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and only a rebellion by the plebicite will have a chance of changing it
and every time the suggestion of rebellion to instill Sanity, transparency and honesty into the system is mooted, those who bemoan the situation sit by and watch it happen and state " It is what capitalism is and aways will be .....get over it. "
So the solution to accept the status quo and never do anything proactive to change the realities proves a brilliant way of supporting those who run the "dispicable ponsi scheme ".........
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As far as I am concerned I am very glad of the present system and long may it live. It has done may family very well over the generations. I assure you that the present situation will not change in any of our life times, the control of the elite and the old boy network is alive and getting stronger.
Capitalism and ilitism although lumped together my the majority of the prolariat as they are too lazy to find out how things in the real world work are in fact two distinct states that do come together some times for mutual benefit. The elite are able to manipulate capitalism for there own benefit, trust me it works very well and is ruthlessly guarded.
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Shiny happy people - where?
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There will never be a rebellion by the "plebs" as you condescendingly call them (& I assure you I am not a "pleb") beacause of the apathetic state of the Western people.
Their has only been one revolution in Europe to my recollection, that of the French a couple of hundred years ago & that started as a small thing that escalated & got out of hand. I do not class Russia, USA or the Middle East as the Western World
Yea there was a riot (quite different to a rebellion), in England in 2011 but it was never allowed to get out of hand or the military would have been called in.
This mess will be sorted by the "Capitalists & Ellitists" EVENTUALLY with again the advantage with them as is always the case but the non rich will suffer without discrimination.
Any credit card used wihout forethought until it is maxed out has to be repaid, the "credit card" in the case of Spain amounts into Billions maybe going to Trillions, just the interest is unsumountable.
So sad, so sad I am appalled at this sorry state, if I had the Trillions I would gladly pay it but make them leave the EU as the UK should.
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Do unto others as you would want them to do to you.
I am always willing to talk and converse to ladies or gents in a sensible way.
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Plebe, plebeiane, is not a condescending term, I suggest you are showing your ignorance of the English language. If you take offence I am deeply sorry. ROFL
The plebs were the general body of free land-owning Roman citizens (as distinguished from slaves and the capite censi) in Ancient Rome. They were the non-aristocratic class of Rome, and consisted of freed people, shopkeepers, crafts people, skilled or unskilled workers and farmers[1]. Members of the plebs were also distinct from the higher order of the patricians. A member of the plebs was known as a plebeian ( /plɨˈbiːən/; Latin: plebeius). This term is used today to refer to one who is or appears to be of the middle or lower order; however, in Rome plebeians could become quite wealthy and influential.
Early public schools in the United Kingdom would enroll pupils as "plebeians" as opposed to sons of gentry and aristocrats.
Plebes may refer to freshmen at the U.S. Military Academy, U.S. Naval Academy, Valley Forge Military Academy, the Marine Military Academy, the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy, Georgia Military College, California Maritime Academy and the Philippine Military Academy.
If you had bothered to read and understand my previuos posts you would see that my use of words is correct in the situation where they are used and in no way condescending. If you do not like it tough titty, don't read my posts. For the arguement for or against elitism these words are most relevant.
I suggest some research before posting so your posts make a modicum of sense. The UK and Spain cannot be compared when you are talking out debt, I do not have the time or the inclination to educate you on this. The UK is in a far worse state than Spain or Italy the only difference being the UK can and does print unlimited amounts of electronic money, this means the next generations will be paying off the capital and interest through their taxes. All money in a FIAT (No this is not a car) curency is debt and all created money is privately owned. Every pound that is put into the economy bears interest payed for by the tax paying public. The bigest problem with this system is the devaluation of the currencies worth by inflation, every year the plebeians are worse off whilst the elite rake in the taxes, and then buy up all assets at bagain basement prices.
The trick is not to be a Plebe.
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Shiny happy people - where?
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It’s so very simple to recite press rhetoric concerning the unequal balance between rich and poor and even easier to post sweeping statements concerning property ‘investors’ without any evidence except hearsay reported in the press by authors who rarely leave their desks.
There appears to be a great deal of confusion between investors and speculators.
Property investors come in many different guises and on several different levels and must not be treated as Pariahs who can secure deals that others can’t – this is called business and most of these organizations have professionally qualified personnel highly skilled in evaluating and acquiring assets.
Some will invest client’s money for return – nothing wrong with that and some will buy and sell to others who are in a key market and several more will buy for their own portfolio. Whilst home buy to let was once the most popular, new investment opportunities have proved to be a great attraction and one such scheme as an example, has been the new-build hotel room innovation.
A speculator will look for a development deal to show a profit between a land value (this includes abandoned or part built sites) and a finish project or a turned deal (sell on). This can also include completed buildings that can be converted for other uses and generate a rental income, or can be sold to an investment company with income.
