How Spain has changed in 10 years....??!!!!

I see what you mean about change but  Spain is fantastic weather wise, and the prices are still very cheap to give you an example I live in Spian for 4 Months of the Year and in Ireland the other 8, the price of 1 Orange here is 59 cent, and in Spain I get 12 for 50 cent.,  I could go on and on but when I am in Spain for a few Months then I like to come home to West Cork in Ireland for a while, whatever it is, home is where the heart is..................

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Spain is in a mess.

This weeks unemployment figures were again depressing. Unemployment is at record levels and there seems no sign of it being capped never mind being reduced. The PM is fearing a General Strike. Spanair go to the wall after the Catalonian government refuse to throw more money at it. Nobody answers my questions (a) why did they buy in and (b) why did they continue to throw money at an airline where the losses were more than the income! (Malev's departure won't help either!) Spain has 1,5 million empty houses and ca 3 million homes for sale. Youth unemployment is at 44% and adult unemployment may well hot 25%.

There have been many in denial for many months but even some of the überpositive brigade are having to realise that things are very tough here for the AVERAGE Spanish family. (Let me ignore expats for a moment) 

I was always told by my elders that to resolve a problem, the first thing one must do is recognise it, then decide on what to do and finally see any resolution through. 

The biggest problem was the greed of the 90s. Especially in the property markets, people prostituted themselves with the family jewels and many (if not most) building projects ended in tears. Hopefully those coming out of denial can now come up with some solutions. Rajoy has failed to impress so far and the PSOE conference has been a complete farce this weekend with nobody seemingly accepting that they had been in power for 8 years! (So, if there are "deep-rooted problems" that need to be addressed, the PSOE caused them and had two mandates to resolve them. They are not deep-rooted over the past 75 days!) 

As for the expats on the coast, sadly, many many of my friends are returning. Those that tried to work here without sufficient skills, resources, contacts etc. Yes, they are being replaced by a FEW, just a few, VERY affluent Russians but even talking to a Russian estate agent friend of mine, she is not expecting a flood. 

I am very fortunate, I have been here 10 years+, have no mortgage and no car finance. What keeps me comfortable though is that I earn 99% of my income from outside of Spain. I work online 24/7 and apart from the odd translation and a few bits of local advertising fees I earn nothing from Spain. Realistically, if I were reliant on Spain, I'd have to move on. Spain, is a land of opportunities and some with big pockets, much fortune, skills and professionalism, a huge work-rate will do well here. For the others, I see challenging years. 

All that said, I love Spain and in my heart of hearts KNOW it will bounce back. There is a tenacity about the Spaniard that I am sure will ensure that the country comes back stronger and fitter than ever. A new generation of Spaniard is coming through - more international and more cosmopolitan that can lead the country in the public and private sectors. I believe there will be less dependency on the enchufe and the family and more focus on professional working and management practices. 

As for the costas, Spain has been the preferred choice for many years. With increasing fuel costs and more Northern Europeans concerned about the environmental damage of long-distance tourism, Spain will come strong. Troubles in Egypt and other countries in the Middle-East and North Africa will I am sure help this year. Certainly the tourist figures for the year are looking very positive. Here's hoping! 

 

 

 

 

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Spains corruption and lack of transparency have come back to haunt it. With mayors in town halls, courtesy of the autonomous communities - having embezzled millions, leaving town halls bankrupt - no accountability and to drag anyone into court on fraud charges takes years and the outcome?

I represented a few commercial overseas investors who wished to build substantial projects in Spain, Valencian community. First project was a care village to provide a needed service locally and local emloyment. End result no outline planning, agrrements in principal - handshake. No protection of investors money or guarantees.

Investment that did not take place 11 million euros
Jobs not created 20 +/-

An investor in power wished to build a number of solar farms, based on the Spanish governments grants. End result, 2 lawyers running around in Madrid to find out no funds available, in spite of being told the opposite shortly beforehand

Investment that did not take place 58 million dollars
Jobs lost 100+


There are a few more.


Schools cannot afford to be kept open, teachers not paid, childrens lunch money being used to keep the doors open.


All of this goes back to the level of corruption and utter lack of transparency within the legal and political system within Spain. Huge reforms are needed, which simply do not seem to be happening.

it is time for Spain to move forward. In the Valencian community, a revolution is needed.

In the meantime I will console myself with the mild climate and 0.60 cents for a glass of local wine :)



This message was last edited by televisiontechnology on 05/02/2012.

This message was last edited by televisiontechnology on 05/02/2012.

