Is Now The Time to Buy or Sell ??

 I reside in a small residencial community, all spanish. It is highly recommendable  if you have young children, and the communal area is a great place for them to socialise with the other kids safely. However I've been here for over 15 years and if I didn't have kids I would be living in a villa or a town house, away from community issues/charges and nonsense. Nightmare! There's always someone who wants to make peoples' lives difficult. As I am not in favour of expat communities, as I think it goes against the whole reason one moves to another country, I could never advise you on costal resorts or large property developments in expat areas. If you want to live the Spanish life find a small town/ village / near to a larger town or City. The novelty will soon wear off and you'll eventually want something to do from time to time and only a city or large town can really offer that. That way you have the best of both worlds. Lazy country Spanish life with city life at a stone's throw away. Community living is not all that it's cracked up to be, unless you find one that is completely sold up/rented out and is perfectly maintained, you might be in with a chance, but yes there is a lot of coming and going. With the crisis I have noticed it in my residencial community in Valencia (all Spanish) as many owners started renting out so every now and again the place is flooded with strangers when it was a lovely community before, with neighbours summer dinners in the Social club etc great atmosphere. That has all gone now and you don't know who lives on the other side of the pool. There are many ways to meet people, and load of health spa's and clubs around, so there's no need to miss out on anything by going to a village or a town house.

 We live on a residential community.  We have had property in Spain for nearly 12 years now and believe we have picked the ideal spot.  Our first place was on a very much expat community in a holiday area.  The bars/restaurants etc were all geared to holiday makers and it was great for holidays and a couple of weeks visits.  It was, however, one of the poorly built places but, at the time,  was cheap and it was also great for chilling out.  I would not have liked to live there permanently, however.

We spent years looking around.  Looking at villas behind high walls, little villages in the middle of Spanish areas, larger villages with and without expats, communities of urbanisations near beaches and in the mountains.

We eventually picked a fairly large community about 10 minutes from the sea.  It is a lovely, well-built and extremely comfortable family home.  Large enough for when we have visitors with 3 bedrooms but just right for the two of us most of the year.  We have all nationalities around us and get on very well.  The president at the moment is Dutch with a committee composed of British, Norwegian, Spanish and Russian.  Never any problems.  There are 5 pools and lovely communal gardens with none of the hassle of maintenance as it is all done for us.  It is not a holiday complex with shops and amenities etc but a very residential area and quite a few permanent residents.  The community fees are reasonable and we would probably have had to pay the same to maintain our own swimming pool for the cost without the benefits.  The builders are well-established, permanent and have their offices just up the road.  They are very helpful if anything does go wrong (it hasn't to us, touch wood).  

We have all types of bars and restaurants within walking distance but far enough away not to be annoyed by the noise.  Supermarkets just down the road, a brand new medical centre close by and, what really makes it, some lovely neighbours of several nationalities including Spanish.  There are a couple of smaller shops around we walk to for milk, bread etc. and hairdressers, newsagents and so on. We have a large front garden and a smaller rear garden which are fantastic for sitting out and the porch and balcony are great for sitting and watching the world go by.  The house is not cold in the winter nor too hot in the summer but just right but I think that is more down to the quality of build.  We aren't great beach lovers but it is only 10 minutes drive to some lovely ones.  There are large and small markets nearby and very close to the motorway (2km) to get anywhere we like very quickly.  It is lovely and peaceful, not quiet, most of the year with just July and August being busy but we decided against one right next to the pool area precisely for that reason.

We feel we have the best of both worlds but, my goodness, it took a lot of looking around to find it.  

The town is a short walk away and is always a hub of activity.  Restaurants come and go but the good ones continue.  Yes, there are "Brit" bars but easily avoidable with many Spanish bars dotted around.  

We have now been here for nearly 5 years and permanently for just under a year but we were coming over for about 6 months a year in the last couple of years.  Sorry, but we wouldn't move now for anything.  It's great, the garden is now becoming established and we seem to have fantastic weather all the time.  More and more permanent residents with only one moving back in the time we have been here but many more planning to move over when circumstances permit.  I speak Spanish (ex Civil Service Linguist) but my wife doesn't although she is learning and can now understand quite a lot.  

Time to buy or sell?  Property on our community have not fallen in price as the builders refuse to lower the prices as they don't think it would be fair to those who bought at the "top" but they are still being sold, mainly to Russians and Scandinavians I must admit but that is probably due to the obvious quality after looking at many other places. 2 bed town houses in our previous area were going for €120,000 when we bought in 2001, €160,000 some 5 years ago but are now going for around €75,000.  Flats at €106,000 in 2001, €135,000 in 2006 and now being sold below €60,000.  