I can assure you that very few of these organizations would get involved in any kind of underhand deals that it appears some on this forum consider a common activity and most would not be remotely interested in bank repo life-style villas in Marbella or any other areas for that matter.
These people are the ones we need to attract to Spain as they have huge sums of money to invest including their own, portfolio clients, pension funds and partner investment bank capital. You would be amazed at the way they structure and put deals together and if they do manage to open doors that normally remain closed to us – the public, it’s because they know their jobs and in most cases the subject investment is way out of our league anyway.
Most investors and speculators will not deal through a third party or if they do they insist on a non-disclosure, or client confidentiality agreement before any negotiations take place and if a deal has been ‘around’ or ‘has a story’ they would not even consider it.
We need to attract investment into Spain and its hard enough as it is without all the weary-willies and their negative misguided assumptions concerning a very wealthy sector of the construction industry.
As a footnote I think that I-Love-Javia is being very generous when claiming only 97% of Spanish properties are sub-standard it is more 100%. None of the Spanish traditional buildings would ever get past the DPC in UK ……….. Even if they had them!
Woodbug (Still trying to make a difference)
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Yes because standards are so very high in the uk!!! We are building property SO small that on average it is acknowledged as being the smallest in Europe, and not providing enough space per individual. The standard of plumbing in the new build flats chucked up in the boom is SO poor that ceilings coming down and flooding is the norm.
As I have already said, the problems arise when everyone becomes investors or property speculators without realising that is what they are doing!! Trying to make a quick buck out of property is speculation, and it fuelled crap building and too much of it.
I love whatever may be patronising but basically correct. The standard of living - even for the so called poor - in the west has improved so much over 30 years that we have lost touch with reality. We expect property to make us rich etc etc. What we have at the moment is a reality check, and not the end of the world.
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I agree that many have (and still remain) ignorant of the whole picture, and by that I do not mean in any condescending way since much of the complex financial detail has been intentionally hidden from view by the self interested "intellectuals" within the financial industry, but IMHO it is the extent to which the rich man/woman or institutions/banks etc turn their back on theft and corruption on such a grand scale, and demonstrate so little concern for the effects on their fellow man that beggars belief. All the more reason for workable regulatory contraints.
Those with wealth persay are not to be despised by any means, but those who choose to turn a blind eye and fail to control corruption/theft without any recognition for regulatory constraints, do civilised society great harm. Do not forget that it is in the interests of "selfish intellectuals" to suggest that citizens have no power in this equation, but there is a balance to be found for those willing to support or strive for civilised constraints.
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Total IDIOT ............. you are relating two different criteria Plebs as related to Plebe.
I suggest I have much less intelligent than you like to think. Egoism is so prevalent.
. If you have not lived in the UK for 26 years what right do you have in even considering talkng about England? Go back & crawl back under the stone from whence you came in Spain.
_______________________
Do unto others as you would want them to do to you.
I am always willing to talk and converse to ladies or gents in a sensible way.
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Another great post, woodbug, which offers some hope and a possible way forward for Spain....IF changes are made ie; stricter controls (actually adhered to) concerning new-builds and a tightening-up of the legal system to get rid of most of the corruption (it will always be with us to some degree). Unfortunately, too many of us bought (literally) into this system either knowing it was foul and not caring as there was money to be made....or trusting it to be good and true and losing our investments.
Apparently, there are a few developers in Spain at the moment whose new-builds are being classed as 'quality'. For example, Taylor Whimpey, whose properties are selling well at the moment wherever they're being built...or so we're told. There must be other good, Spanish, developers out there that are also building quality property, surely? We've told that building is still going on in some small measure.
Has Spain learnt any lessons from the thousands of unsold, unwanted, badly-built apartment blocks/housing developments scattering the costas like blots on an, otherwise, pleasant landscape? At some point in the future, many of the most-badly-built blocks will either collapse or have to be pulled down. It is true that many building companies/small builders have made an enormous amount of money until the present crisis took hold but many more have lost a great deal, too.
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"At some point in the future, many of the most-badly-built blocks will either collapse or have to be pulled down. " and without legal recourse via enforceable compensation structures in place to protect those living within these blocks then the strong message buyer beware stands. Likwise for those subjected to Costa Ley laws where the Government retrospectively moved the goal posts thus blighting their future values. What next I wonder? A system that fails to adequately respond to this lack of consumer protection by continuing to deny or enforce timely justice will need to swiftly reform if it wishes to re-establish trust in its real estate industry.
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I have to agree with you 100% Roly – Many people see it as their right to have 2 cars a 7m flat screen telly (or whatever size they are) get divorced when they get fed up with each other and expect society to pay for their child care so they can go to work and earn money for a luxury lifestyle. When the bubble bursts they then demand state support, so it stands to reason that when they don’t make a profit – or worse fall into negative equity with their property, the cry goes up ‘Something should be done’
It’s always the same……….. if a commercial investor loses out – they take the hit. When a greedy private investor hits the buffers – they demand that the government ‘do something’ to protect their money.