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The infrastructre in Spain is much much better than it was 10 years ago.  Particularly the roads.  Around here in Mazarron, the roads are fantastic with hardly any traffic, so uklike the UK.  We are in the process of making the move to Spain after spending the last 3 months here as a trial.  I think that many ex-pats have got on rose tinted glasses as far as the UK is concerned.  In many parts it is a ----hole!  Certainly the Spanish people don't seem to want to start businesses.  There doesn't seem to be much entrepreneurial spirit and any new businesses that are getting started around here are by foreigners.  But there are so many other compensations to living in Spain, the lack of rain being the main one for me, coming from the West coast of Scotland!

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I have just come back to France from actually selling a house in North Murcia after five years and dropping the price fifty percent which says it all. After an absense of five years the infra road structure on major routes is very good, take the AP36 from Albacette to Madrid, not a soul on it it. That is because of the toll charges which have now doubled . Fuel prices to are now greater than in France. I stayed at Mavi Hotel,la Cabrera on the A1 north of Madrid. Again there price has gone up from 30 to 50 euro for a night and this is not a tourist hotel.  I was in Mula where the problems of all those empty properties from the boom time has been solved by agents letting to Romanians and Ecuadorians. Outside of these roads that take you the length of Spain, the buildings now just seem run down rather romantic. there are no longer masses of mopeds buzzing around as there is no work and the police are clamping down on all the unregistered and uninsured bikes. One aspect that hadn't changed was that all the municipal taxes for selling had to be paid in cash. I suppose that sums up the way some things have changed and others are still the same.

 

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We've been in Spain now for over 6 years - and we love living here.  However, we do feel we were nieve when we came out here.  It's so completely different from the u.k. (which is one of it's charms) - but we've spent over 50 years in the u.k.  - and it's difficult to adapt to a 'Spanish' way of life.  So we do what we can to live here (learn the language, attempt to learn the rules and regs etc??) - and enjoy the beautiful weather and wonderful scenery.  We are fortunate that we don't need to work to live comfortably (we've done our time in the u.k. and got pensions).  I would not choose to come here unless I was financially independant - and I certainly wouldn't come with children (although the spanish way of life is great for them) - it's just too difficult to find work and earn a living here.  The world is in turmoil financially - and Europe is struggling - so the U.K.  is a better option for work etc.  The Spanish don't seem to be able to get their act together (similar to a few other E.U. countries) - they can't admit to the mistakes they've made and continue to make.  They could attract a lot of investment in their country (they do have wonderful weather) - but they don't have the leadership or structure to make the best of their assets.  Many more folk would come here and invest their life savings - but the Spanish cannot be trusted - they've ripped off too many people and killed the goose that would be continuing to lay golden eggs - WHAT A SHAME!! 

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I think that the interesting thing here is not what we all already know, "Spain is in the S**t", but lets read some suggestions of what Spain needs to do to get more people flying into their airports and spending their money in the hotels, bars, restaurants and leisure facilities up and down the coast.

The UK went through this boom and bust exercise 3 or 4 years ago and still isnt out of it yet by a long way, but its not as bad as it was for a lot of people. Yes people are losing their jobs, things are tight, but still 85% of the population are still working, eating, LIVING and wanting a holiday.

For me the thing i have noticed more than anything along the coast is often the pure greed of some of the bars, restaurants and shops, not forgetting the golf courses that through their excessive charging, sent winter golfers all over europe looking for cheaper alternatives...and guess what, they found them and are now spending their £1000 a man for 5 days in another economy elsewhere...

Bar and restaurant owners seeing a decline on tourist numbers, try racking up the charges for beer and meals, to take more from a smaller number of people...forcing holidaymakers to look at Turkey, Croatia and and Portugal for better value...in fact i've heard it on more than one occassion " the beer on the beach is more expensive than a pint in a Mayfair pub!!!"

Spain and its economy need tourism, its those 100,000 people a day pourining into the airports and resorts with £750pp a week to spend on a good time, that they are turning off with their high prices, poor value and now often surley service.

Its time for Spain and its tourism industry to take a good hard look at itself and perhaps suffer some more pain and go back to the basics that started the whole Spanish holiday experience. Yes only the strong will survive and new entrepreneurs that think they can do it better and more economically will emerge...BUT BE WARNED - people have now experienced the good things in life, they know what they want and wont put up with being ripped off in Spain anymore.

Spainish Tourism needs to work smarter, introduce new ideas and clean up the service standards that have experienced serious slipage over the good years.

The good news in all of this is that the rest of Europe love Spain, all Spain needs to do is draw a line under the old ways, look at its offereing and re-invent itself for the new world going forward.

Its a good time to remind Spain and perhaps introduce them to an old famous business quote..... 

" If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got!" 

SPAIN...Change your package, up the quality and offereing, give more value for money, raise the standards, SMILE....