So look around, everyone is individual and have different requirements.  

As we have just sold our apartment in Spain within the last week or so, thought my input might be useful.

Our apartment had been on the market for 3 yrs and we had gradually reduced the price to about half its original value.   We used an agent in Torrevieja although we were based in Algorfa and he eventually sold it through another local agent but we only paid one commission !   We originally put it on the market at a price for similarly priced equivalent apartments, theirs were not selling so neither did ours.   Then 2 yrs later we decided we had to be realistic and drop the price to a level where it would sell.   The agent notified us he had a buyer but after having reduced our price from 79,950 (having bought in 2004 at 91,340 euros) we had now reduced the price with him 49,950 and he said the buyer only wanted to pay 40,000.   However I had spoken to another local estate agent who sold on our development and he advised that we should stick to our guns and not walk away with a penny less than 40,000 after the agent's commission, he said this was a realistic price and achievable so that is what we did.   Our own agent was reluctant to push the buyer but we told him we had little to lose after having already lost 50% of the purchase price, so he agreed to try to push the price up and it worked.  

We sold because we believe the prices have further to fall and we wanted to pull out of the property market on Costa Blanca as our daughter is moving to CDS and we may want to now move there instead, besides we had decided that we did not want to retire there but wanted it as an investment (poor decision ), anyway I have seen people on our development with solariums and parking spaces in the basement (which we did not have) sell for less than us due to desperation (one lost 2/3rds of his investment as he had ill health and wanted to return to the UK).   By the way we compared to others on our development being sold by the banks for 40,000 which were unfurnished and basic, ours was fully furnished with white goods and air con etc.

My advice is to be realistic, if there are other similar properties selling at far less than you want, how will you get a buyer?   You have to take the hit if you want out which is what we did.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do !

jwhite your post was very depressing; it might be ok for those who have property in UK , or are wealthy to sell at rock bottom prices, but what happens to those needing to buy a property in the UK with the proceeds of their house in Spain-it's soul destroying, and not helped by the sanctimonious posts of those who are in Shangri La, aka Spain, and are "all right, Jack"!( not you. jwhite!)

Hi Camposol

I know how you feel, I have a brother who is desperate to sell his villa in Spain as he has an interest only mortgage on his house in the UK and can never now pay it off due to how low his villa has fallen in value so he is now in a position where very shortly (he is due to retire in a few years so cannot wait for prices in spain to increase much longer), he will have to get shot of his villa and his 5 bedroomed house house and won't be left with enough to buy even a decent apartment in the UK.   Also after posting a question about the sales process on another thread, a lady PM'd me a private message to ask who I sold through as she was desperate to leave Spain after having lost her husband soon after buying a house in Spain and left her with two young children.   She cannot sell even after reducing her house by over 50% !!   She also is left with no option of buying if she manages to sell and return to the UK but will  have to rent.

I suppose we did just one thing right in our lives by not selling our house in the UK even though we had an £80,000 mortgage on it to help buy our apartment in Spain.    We decided to sell the house and downsize to a OAP bungalow 2/3rd the price of our house, in order to keep the apartment in Spain and retain a base in the UK but paying off our mortgage which we had to do as we were retiring on state pensions.   We thought that maybe the prices would improve in Spain and we could keep both but as time has gone on they have only fallen further and I keep reading reports from people in the property business (estate agents and developers), who say they will fall further.  

We have bitten the bullet and taken the painful decision of getting out whilst we still can, bearing in mind we have been left with less than £30,000 sterling after exchange rates whereas we have paid out for our apartment in Spain to buy it, 91340 euros in 2004, plus 11% legal costs (not really countable I know, but money we still laid out to purchase it), plus costs of furniture, air con and fitted wardrobes, all in all we laid out £76,000 sterling and have got back less than £30,000 as I say but sometimes it is a matter of making the hard decisions.

I feel sorry for people who are trapped in Spain and we had neighbours that were unhappy with their purchase on our development and would have settled for just moving to another property but could not afford it, so there are millions that have lost out in this property disaster (not forgetting people who have lost out in the UK), we also lost £12,500 on our house in the Uk selling it to downsize as even here people are offering silly amounts to try to grab a bargain and we ran out of time waiting for a buyer who would offer us a decent price.

All I am saying is that it is depressing but you can't bury your head in the sand and pretend it isn't and hastened happened to millions of other people.   If you could put a figure on how much money people have lost on property, shares, savings, antiques etc. during the world recession, I reckon it would be enough to buy a few countries including American, China and the UK !!!!

Hi JWhite,

Very sorry to hear your story but great of you to share with us !