Nobody made them gamble their hard-earned and what would happen if every punter fell out of the bookies or the casino demanding that 'something' be done about their losses?
With reference to your point about UK building standards being high – they should all be similar in the EU.
On April 1st 2010 the Eurocode was finally adopted after 37 years of preparation and European input which is supposed to harmonize construction throughout Europe. It is a highly complex piece of legislation covering many aspects of construction. building and geotec design, earthquake resistance are just a fraction of its contents and it also incorporates the Construction Products Directive.
But as usual when the EU blue spangled banner is hoisted up the pole, Spain, Portugal and others don’t stand to attention and salute. So despite millions of pounds and euros spent on harmonizing construction in Europe it hasn’t happened and Iberia continues to ‘build’ with sub-standard materials and ancient methods of construction that should have been consigned to the history books decades ago.
One reason why living units in Spain are so small is because the average wage in Spain only allows a mortgage that will buy on average a 56m2 unit based on the regional m2 cost index, due the still over-inflated property prices. Last year for instance, there were only two areas in Spain (Castilla la Mancha and Extrmadura) where a Spanish worker/family could afford anything larger. It's OK for us Brits to moan about our lot here but please spare a thought for the young Spanish desperately seeking employment and affordable housing.
Woodbug
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Dear All,
the trouble with complexity is that it is difficult for ordinary joe to understand and if he makes enquiry of local officials he soon realises that they do not understand it either, since they are rather like him, ordinary joes, so they call in the local independent freelance expert, lo and behold he is not yet up to date on this new way of doing things and so it goes on until it is disregarded.
Ego even intrudes and some will pretend they understand and give daft instructions which often get passed on as gospel and followed slavishly.
Hopefully someone somewhere has written a book, a whole book to explain the regs,' one may even find it as free info on line somewhere.
Perhaps in a century or so it will become established and followed if it hasn't been totally rewritten.
Simple stuff for simple joe in simple language is what is required and then perhaps it will be followed and even properly regulated upon.
We live in hope as before but all crap should be demolished and not sold on to the unsuspecting because its decoration is currently OK.
Regards
Norman
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N. Sands
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The strange thing is Norman, that most Brits (and many others) buy property in Spain without an inspection of any kind. The banks historically only wanted a property valuation to grant a mortgage, which we now know were an absolute waste of time, so thousands of cleverly disguised shoddy and defective properties have passed hands. Would an expat buy a house in the UK without a structural survey and would a bank lend on an outdated valuation that has no benchmark or comparisons in the area? I think not -so why do it here?
Always ask someone who knows the job to discover and point out the defects to you before you buy and then you can decide if it’s a worthwhile punt. There are some Brit chartered surveyors in Spain, exactly the same as you would engage in the UK, and they will undertake a full structural for you, although most defects on Spanish builds are pretty obvious to the experienced.
As I have advocated before on this forum, here is an idea to get things moving.
· Government swaps bank held property (apartment and housing estate) projects for the bail-out money.
· Government creates a bank of skilled and non-skilled currently unemployed building workers to convert/finish the projects
and then rents them as social housing.
· The rental income pays the wages of the direct works labour force and they maintain and restore all buildings owned or
occupied by the local authority and government. The direct works is also for hire by the public for property restoration/repair
and maintenance
.
Result:
· Banks reduce their debts.
· Property is brought back into use.
· Unemployment reduces
· Shortage of housing resolved
· Local authorities generate income from rents and the labour force
Simples!
Woodbug
This message was last edited by Woodbug on 12/08/2012.
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Thank you Woodbug and mostly I agree but.............there is always a but with Norman I fear......
you seem to impart a desire to worship at the feet of various experts be it forensic accountants, lawyers, surveyors or what have you
apart from being an ordinary joe and proud of it, I suppose you might perhaps consider me a "forensic" engineer since much of my work has been reporting on distressed buildings and structures
I am afraid a lot of that work has been checking on chartered surveors and the "faults" they highlight, some even nowadays describe themselves as "building pathologists".
I am afraid I have yet to see a "full structural survey" by such people as worthwhile, most of them do not exhibit sufficient building construction knowledge to attempt such a task.
But there again nor could I, without some damage to the building being examined.
Therefore, as in most aspects of life, some trust is necessary in all transactions, as I often point out to clients who I encourage to join me on surveys - I do not have Xray eyes and I know of no one who has, so my opinion is based on what I can see and what information has been provided.
Not satisfactory, I know but without damage the best I can do.
Nevertheless without unnecessary paperwork I am very cheap, though often forced to greater expense and paperwork for insurance companies, building societies, local authorities etc.
