…….But at the end of this tale of greed we need to remember this.  

The size of the shadow banking world of CDOs and CSOs is vast. Remember mortgages are a debt on a house.  That is the real wealth at the bottom.  A place for a family to live. Above that is a security. Above that a CDO. Above that CDS. Each layer further removed form the actual thing of worth.  Each layer bigger than the one upon which it sits, from which it is derived, because leverage allows each layer to be used as capital for lending out yet more debt.  By the time we get to CDS the ‘worth’ is all negative, in that the worth is realized only in the event of the ‘assets’ below it, the CDO, the security and the mortgage, all defaulting.  And yet this top layer, is also the biggest layer.

This vast top layer is the wealth of the super rich and their banks. It is what we are bailing out. It is the stuff whose value is hidden in mark to model accounting or in SIV’s off balance sheet and off shore.  It is what our nations are being bankrupted in order to save.

One bank Bank New York Mellon will serve as an example. I don’t chose BNY Mellon because they are exceptional and certainly not because I accuse them of any illegal activity what so ever.  I chose them because they are typical.  Bank of NY Mellon has a large share of the CDO trade in Ireland.  It is the market leader in fact.  

BNY Mellon has 22.3 trillion dollars under management globally.  

So my question that may sound very simplistic is, if things have got so out of hand (understatement!), why can't governments around the world act in unison to sequestrate monies held in these Banks in order to save their nation's wealth? Thereafter  complex pyramid selling of this nature is banned from the financial market place.

Well Ads,

it has taken a while but I think you have now got it.

we need a revolution with sequestration of all assets above a fixed level, no more billionaires, automatic 100% tax on capital and earnings above the level, with the citizen (the reasonable man) dominant in ALL legal proceedings.

There is no other sensible solution and "forensic accountants" whatever they may be, unnecessary.

Regards

Norman

What sort of a world are you advocating with your aberrant nonsense?

Well Woodbug........unlike you, I have taken the valuable information provided by Well and Ads seriously......just to remind you......

"Good try Woodbug. Glad to see that you still hold out some hope that the hole that Europe is in can be escaped. Well, the digging has not stopped yet.

Having seen what really happened to cause this during 20 years within the bank that the fag end of Lehman Brothers landed on and has nearly killed, I can assure you with absolute certainty that there is no solution to the economic woes that now face Europe and the World.

The reasons are:

1) All of our leaders have betrayed us for decades by preaching a perverted doctrine of false democracy bolstered by television, sport and alcohol to placate us as their “good friends” with vested interests plunder our wealth and our futures. Cock-up or conspiracy? Always conspiracy. Follow the money as Deep Throat said.

2) There are trillions of dollars of CDO and CDS bets held by the banks and hedge funds that will weigh against any reform of the system or the prospect of the little people ever getting out of under the tyranny of the super wealthy by honest means. Their game is "how low can you go" and until we are reduced to living on the street, which for many is not far off, we will not be motivated enough to act.

3) The mountains of laws, regulation and rules that are annually added to the compost heap of legislation produced by the worst of the vested interests, those who believe they govern us rather than work in our interests, are secured with the criminal principle that ignorance of the law is not a defence.

What hope do we have? Be honest, play by the rules, and . . . . you cannot possibly win. You certainly cannot afford to raise children and imbue them with honest values without the meddling of a corrupt state. Those who work and pay their way are punished by paying for the many who never had any intention of working to support themselves. Who are the dupes there? The orderly, honest parts of European society are doomed and very soon, because the powers-that-be believe they are a bottomless pit of riches for them to plunder. However this time they have not left us with enough to survive. The world will follow shortly after Europe’s collapse.

So, don’t forget where all the problems came from. The armpit of the world, New York, home of the thieves who took only fifty years of manipulation of US global governance to bankrupt the world while enriching too few, along with their greatest claimed foes, the fascists who started two world wars and the communists who benefited from them.

We lost our best and true leaders in those wars, and as a result we are doomed, because that left only the dumb bastards who plotted this and who still seem to think there is another planet to evacuate to. When the true downturn comes as the swaps and collateralised debt obligations are triggered they will find out there is not. They will also find out that there are a hell of a lot of us and we are more than a little pissed off. If we don’t know where they live we will find out, because they sure like to flaunt it while mocking us, and the most stupid and corrupt of the dummies Blair and Bush demonstrated to us that their armies could not beat a primitive insurgency. How are they going to stop the destitute middle classes? Mayhem will ensue, hey, it has already started, but worse will quite possibly happen sooner than expected, when the Eurocrats are on their summer holidays in the next few weeks."

clearly your suggestions are meaninglessly inadequate in the scale of the problem, sorry no offence, but as the man says "good try" but we haven't got to the bottom of the hole yet.

as to your insults they are just meaningless hot air and have all been tried before, but no offence, whatever massages your ego.