Take care,

Harry

Hi JWhite

You've got the right attitude; sometimes in life you have to be philosophical or you'll do your head in.  We've lost a fortune over the years in various ways and sometimes you just have to let it go.  I was glad we never had bank shares - I remember them plummeting 90%.  There's always someone worse off.  And other things are more important than money - your health and your family's health, in particular.  I presume the people who bought your place for a ridiculously low amount are rubbing their hands in glee, but I pity them and their 'bargain.'  I've found that no good comes to people with that kind of attitude.  All the best.

 It is important to remember  that it is not just property that has gone down in value, but a whole range of investments and I am glad to see you acknowledge that.  You are also right about the property prices in the UK which are 30% down if you take inflation into account (and obviously outside London).    BUT, as been said many times, property - especially  property out of your native country, is really to live in or holiday in,  and is always speculative in terms of selling prices.  If you think of it in these terms the people who lost out are the ones who simply want to leave Spain and cannot afford to hang onto to their Spanish property, and as property markets are always cyclical, if you need to sell at the wrong time, you will lose out.   It was ever thus!!!

I did not want to live in Shangri La and Spain never was paradise.   But it is a lifestyle choice and people have the right to continue to choose that style and to defend it.  The real tragedy is not the expats and property speculators who have been burned - it is the Spanish people.  First they were squeezed out of the property market across whole swathes of Spain because of northern Europeans demanding over priced  properties.  Now they are out of jobs and in turmoil.  

Personally, I would like to see a lot of the empty junk virtually given away to Spanish families, but that will never happen - they will be knocked down first.

In a roundabout way, all I am saying is that if you have lost money - of course it is a shame, but join the rest of the world, not just people who bought second (or first) homes in Spain.

 eggcup - we were writing at the same time, and I so agree with you EXCEPT about the people getting the reduced price.  Property is only worth what people are willing to pay.  It is not greed to offer below the asking price, and get the best bargain you can.  Especially given that prices might go even further.

Just an aside, various people departing Spain have mentioned it can be difficult getting back into the UK housing market when they have not retained an abode there. As a very rough general guide how do UK compare to Spanish property prices ie is it 25% - 50% - 100% more ?? (Rightly or wrongly, had the impression that UK prices were not that inflated except for London !!!!).

Harry

"the people who bought your place for a ridiculously low amount are rubbing their hands in glee, but I pity them and their 'bargain.'  I've found that no good comes to people with that kind of attitude."

??????????

Roly2 - I agree with some of what you say but as for properties being cyclical, if you want to think in those terms it will probably be at least another 20 years before property prices in Spain AND the UK will appreciate like they did in previous cycles.    This time Spain is stuffed and so is the UK to a certain extent and the only reason property in the UK hasn't plummeted as much as spain is the demand, we are swamped with immigrants, 6 million wanting somewhere to live not including our own people's kids who cannot afford property.  

Hindsight is a great thing and if we had it, me for one would have kept my money in the bank for my retirement.

As for the empty properties in Spain being given to the Spanish, there are thousands here in the UK with nowhere to live too and the only difference is Spain would offer the empty properties to the Spanish first and foremost and exclusively, whereas in the UK we offer them to immigrants first in front of our own !  

As for buying holiday homes being a speculative investment, if you go back to the 1960's buying property in Spain was a sure fire investment and people enjoyed profits for at least 30 or 40 yrs, some buying for under 10,000 and selling for over 100,000 so that argument doesn't really wash with me.    Cycles in Spain only seem to happen every 30 or 40 yrs !

 Sorry - I don't agree.  Property has never been a sure fire investment any where in the world.  This does not mean that people have not done very nicely out of it (and I include myself in that).   The best you can say is that property peaks and troughs.   During the period you cite, (1960 to end of century?)  Spanish property prices plummeted at least once that I can remember - anyone needing to sell at that time would consider themselves caught.  I do agree that this is not a normal collapse, and I also agree that we are looking at 20 years to recover (look at Japan - no where near property recovery there after decades).   BUT, I have never bought a house or property of any sort for profit.  I have bought them to live in, or enjoy, and I am fortunate in that most of them have appreciated.   There is NO sure fire investment - property or otherwise.  People have simply been led to believe this over the past few decades.  

I would go along with what you say about people in the UK as well not being able to afford a decent home - and I would maintain that property prices in the UK are forced up by speculation.   The only easy mortages at the moment in the Uk seem to be for buy to let landlords - who have already bought up loads of city centre properties and inflated the prices for everyone.

Time to buy or sell?   Buy by all means - but remember it is taking a punt unless you really want to live in a property.  Sell?   If you have to.   Keeping a property just because you wont take the hit, can cost you more money in the future.  