Therefore I stand by the claim that much of what Spain has built should be demolished, but of course if challenged and financed I could repair most things.
Regards
Norman
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N. Sands
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Woodbug, I totally agree, and it would be a win-win situation. I'd love to see it happen, not that I hold out much hope!
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Why are Estate Agents still charging high commission charges, on the Costa Del Sol, anyway? Is it not them that are deflating house prices because they are greedy and want quick sales???
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Woodbug - my main problem with my house in Spain is the lack of insulation. Any suggestions?
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I live in Ciudad Quesada near Rojales in the Alicante region. It is a purpose built suburb but not an Urbanisation. There are a wide mix of homes from apartments to villas at varying prices up to 500K€. The roads are wide and quiet and there are good views of the salt lakes. The cost of land per square metre in this area is the highest on the Costa Blanca. Two bed villas with pool and up to 1000 sq mts of land have been on sale for a year or more at prices of 225K€ and still no viewings. We do not pay urbanisation fees, only a very low Suma bill, or do we have to put up with noisy neighbours and holidaymakers who do not care and think because they are on holiday it is ok to make a noise. Their children defacate in the pool which has to be closed for 48 hours. We have a 3 bed 3 bath villa with 500 sq mts of land, fruit trees, private pool and are 10 minutes from Guardamar and La Mata beaches. We have decided to sell as we want to move to France. The local agents have come up with silly prices quoting the same old line that nothing is selling and you have to sell cheap. They are correct nothing is selling because buyers are under the impression they can get something for nothing. Is it because Spanish banks do not have the funds to lend? Or they are expecting the proverbial bargain which does not exist? Or is it because the media and the agents are brain washing buyers into thinking they can buy at vastly reduced prices? You get what you pay for in this world. Agents seem to think it is ok to charge anything up to 5% commission. On a 300K property the commission plus the fees can add on 25K to the price. A purchaser will never get this back. The nail in the coffin is the agents commission and the various fees charged on the sale. I am of the opinion that If properties are not selling at cut prices then put them up. They will eventually sell when people realise that the bargain isn't there anymore. Be prepared to sit it out and not to panic. I guarantee it will take just as long to sell at a high price as a low one. I am therefore marketing my villa at a price it should sell at in normal conditions. Why? Because I do believe the eventual purchaser will realise he has a quality home and worth every Euro he paid for it. Needless to say I am not using agents.
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Another interesting post started by Woodbug and good contributors as well. Some very funny and some true but sad. Seems to me before buying in Spain one should have a structural engineers report along with the structural survey on new properties. And Woodbug your bang on the money comparing Spain with the celtic tiger, same story different country and, for this reason I personally believe Spain has a way to go yet in property prices slump. It's taken Ireland approximately 12 years to reach this dire situation of property price slump. I was laughing so much here gerry did u infer you are thicker than Javea? Someone said Taylor Wimpey have a good rep in Spain hmmmm we can only hope that the Taylor of Taylor Woodrow have more of a say in building practices than Wimpey! !!!!!!!! Funny ole world isn't it? I didn't hear any Brits complaining when they were swarming to Spain over the last 20 years or more pushing up prices, and causing these massive inflation of prices. For us it was a no brainer not to buy in Spain, just in case we didn't like it, as we could see history repeating itself, and we would have lost out had we wanted to return to the UK. Had we decided to live there permanently of course if would have been a different story. And the idea to knock down all the crap is a good one, then perhaps we would see a shortage of properties in our lifetime and property prices perhaps stabilising. Woodbug your suggestion is a good one, but this is a socialisr answer and the problem with this is that all governments seem to be backing away from any social responsibility, with the desire of privatising all practical services. Javea what your say is absolutely true in many respects, but real investors haven't been interested in Spain for sometime. Well not those in the UK anyway. UK investors look further afield at places like Brazil and also London. London, and not just Belgravia or Knightsbridge is sound as prices all over central London continue to rise. I personally do not have a problem with the fact that we have all killed the goose that laid the golden egg, and that has had an effect on everyone, rich and poor and even the plebs roflmao.
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If I shine too brightly, then put your sunglasses on oy vey
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Whilst I agree with a lot that has been said in this thread, there's one very valid point I haven't noticed being made? Indeed, when clients come into our office wanting to list their property for sale and ask what the value may be, all we can say is "it's worth what someone is willing to offer and you're willing to accept" However, everyone, buyers and sellers alike, seem to get bogged down with the perceived value of a property and forgetting that there is also an intrinsic value in the "right" property. If a buyer falls in love with a property, can afford the asking price, wants to enjoy use of the property for years to come and isn't looking to "flip" it for a quick buck, why should an owner be expected to drop their pants and.........well, you get the picture. As with most things in life, a bit of honesty, integrity and common sense would see a lot more properties sold to everyone's mutual benefit!
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