| The Comments |
Camposol: "Is there no one in a high place who could confront the Government/Hacienda and tell them the detrimental affect this new law is having on the expat community"
Well, I think finally there has been some petitioning, as you yourself reported previously. As you said though, it's probably too little too late. It has been suggested that the new legislation is against EU law, but it has been rushed through with little chance for it to be challenged before the reporting deadline. It may well get overturned - but by then all us silly law-abiding numpties will have handed over sensitive personal financial information to an administration that has proved itrself to be totally incompetent and corrupt.
I really don't want to get started, John, but just how many Spaniards do you know with overseas based annuities? There are so many tax evasions taking place right under their noses, you can't possibly tell me this was the best idea they came up with to stop it? And that it isn't a cynical attempt to target a politically irrelevant, relatively wealthy group.
It's OK, Kathyslad, you can turn the light back on and get up.
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"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"
Mark Twain
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Well, Roberto, your comments certainly added a lot to that debate. Your comments on my bit about to stop Spaniards sending money abroad got short thrift. However, the deputy mayor and the councillor for finance of Javea disagrees with you. I quote " Mr Anton believes the asset declaration exercise is missing it's intended target, spanish citizens sending money abroad to avoid tax, and instead hitting foreign residents keen to abide by the rules." He goes on to say that Madrid wants to know how much money is going to Switzerland or Germany or whatever but is affecting foreigners trying to do the right thing. The mayor of San Miguel also disagrees with you but, hey, who are we to disagree with your dismissal of everyone elses views. How about those premium bonds? Your one word answer of no really helps a lot. You can't purchase premium bonds if you are not a resident of UK. You cannot take part in the UK lottery if you are not a resident of UK. Does the simple reply of "no" even carry a reason of why you should even still hold these bonds if you are a resident in Spain.? Prpbably, in your mind, it all makes sense. But (sorry for starting a sentence with a conjunctive) a "can't even be bothered to reply" makes me feel that I can't even be bothered to read your posts.
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It seems some people unhappy about this have been proactive and are trying to do something about it instead of just saying 'it's the law', good luck to them at least they are trying.
I UNDERSTAND THE TEXT OF THIS PETITION HAS BEEN ACCEPTED BY THE PETITIONS COMMITTEE IN BRUSSELS:
European Parliament,
Committee on Petitions,
The Secretariat,
Rue Wiertz,
B-1047, Brussels
Petition
Title: Urgent Review of the Legality of Spain’s Asset Declaration Demands in view of European Union Norms and the Spanish Constitution:
To: The European Parliament’s Petitions Committee
Submitted by Concerned European Citizens resident in Spain
Text:
The Petitioners welcome Spain's efforts to tackle corruption, money laundering and tax evasion. They believe, however, that the measures now being adopted by the application of Decreto Real 1558/2012 are too blunt a tool to do this efficiently: the aim of any fiscal policy should be to pluck the tax-paying goose so gently that it will continue to lay its golden eggs.
The Petitioners believe that a better, sharper, tool could be forged by building on existing measures such as the EU Savings Directive and internationally agreed information exchanges to counter these abuses while respecting individual rights to property and privacy as guaranteed by the European Union and the Spanish Constitution.
In the case of EU nationals who have retired to reside in Spain, their assets are more often than not the accumulation of savings from taxed income built up over a lifetime of work in the country of their nationality and held solely to provide financial security in their final years. Their assets held outside Spain are not wealth that has been siphoned out from the Spanish economy by corrupt politicians, money launderers or tax evaders; rather the money they have brought to Spain to buy property and to fund day-to-day living costs has generated employment and has brought benefit to the Spanish economy.
The Petitioners believe that the reporting baseline asset value could be doubled or even quadrupled without adversely affecting the collection of data and its quality. Indeed reducing the volume of asset reports to be filed would have a beneficial effect by easing pressure on the Agencia Tributaria (and financial consulting companies) so allowing them to focus on and tackle any serious abuses.