Regards

Norman

Woodbug, please keep the educational debate going and let's remove any personal slants (Norman) that only detract from an important topic which require comprehension and calm and rational debate.

Whilst the rhetoric is getting a little strident, it's good to see people attempting to address what has become an irredeamable situation.  Woodbug has advanced some ideas that in a world where one could count on leadership and moral integrity, could get us out of a situation where the pendulum has swung possibly too far towards the corrupt and morally repugnant.  I always like to read normansands, because he is usually 'on the button' with his thoughts and I find that this time I agree with his analysis of the situation, even if it makes unpleasant reading.

Unfortunately, we are talking about anarchy and whilst, like the French revolution, it may immediately claim the heads of the elite, in the end, the strong takeover and make the plight of the weak even worse.  There are some signs of a revolution amongs ordinary folk in many nations, but their actions only hurt the poor, never the rich and whether we like it or not, the politicians are so deep in the pockets of the multinationals that they can't get out and I don't think the pendulum will ever swing back.  This is a worldwide issue, not confined to Europe and the big nations have the biggest guns.

What is my solution?  In my 70th year, I no longer have the temerity to think that I know any of the answers, only a crystal clear hindsight of the problems.  Whatever the solution, it won't bring any succor to the little people and the world is now too international for a single hero (or heroine) to ride to our rescue.  Woodbug's solution won't change to corruption and self interest that is rotting the core of society and although normansands solution may be immediately attractive and destroy the rich elite, a new, corrupt system will simply spring from the vacuum left by their passing.

Anyway, that's my opinion, I hope you enjoy it!!

Thanks Xetog.

All the more reason for the voting public to demand enforceable constraints via workable disincentives on those intent on corruption and self gain, to a scale that has now been proven to decimate nations. De-regulation and a staggering lack of supervision(or turning of blind eyes) has inevitably fuelled the problem, so it's hardly surprising that these morally repugnant financial scams have reared their ugly heads.

Never under-estimate the power of the people however, but I just hope that major reform such as advocated by Woodbug, can be organised and controlled in a positive way that doesn't allow others with equally morally repugnant intentions to step in and ruin an opportunity to rid the financial industry of self interested and manipulative "thieves".

Why do you think that voting changes anything ads?  I must admit that I once thought it so, but repeated disappointment has taught me that the rich and powerful win, whatever the voters say.  Mandates are just produced to fed hope to the masses with promises made to be broken as soon as expedient.  Laws are made by the rich, for the rich (and the lawyers).  The lobby and whip systems are designed to ensure that politicians toe the line and see that big business gets just what it wants.  If the multinationals wanted us out of the EU, it would have been done long ago.  The same goes for the human rights act and many other international agreements.  My experience of the world has led me to become a cynic I am afraid, but although bitterly disappointed at what my country has become, at least I can see what it is with clear vision.

I do understand your cynicism Xetog but how do you explain then how the power of the people via the likes of campaign group 38degrees or AVAAZ,  have been effective in gaining some multinationals to change course - all we have to do is stop buying their products on a global scale....... couldn't the same be done with those Banks who refuse to conform (withdraw our monies from their Banks), or with politicians who fail to listen and respond to their constituents concerns (name and shame) etc etc. Responsible and trustworthy organisations such as those above are an incredibly powerful tool to educate Jo public and apply pressure by regaining control on a much wider scale than was possible before...... I still live in hope Xetog.

 p.s. Are you still there Woodbug..... any more ideas?

We all know by now that this Global recession has been brought about by greedy bank officials who used corrupt methods (still ongoing) to make themselves mega bucks using other folks' (ours!) cash and who have the politicians 'in the palm of their hands'.

However, suppose we wanted to stop using the banking system to organise our financial credits and debits, which other system is in place to allow us to do this?  How would we recieve our wages/pensions?  How would we pay our utility bills?  When I looked into this, I was told there would be a charge for paying my electricity/gas bill with cash! What's that all about?  If anyone out there has another, foolproof, way that I can organise my finances, please let me know.  I HATE our banking system.  Over many years, the banks have systematically put in place ways to ensure we need to use them to run our finances.

On the news this morning, I watched a debate concerning the austerity measures Rajoy is insisting on for Spain and it was scarey viewing.  I have total sympathy with the Spanish people who feel they cannot cope with any more cuts in their wages/jobs and, on the other hand, we are told that the Spanish banks are going to start going down 'big time' if they don't get their funding.  OMG...can you imagine the scenario if this was the case?  We are continually informed that everything up to 100,000 euros would be returned to us if our bank collapsed but, seriously, do you really believe that?  We don't actually see the cash that we have in a bank unless we remove it in notes.  It's only figures on a page or screen.  How easy would it be for these figures to disappear never to be found?  Would the piece of paper we have with the figures on it be enough to prove we had the money?