I've already booked 4 trips to the coast this year and look forward to hopefully seeing some positive changes for the better....we can all talk ourselves into a depression......if we want to... 

  

 

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I disagree that France is better than Spain.  I drove from Pau in France to Mazarron in Murcia, all on motorways and dual carriageways and didn't pay a penny in tolls, coming via Zaragoza.  We were over 100 euros driving through France and that was down the west coast where the tolls are less.  Hotels in France are a rip-off and the restaurants are very, very expensive.  You can get a good menu of the day in Spain for 8 euros, two courses, bread and wine or beer.  No chance of getting that sort of value in France.  Also the availability of fresh fruit and veg, particularly in Murcia the garden of Spain, means that they are much cheaper to buy in the markets.  Apart from that, the wine in Spain is better!

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I have a holiday house in Spain for ten years and seen A LOT OF CHANGES I decided to put my property on the markek two months ago  I have already been offered 76% of my sale price  Should I sell it

 

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papa - only you can decide, but it may be the best offer you get for a few years!

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promedia and DonLochnagar - very good posts. I agree with both of you.

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That's not bad at al,l but I think property is selling a bit better than it was and there are cranes also in the skyline so maybe if you could hold on it may go up a little more, I have an apartment for 12 Years now and I would get what I paid for it, but I would not sell as we love going out there 5 times a Year, do you know it is one of the healtiest places in the world to live and compared with Ireland it is so cheap..........

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What Spain needs is to leave the Euro, get back to the Peseta and go back to being the sunny, good value tourist destination, it once was!  Labour costs in Spain are ridiculous.  It's now cheaper, to employ a German, than it is a Spaniard and that's ridicuous.  For many businesses in Spain though, they only have a short time, 3-4 months of decent business, so they have to make as much money in that time, as possible.  So they are in somewhat of a catch 22 position.  Many cafes and restaurants here in Puerto Mazarron, mostly Spanish owned, have not re-opened.  There are however restaurants, mostly British and Chinese that are doing a good trade with the large ex-pat population here.  So, the options are up to them.  Try and fleece a fewer number of tourists or offer value and get a decent trade, all year round.

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Well there is one post on here that I have to disagree with .. living on the coast myself i.e. Costa Blanca the bars, clubs and pubs that do most of the "ripping off" are British..go to a Spanish cafe for a cup of coffee and its normally no more than €1  a British Cafe €1.50.

Ten years ago it was always cheaper to eat out than in... the Spanish restaurants and bars took a leaf out of the British books  The saw the prices that our own were charging the holiday makers and decided to follow suit. Yes they believed then that the Brits could afford it .. that we had plenty of money..., then maybe we did... old habits have and are dying hard amongst the Spaniards they are slowly beginning to realise that those of us left behind have to be looked after because they certainly wont get it from the tourists-The Spanish supermarkets are beginning to bring their prices down and the British bars and restaurants are fighting for trade... not a bad thing in my book-  If only all the restaurants and bars had concentrated more on the locals than they did the tourists they might be in a better position than they are.today. But I have to add that for a country that is in "recession " there is still plenty of money being spent on infrastructure.. near me they are building the largest desalinisation plant in Europe (I believe) they are building a gynormous shopping mall that will house the largest Primark in Europe together with the roads and underpasses that will serve it... and not forgetting the new Airport  rep'lacing Murcia, the New Large terminal Building  at Alicante Airport (God knows what they are going  to do with the old one as the new one doesn´t serve Alicante any better) And also the "Disney Type" theme park to be built in the area.   Where is this money coming from.. ????

The worst offenders in my opinion have been the British "tradesmen" .. DIY people who have professed to be tradesmen and ripped off their fellow countrymen... (I speak from experience) the business has failed and they have had their homes reposessed .. sorry I cannot feel any sympathy.. Its hardly any wonder that  some unscrupulous Spaniards saw how vulneerable the British are when they first come to Spain .. not knowing the language they "fall for anything"... So I cant agree that the Spaniards have been totally to blame . There are so many Brits who I have come across that think Spain is England with Sunshine. They have wanted to take out of Spain but put nothing back in. I m a legalised Resident of Spain and I pay my taxes here. But I know many who dont. We would be the first to complain if "foreigners" were doing the same thing back in the UK.

I do however believe that the Spaniards are the most tenacious race I have ever come across.. they look after their own first and I have not got a problem with that. But they will respect you if you live according to their laws and culture. I wouldn´t deny either that there is corruption in this country.... but I ask the leading question  "Can you honestly say that Britain is squeeky clean..That our Government (s) no matter what their poliitical persuasion is immune to cortruption"  "pot kettle" !!!!!!!