The Petitioners also believe that the reporting format demanded does not recognise the various and differing ways in which assets can be held outside Spain, whether in trust funds, managed accounts, Individual Savings Accounts, Personal Equity Plans or whatever, and their differing reporting periods. Similarly earnings derived from shares can be reported at different times of the year and in a number of formats, so making any historical calculation of 'wealth' in the required manner difficult if not impossible, especially within the short time-scale allowed. (This has been recognized by the “Your Advice Europe” service to be a serious form of discrimination.)
The Petitioners believe that the penalties to be imposed for late filing, omissions or errors are disproportionate, and would, in many circumstances, be greater than the asset involved. Deliberate false filings should, of course, be dealt with - but penalties for minor errors or omissions should be capable of modulation to match the nature of the failure.
The Petitioners are concerned about the fine detail they are being required to file through financial service companies who may not properly protect their computer databases against unauthorised access, and which would thus provide information of use to internet fraudsters and scammers.
The Petitioners request the Petitions Committee and the Parliament to intervene immediately with the Spanish authorities urging them to postpone the asset reporting deadline from April 30 2013, sine die, pending adequate clarification and simplification of the reporting process. This must include assurances from the Spanish government that the process is in full compliance with relevant EU norms, Directives, etc, and well as the Spanish Constitution itself.
In view of the urgency of the situation, the established asset reporting deadline being April 30, 2013, the Petitioners request the Petitions Committee to admit this petition without delay and with a view to engaging the EU Commissions as quickly as possible, in the belief that this matter should be addressed as a matter of priority by the European Court of Justice. The Petitioners, while drawing attention to the attachments to this petition, may wish to add supplemental information in due course.
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Poppyseed
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Brilliantly put! I fear it is too late for most of used who have allready bared our financial souls, and trust that our very detailed and private information will not be abused. Whatever Johnx and others say, it IS targeted at the "cash cow" the ex pat population, some of whom have been put off Spain for life.
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Sorry to jump back into this thread but after 30-years in France and having lived through the introduction of wealth tax thought it might be worth just outlining my experience.
France introduced the wealth tax with a view of taking money from the rich. Over the years this has drawn more households into the 'rich' category. Now we have to provide an annual statement which include our property, cars, furniture stocks cash jewels and being France fine wines. There are exceptions for the art collection, historic cars and thankfully for me industrial rights (patents).
What this means is that any house hold with a wealth greater than 800K will pay ISV (tax) at a graduated rate at 0.5% up to 1.5% for 10M+.
There are excemptions and ways around wealth (like having in kept in an Assurance Vie) and many other methods a tax lawyer can assist with.
However once the government have the info they can make adjustments to the bands bringing more or less households into various bands. As Presdent Hollande is trying to do at the moment. The result is companies that can are relocating in my case back to Switzerland and folk of wealth are moving London being the main destination.
I know many on here are wanting to do the right thing and as compliant as possible with the law all I say is beware as Spain will need extra cash in the near future and the info many well be used for purposes beyond current intent.
Rossetti
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I agree Rossetti, it does not bode well and I wouldn't trust any of them with this information. Whatever assets I may have have been acquired through hard work with my tax paid earnings and are my business and I am not likely to let them be potentially taxed again, it's nothing less than state sponsored extortion. It has however made my decision of where to permanently reside easier and it isn't going to be Spain or France, in fact I am seriously thinking of pulling out of these two countries altogether.
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Poppyseed
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As I posted, wealth tax (Patrimonio Tax) has been payable in Spain since 1977.
When it was reintroduced (after a brief suspension) the entry levels were, 300,000 € for the value one’s main residence and 700,000 € for other assets, worldwide.
The tax starts at a lowly 0.2%. (2 euros per 1,000 euros value)
That means, I would think that not many ex pats come within it’s range. If they do, they are not exactly on the breadline and with such a low start level, I really don’t see why anyone should shout ‘foul.’
This message was last edited by johnzx on 09/04/2013.