Do I need to start taking tablets?????

I don't think the public have any conception as to the scale of this problem..........they need to see this video http://www.documentarywire.com/inside-job and believe that they can make their voices heard, but the problem is that until they comprehend and make the connection that this is already impacting their lives BIG TIME, then there will be little uptake of your suggestion Johnzx.

Education as to the realities and making that connection to the cause is the starting point.......

Just seen your posting Maddiemack- good question.

If everyone transferred their monies to responsible Banks (those who can prove that they are not gambling with our monies) then this would act as an incentive for others to follow , would it not? A more ethical benchmark.....
In the interim it's essential to keep the pressure on politicians (as per Johnzx's post) to demand better monitoring (consistent monitoring) and enforcement of regulation and other measures that will ensure these pyramidal scams are eradicated from the financial system, 

This message was last edited by ads on 21/07/2012.

Dear All,

Ads could be right in that the internet may be a benefit to us, don't they say that the "Arab Spring" would not have occurred without it?

I used John's suggestion when I emailed my mp, Sir Roger Gale to try to get a proper public enquiry insteadof the "limited" mp one recently.

His response was to dismiss it as unnecessary, but at least I got a response.

He is known locally as an elder statesman run of the mill mp, except for that timeserving in the party system I know of no reason he should be sir anything. Local cynic rumour has it that he has been taking his family holidays for all those years in Africa with all his family at our expense - fact finding endlessly repeated, but most necessary of course. In short he has been at the trough for a long time and will have a gold-plated pension no doubt.

But to return specifically to Spain, Smiley and his spanish law professor have told us that there is no independent judiciary in Spain and the government in every shape or form is above the law and will remain so, in addition they will ignore all eu law whatever treaties they sign. These wonderful friendly people are by nature and tradition totally selfish in that regard. Spain must come first in all things, no question.

They have no problem with that and will not change so they are doomed to be abandoned at some stage, again no question.

We may dream of change but it will never come until we jail the culprits.

Surely we all recognise now that we have been conned with this "too big to fail " nonsense and we surely will not accept the latest "we accept responsibility but you cannot jail us and we will not resign because you need us to put things right".

Just how many cons will we suffer before we revolt.

I am keen on the bank replacement idea, the Co-op may have taken over my branch here but where should my few Spanish euros go?

Regards

Norman

 In my years of experience the banks, governments, mega rich, etc etc rely on not only the British reserve, and wanting never to complain, but to "put up with it".  The Spanish peoples appear to be the same. The majority of the publics' do not want to be involved and are happy to "let others sort it out" Look at a traffice accident, hundreds want to rubber neck, few want to dive in and help.

One of the few exceptions I can think of was when British people moved en bloc to take all their money from Northern Rock causing serious embarressment to Brown and his very poor Government.

Sadly all the positive moves previously mentioned of which the majority are very laudable, will not happen. Burocracy is cumbersome and very wealdy, as we have found out with trying to get rid of the hundreds of quangos in the UK. It will take years to change, if at all!

The poor old public will as always have to pay, remember the UK started two years ago when our austerity plans were started, increased VAT, local council cutbacks, refusal of pay increases companies allowed to go to the wall, High St Shops such as Woolworths, we all know them.

This message was last edited by gerrryuk on 21/07/2012.

Here is one guy who has made a difference:

http://www.burnleyexpress.net/news/business-news/bank-of-dave-a-hit-with-millions-of-tv-viewers-1-4760544

A do-oer not a talker!

Woodbug

Dear All,

mutual benefit in practice, underwritten by a millionaire, great.

The widows get 5% on their mites, the man lends to his customers at some 5% plus rate, thumb their noses at the useless banks we have created and supported mistakenly, wages but no bonuses paid, they buy from him and all benefit - business as it should be - almost like the good old days when you knew your bank manager personally and could actually meet and talk business with him.

My son had a similar idea but did not have the million to start with - why isn't Vince Cable rolling it out nation wide?

Who could be stopping him I wonder?

Why isn't my local chamber of commerce at it?

Nevertheless thanks for the info and thanks to the forum.

I will join if you will.

Regards

Norman

Love it Woodbug...... fantastic local concept (so long as it's closely monitored and has the correct protection in place- we don't need any more con-men thank you! )

well, I don't know what others think, but I find it bl**** depressing.

If we can't get our own politicians to behave, excepting a slight lapse when faced with not one, but two pairs of gorgeous female legs, then what possible hope or dream can there be of persuading Spain or any of the EU to discipline their lot.

Sorry Ads it is a non- starter.

But thanks for the info - is it posted nation wide?

Regards

Norman