We are recent buyers of a holiday home in Spain after looking around for the last 2 years. Having stayed at several areas we decided on the Costa Calida for our place in the sun. The best way to establish what you want is to stay on a weeks holiday and talk to the locals in the area and then look at facilities and then  pick the worst house in the best location at todays prices you will get a bargain. We found difficulty obtaining any funding from Spanish banks and ended up using our own capital to purchase. The choice of urbanization v village community is a vital  decision . We purchased on an Unbanisation Camposol for several reasons . 1 Location to beeches, shops and the motorway to many parts of this area which we still have to discover. 2, A new airport at Corvera is going to open next April 2013 and thats 15 minutes away. 3. The proposed Paramount Resort if it happens is only 10 minutes from Composol 4. Prices are right at the moment for buyers and the Pound is reasonable v Euro

We are happy with what we purchased and where it is but there are two sided to being in a large Ex pat community . First of all we have some lovely neighbours who we met on the first week ,all asking if we needed any help. We have met lots of lovely people in and around camposol at the many bars and resturants. Now the Bad Points "Be careful about joining Residents Associations   We have been stunned by the reaction of some members to  perfectly reasonable postings made on the website to such an extent that we  want nothing to do with them any further.  At a recent CPM (Citizens Participation Meeting) held by the Council for Residents it was the Spanish Residents who gave most of the Input to the Mayor of Mazarron . Why do British People who move to Spain think they are owed something by Spanish Local Autorities. Many of them dont even try to learn the language, pay as little tax as they can and boast about how they contibute to the local economy . The saying goes "when in Rome".  So we would recommend Camposol without any hesitation but keep clear of the few moaning Brits you might meet ( Mostly found on Residents Websites) people that think Spain should treat them as VIPS . Yes now is the time to purchase and you wont get much better value for money anywhere in the World than Murcia Region

Property prices are not just pushed up by speculation.   Many factors affect the property market as we know having bought and sold several properties in the Uk over the years.   Supply and demand is one of the most crucial factors.   If there are not enough properties the price increases dramatically hence the situation in the UK where prices have been held for the most part due to demand and in Spain developers drove up the prices due to demand of holiday homes from countries outside of Spain.   Once those countries were in trouble the market died a death and the resulting over supply has caused property prices to plummet.   Believe it or not there are builders still building more new homes in Spain even though there are about 800,000 still on the market !

Whereas in the UK building has more or less ceased resulting in a shortage meaning that buy to let have cashed in hugely.  One other reason property prices fluctuate is with the economy of a country.   When people are mostly in work and wages are rising year on year, this drives the price of property up.   In countries where there is high unemployment or strict borrowing limits by banks, property is either as in Germany or France and people are content to rent, even though many may be earning good wages.

So property buying is not highly speculative, it all depends on the borrowing limits, the unemployment situation, and the amount of money washing around in the countries concerned.   Also where wages are held down by over supply of labour, the prospect of buying property is also out of reach.

As for property being a sure fire investment, it has been during many periods in both Spain and the UK.    When wages start to rise in the UK (which will probably be many years to come), property will start to rise and aslong as houses are being built and people can afford to buy, prices will start to spiral once more, it is all about timing but most people don't have the option of only buying or selling in the good times as there are many reasons which affect their decision otherwise we would all be property millionaires.

A few days ago I watched "place in the sun." A couple had 150000 to spend on a holiday home. They were shown Torrevieja, and there were some lovely properties. They liked a townhouse which had everything they wanted. A 3 year old car, only 10000 kms on the clock, was included in the price-£116000, if the full asking price was offered. The husband , not content with a fabulous bargain, offered 113000, which was refused, but he wore the sellers down, and eventually they accepted. Some would say he drove a hard bargain, and deserved to be rewarded. Others thought he was a greedy so and so. Guess what I thought?

Lets hope he gets a letter from the Spanish taxman, demanding complementary tax!

 it sounds like Aliton and Camposol should have met earler....one wanting to sell the other just purchased?!

I don't think my price would be low enough for buyers who can buy a similar villa to mine for between 124000 and 250000e depending how desperate the seller is. Buyers expect furniture, soft furnishings, white goods, garden furniture etc for a knock down price, and they won't get it from me!

 Looks like your in for the duration then.

Mind you if you love where you live,whats the rush.

I don't think my price would be low enough for buyers who can buy a similar villa to mine for between 124000 and 250000e depending how desperate the seller is. Buyers expect furniture, soft furnishings, white goods, garden furniture etc for a knock down price, and they won't get it from me!

Mind if I ask whether you are holding out partly on expectation that prices might pick up ?

Anyway, appears you are in no great rush to sell - which is good !!