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What does it matter if you are not on the breadline, if you have worked hard for nearly 50 years and paid your taxes already helping to support those who have not worked for all those years why should you pay even more tax, it's your money thats been hard earned for your own benefit and in our case by blood sweat and tears working and living in inhospitable environments, long hours and for many, many years.? Why do people have it in their heads that anyone with more than them are well off and should pay more when those supposidly well off people have probably worked a damn sight harder and much longer with no early retirement, don't they deserve to be better off?
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Poppyseed
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Poppy, there is no obligation to pay anything, unless you choose to live in Spain (or France and several other countries apparently).
I decided to live in Spain in 1988 thus I accepted I would pay my taxes as the law dictates. Had I not been agreeable I would have stayed in UK or gone elsewhere. My choice.
As I said, Patrimonio Tax has been around since 1977 so was in place before ‘most’ people came to live here. They have not suddenly 'moved the goal posts.'
However, if one lives in the UK and has a reasonable pile, then the council tax is very much higher than in Spain and based on the value of the property (wealth tax).
This message was last edited by johnzx on 09/04/2013.
This message was last edited by johnzx on 09/04/2013.
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John,
suggest that many can be asset rich but cash poor. As I understand it a state well know to those whoretired a while ago.
As such it can be difficult to pay taxes especially when they come from left field.
Spain is clearly a country in a big financial mess and with so many not willing to join the tax club might well look to some it believes have funds to pay 'a bit extra'.
My advise to anyone concerned is to seek advise from tax lawyers who are best placed to give such advice. It is clear from the guy I rent my villa from that there are many ways around the current 'laws' in Spain. Most of which is against much of the ill informed 'facts' spouted by the 'experts' on the forum.
Rossetti
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Ross,
starts at 0.5% in France you say against 0.2% in Spain !!
Glad I choose Spain
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Johnzx haven't you said somewhere that you don't pay any tax in Spain?
Well neither France or Spain are getting any more of my hard earned dosh.
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Poppyseed
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Re income tax, yes you are right. I don't have the choice. I have to pay in UK. I could if I could I would choose to do in Spain
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Johnx-of course I don't have factual evidence to prove this new law is aimed at the ex pats, but as has been said by myself and several others on this forum, very rich Spaniards will get round this with a good tax accountant.Ordinary Spanish are not likely to have assets outside Spain amounting to 50,000 euros, so who is left? Us. Those of us who have saved for years towards retirement are a cash cow and easy target.It's pretty obvious really. The petition to the EU is spot on and echoes this.
State sponsored extortion-that's a good one!
bobao--it's incorrect to say you can't buy premium bonds if you live in Spain. On the application forms it says that you have to get a certifcate from the Hacienda before you can buy. Of course while the winnings are tax free in UK,they are not in Spain.
Lottery-you can enter the UK lottery, but only when you are visiting UK. Again, winnings tax free in UK, not in Spain This message was last edited by camposol on 09/04/2013.
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John,
I remember when it was 0.2 in France but times being what they are it's now starting at 0.5. Spain might be 0.2 today but what rate tomorrow?
Also we have the Assurance Vie wrapper which we can reduce our tax liabilities (for most) to zero. I don't know how much longer this will be allowed, especially the very generous allowances for non French residents.
We shouldn't be comparing country wealth tax rates but learn from whats been done once all the info about an individual has been collected by the government and the ease with which they can extract new taxes or tax rates.
I as you are clearly happy with our respective lots but we should ensure readers have as much info as possible especially if they are about to embark on a major change such as relocation to a different juristiction which has the possibility of impacting their financial well being. By taking certain measures ahead of a move it is possible to not have too many difficulties with the current regulations in Spain.
My advice as alsways is seek the best advice you can get before driving into a cul de sac that just might be difficult to reverse out of.