For all its faults (and it has many as all countries do) I love Spain... I love its culture and I love the people. Their sense of pride in their country, their patriiotism, the family unity is to be envied... Something Britain had once... but no more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This message was last edited by deecoco on 05/02/2012.

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to the chap emigrating to Australia- do you not mind that you will not get any increases on your state pension there?

to the person writing that people in the campo are suffering financially-they pay only 10% of  the IBI tax we pay on an urbanisation a few miles away.

judging by the numbers of new cars i see, a lot are obviously not suffering  that much, unless they are using credit.

as for mazarron not having much traffic on the roads, when did he travel-at 2 am? just driving to the town we are met with maniacs, speeding, tail gating, no indicators, cutting up etc

 

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Deecoco, I agree with you.  i have never been ripped off here in Mazarron by a Spanish bar or restaurant although trying to find a decent one is a bit of a struggle.  I have been fleeced slightly by a Spanish builder who was recommended to me, although he quoted for each job and was only paid in stages as the various jobs were done.  He was subcontracting some of the work which I spotted immediately, but as I was new to the area I didn't mind paying something for his local knowledge.  The work was however done to my satisfaction and was much cheaper than it would have been in the UK.  I do speak reasonable Spanish and I don't know if that makes a difference.  I would have to say that I am disgusted by the lack of attempted integration in Spanish society.  The woman across from me has been here 5 years and can barely order a cup of coffee in Spanish.  Where's the money coming from?  Ultimately probably from the EU, although there is Arab money behind the new Paramount theme park, which will along with the new Corvera airport make a big difference to the Costa Calida and of course property prices.  Roll on the Euro at 1.40-1.50 to the £ound!!!!

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 This has got interesting.  First, anyone living in Dubai to avoid taxes is not going to worry about the state pension!!!!   And good for him.   I think that all people who are in a postion of a very healthy private/company pension should forego the state pension anyway (and I include myself in that).

I think on the whole, I am in agreement with deecoco - I have never felt ripped off in Spanish establishments - never paid more than a euro for a coffee UNLESS it has been in an English place.  And I feel there is a lot of truth in the stuff said about Englsh people working in Spain.  I have made my feelings known on here about tax avoidance, but what really gets up my nose is northern Europeans being paid cash in hand and charging prices which they would argue to be a good and fair rate, forgetting that they have no offtakes  from the payment.  In other words, I have more time for people who reflect the fact that they have no intention of paying taxes in their lower price.  I have paid both Spanish workers and English workers for work, where I have suspected no tax will be paid - but at least the Spanish have always lowered the price!!!   

Someone also posted that the Spanish do not take on or open businesses - that is not the case in my experience.  My son has a lot of young Spanish friends and quite a few of them have small businesses.  I think that they do not like taking on businesses which rely on the English or Northern Europeans - who are notoriously insular.

I really only know Andalucia - and I can tell you there is a determination about the people which makes me certain that Spain will get out of this mess - and I for one will be sticking with them!!      I have to confess to feeling a bit guilty as I have every intention of capitalising on the property market at the moment by buying something special which I would have hesitated to buy seven years ago. Sadly, where there is distress there will also be opportunity.  

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Bri - forego the state pension if comfortably off?-you must be joking, having paid taxes etc for 40 odd years. that state pension is a right-you could always give it to charity each month!

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Brian, Spain wouldn't be in this mess along with the other PIIGS, if everyone was paying their taxes.  I have an Argentinian friend who had  a restaurant in the Costa Blanca which he came out of last year when they put the rent up, by too much.  He made a very good living out of it.  In the 80's I went to the local cash and carry with him.  He took a trolley and gave me one as well.  When I asked him why, he told me that mine was the 'black money' trolley which he would be paying cash for and his was the official business one which he would be paying with a cheque.  Now if he's done that for the last 25 years, it's no wonder he is staying in a million Euro plus house!  I think it's everyon'e responsibilty to pay their fair dues to live in this great place.  The builder I employed had about 2.000 from me all in cash, which I suspect he won't be paying tax on, but he told me he was saving me the IVA!! 

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We have yet to start paying our local house taxes because the Town Hall is so behind on it's paperwork - and we've been up a few times asking if we can start paying - only to be sent away - and told that they'll be in touch!!!!  No doubt - in a year or two - they'll get their act together - and hit us with a huge bill - back dated for 5 or so years - as the post says - Spain would be able to provide all the services 'IF' they got their act together,  Here they have people who actually want to give them money - we have always been used to paying our way - but they don't want it YET!!!!! Plus - there are a lot of people out here who own 'holiday homes' - and they don't register at their Town Hall for a Padron -(which the town halls need to make sure there are enough doctors, postmen, bins etc)  - but they still want the services and use of bins etc. when they are here!!  They need someone to organize them and show them what to do.

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