadly in a few years will look terrible . ( Maybe the court case might have been heard by then but will he have the money to pay ?? ) He is a b------
Fortunately we have more Spanish owners which helps and they have insisted on a new company to manage the property who seem to take a better interest . Maybe things will change . I hope so .
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"I wonder if any happy is going to tell these victims how stupid they are for trusting "professionals" most especially the worst kind the lawyers.................."
Nobody needs to tell them Norman, as they say themselves not once, but twice, how foolish they were. I´m trying to envisage a situation where I would arrive in say Poland, walk into an estate agents I´d never heard of, throw money at a solicitor I´ve never heard of, accept "assurances" as opposed to actual documents, and expect everything to work out just fine. One trip to the Town Hall would have revealed what was and wasn´t allowed to be constructed on the land and evidently not one person bothered, I find that quite staggering.
I´ve never insulted unfortunate victims, in fact I´ve said more than once on here that I have nothing but sympathy for people that have lost money.
"Happies" don´t need to "spin" matters Norman, they´re just happy.
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"I´m trying to envisage a situation where I would arrive in say Poland, walk into an estate agents I´d never heard of, throw money at a solicitor I´ve never heard of, accept "assurances" as opposed to actual documents, and expect everything to work out just fine. "
Never a week goes past that I'm not utterly amazed at the sheer stupidity , lack of common sense , & breath-taking inability to comprehend what could possibly go wrong that most Brits I come across have ! It does make you wonder whether they should ever be allowed out on their own, let alone allow them out of the country.
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Todos somos Lorca.
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Hear, hear, Orinoco and Guslopez.
Patricia
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Dear All,
the younger element use a term that I suppose must come from the US - streetwise.
if you have it - lucky you - if not you are a victim to some degree.
if not you trust a lawyer especially if you are without the language - that is just common sense isn't it??????.
Bigwilly has told us how he now understands the Big C in Spain and even embraces it as a good system.
BUT YOU DO NOT EXPECT IT FROM THE LAW AND THE LAWYER.
the town hall makes and administers the law surely they can be trusted???????????????
Elderly pensioners from the UK are no doubt not streetwise in Spain and of course had no idea that the Big C was totally prevalent there.
Perhaps someone should publish a book detailing the full extent of the Big C with the first chapter on not trusting the biggest criminal of the lot - the leader in absolute deception - the Spanish lawyer.
it seems that being streetwise is not enough in itself - to prove your wonderous gift you have to despise the unfortunate victims, regularly in print, at every opportunity.
what a very sad bunch - shame on you.
Regards
Norman
This message was last edited by normansands on 28/08/2011.
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N. Sands
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The government makes the laws the courts adminster the law some understand it some dont some avoid it
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In my humple opinion, "STREETWISE" equates to caveat emptor plus applying rigid intelligent due diligence !!!!!
Regardless, I feel very sorry for people who have not adopted such an approach & got ripped off.
Jon
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Surely the very fact that people say those who trusted their lawyers were foolish, naive etc proves how bad the Spanish system is.
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Poppyseed
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If we are still on the Navidad post - what is described there is similar to the land scams going on at the moment in the UK (BBC reported on this recently) - find some willing participants, sadly often the elderly as they have the money to spare and are looking for a better investment that the paltry interest they are getting at thre moment- tell them that in the future there will be planning permission for hundreds of houses and they will make a killing. The Times and the BBC exposed the fact that most of this land will never get planning permission, and if it did, the number of people being conned would mean there will be no killing!! Navidad's group bought thinking they had permission, but I wonder how much is lost in translation if none of them speak Spanish? Navidad's group (if it is not a a bit of a wind up - forgive me if it is genuine) only have themselves to blame. Sadly, I would suggest that with the crash in property prices they will lose less by walking away, than by pusuing a claim in a foreign country, in a language they do not speak, to build a house which will truly not be worth a lot.
But the REALLY wierd thing is that in spite of all the warnings, people here in the UK are queuing up to buy land on which they might at some time in the future make a killing!!!! (and for those who think that we in the UK are so squeeky clean, it is going to take some time (i.e. years) to get regulations into place to force these conmen be more honest about the prospects)
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Brian
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well there you have it.............
not only are the victims mindless morons
they are fibbers as well
as to UK planning corruption you haven't a clue
I knew that old "Good Samaritan story was a hoax - it doesn't fit us humans at all
kick them while they are down............. that's the ticket
Regards
Norman
This message was last edited by normansands on 28/08/2011.
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N. Sands
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