Rossetti
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Bobaol: "who are we to disagree with your dismissal of everyone elses views". You are more than welcome to disagree with my views, but please don't presume that everyone agrees with you either. Admittedly I did rather dismiss you statement of "the rules were brought in to stop Spaniards from moving money out of the country to avoid paying tax". I apologise for being dismissive, but you surely don't have any incontrovertible proof that this was the real intention? The fact is, Camposol, Poppyseed, Rossetti & a great many others if you take the time to visit some far better informed and intellectual forums than this one seem to suspect otherwise. Of course the likes of the Mayors of Javea & San Miguel will dress their statements up with diplomacy - they are politicians after all. But the fact that they've come out and said anything suggests that they don't entirely disagree with me.
"a "can't even be bothered to reply" makes me feel that I can't even be bothered to read your posts." Again, I apologise for the dismissive reply, but I'm just tired of people continuously spouting the government's own line that this legislation is purely aimed at the fat cats, who will no doubt avoid it anyway through their corrupt connections and expensive clever tax lawyers. I'm sure there are easier ways of tracing large amounts of money that are moved out of Spain, than looking into the minutae of expats' pension plans. That's why it makes no sense (to me). And tellingly, the same people who seem to see no harm in this new legislation also seem to be the ones who are happy to say that they have bugger all so won't be affected anyway. Bit like the "I'm alright Jacks" in Cyprus with less than 100K in the bank - they don't give a to55 now about their compatriots who are taking the hit.
But I am happy for the likes of John, who lives in Costa Utopia, and Bob, who is still enjoying the honeymoon. Long may it last! 
Does the simple reply of "no" even carry a reason of why you should even still hold these bonds if you are a resident in Spain.?
Again, I apologise if my answer was too concise for your liking. To expand - there's no reason why premium bonds should have been sold when taking out residency, and no, not only UK residents are allowed to own them. (I thought "no" summed that up quite well though!)
_______________________
"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"
Mark Twain
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By Dave Jones - COSTA BLANCA NEWS
OPPONENTS of Spain’s new asset declaration rules are hoping the European Union will intervene to derail the diktat.
A Spanish law firm has already presented a complaint to Brussels which has been accepted by the European Commission (EC).
EU PETITION
The protesters are hoping their petition to the EU’s Petitions’ Committee will be registered this week.
It would then be passed to a coordinating group ‘to get it on track for consideration by the committee’, according to an EU source.
The manifesto is due to be included as a supplemental document to the petition.
LAWYERS’ COMPLAINT
The complaint presented by Majorca-based law firm DMS Consulting against the Kingdom of Spain for ‘attacking the free movement of people and goods’ over the asset declaration rules will now be examined by the Commission.
If European law has been broken it would lead to an infraction procedure being launched against Spain, says DMS Consulting.
According to DMS Consulting, the legislation is incompatible with the Community Law as it presents an important restriction to the free movement of people and capitals, set out in Articles 21 and 63 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
This message was last edited by Poppyseed on 10/04/2013.
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Poppyseed
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Camposol
Johnx-of course I don't have factual evidence to prove this new law is aimed at the ex pats, but as has been said by myself and several others on this forum, very rich Spaniards will get round this with a good tax accountant.Ordinary Spanish are not likely to have assets outside Spain amounting to 50,000 euros, so who is left? Us.
My line of reasoning is:-
If there is nothing to prove something is a fact, why would one believe it is a fact ?
Until one knows differently, it’s just an unfounded suspicion, or a wild guess etc.
This message was last edited by johnzx on 10/04/2013.
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Did my declaration at a gestor's this morning.
I had all the info they required written out (did it on a spread sheet) .
They said they will submit it, when they have time to enter it online, and let me know in 3 / 4 weeks if the Hacienda require anything more. However, they have not yet had any response to the declarations, so far, to those they have made, since January.
The ‘good news’ was that there is no facility for the declarant to sign, thus it would seem that they cannot be held responsible for errors On the income tax form one signs it and thus the person making the return is liable for any errors not the professional
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So, if the petition is successful, it's too late for those of us who have exposed our private bank details etc.
I wonder if there is any point informing our banks that we have had to surrender this very detailed info, so that they would be aware of any possible id theft? someone has hinted they might try this.
Is to possible to have the bank account numbers changed, or would that make everything more complicated
This message was last edited by camposol on 12/04/2013.
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