Reporting of Assets Outside Spain and UK Rental Income.

I don't really want to go into ping pong replies, I'm not sure they achieve anything, but in response to johnzx's reply on 27 Feb 2012 10:03, to my original post, I would like to say that I don't blame the Spanish Government for this law, what I said was ' whilst I find this particular law highly intrusive, as I reside here and I am tax resident here, I will comply with it '.

Secondly, I have spoken to two of my banks so far, who have both said that they would not disclose details of my holdings with them, but that they are required to report to my country of residence the interest that has been accrued on these accounts, which I have always been aware of and have included in my tax returns in Spain. I will update this thread if the written confirmation comes back any differently. 

Yes I am aware that I will be required to disclose the balances on the accounts at 31st December, 2012... my question is are the Hacienda able to obtain this information without you being aware that they are asking for it.

Thirdly, in the case of my life assurance policies, I am quite aware that information declared on a tax return is the responsibility of the declarant, but the problem is that I don't know exactly what they want me to declare, which is why you go to a professional for their guidance and as far as I can see what most of us will do, especially as submission of the Modelo 720 is only on line.

I plan to go to my local Hacienda office with an English born lawyer friend of mine who was brought up in Spain and speaks fluent Spanish, as opposed to a Spanish person who speaks English, at times things do get lost in translation, only then will I be satisfied that I understand exacly what the Hacienda wants in terms of these policies. Explaining plans legally owned by trustees with potential beneficiaries should be interesting, again I cannot be the only person with this problem who needs to know how and what to report.  

Unfortunately ' Duty of Care ' and ' Due Diligence '  appears to only be something that exists elsewhere, how many of us quote  the much used expression ' You ask the same question to ten different people and you get ten different answers ' and yes I do expect an Gestoria to have some idea of what is required on any tax form in the Spanish tax system, otherwise why do I go to them and pay them for that privilege.

As I said in the opening paragraph of my original post, I would like to thank johnzx for his input and I will continue to do so.

I also agree with Kathyslad  'As I think was said on an earlier thread, these new laws are really designed to capture those wealthy Spanish who have been doing exactly as you say. Unfortunately law abiding expats get caught in the crossfire.I'm sure that most, like me, came to Spain to enjoy their twilight years. They accept that they are subject to the tax laws in Spain, and most of them will have paid all the taxes they were supposed to in the UK, so why would they change now '.

Many of us are trying to get it right, seeking to understand, some are not bothered, but I for one am not going to risk or potentially jeopardise everything I have worked for in my life on the basis that I didn't understand what is required.

Again, has anyone yet submitted a modelo 720 ?, if so how did it go ?, what problems - if any - did you experience.

Jimbo-G

My Spanish colleague has just spoken to his asesor/gestor about this new law because his wife is American and she has assets in the US (which she pays tax on).  The asesor told them not to bother declaring his wife's assets in the US.  The asesor reckons Hacienda are only intersted in Spaniards that have been deliberately hiding money outside of Spain.

Every tax office in the civilised world speaks with each other, dangerous thing this Internet and computer business, it's not a case of they might not catch you, and they might not, ever, yet they might, somebody's turn has to turn up sooner or later.

Be wary of any solicitor / accountant , here their or anywhere telling you don't bother, because if it's your turn he would love to charge you to sort the mess out, and in most case's they are exempt from prosecution for submitting false information because most likely you signed their submitted tax letters saying basically.....that they only submitted what you told them.

Legal tip 907. Obligation of Information of Goods and Rights Located Abroad 
06 March 2013 @ 13:53 

"The Observer", Sacromonte, Granada, South-east of Spain, by Landahlauts, at flickr.com 

Just to help my gestoria out, does anyone have a definitive view on where Premium Bonds go ?, Class 1 or  Class 2.  

Just how far back are details of bank accounts opened/closd etc required-4 years, or from when you first came to Spain ? Sorting out the minute details is horrendous. Thse who lived here for years and have never registered and have no intention of complying with this new rule must be laughing their socks off, as its the poor devils who are anxiously going over every detail in order not to be fined for an inadvertant mistake who will suffer,

Hi camposol

its the poor devils who are anxiously going over every detail in order not to be fined for an inadvertant mistake who will suffer

I agree that this will almost certainly be used by Hacienda to catch people out who have made mistakes on their form.  Maybe this is one of the main reasons for introducing it?

It seems to me that there is a risk in submitting this form, just as there is a risk in not submitting it.

Err on the side of caution. Declare everything. Can't be wrong then can you ? If you are thinking of doing something declare that as well. Better to declare something that doesn't exist, but might , rather than things that do exist but might not be included. Remember the penalty is for
" non-declaration" not " Declaration of things that don't exist ! "
Throw some confusion in, as well as sleeping soundly knowing that you have not left anything out.

If you sell your house during 2013, go back to uk 2014, having transferred the house proceeds to one of your uk accounts, obviously the assets in that class would have increased by over 20,000 euros, so another assets declaration would have to be made in 2014 for 2013.Would only the details of the account in that class which has increased have to be declared, or would all the assets in that class have to be declared again, even though they hadn't increased by 20k,

Incidentally:  

Premium Bond winnings,  although tax free in UK,  but taxable in Spain, and thus must be declared.

I bet very few if any, realised that!

" f you sell your house during 2013, go back to uk 2014, having transferred the house proceeds to one of your uk accounts, "

It certainly wouldn't go to any account that they would know about , or even in the same names !

guslopez-so what are you doing about the reporting of assets outside Spain then? Do you have any ideas to stop Spain getting it's greedy hands on our money-if so, do share.

To follow up on a couple of points.

Premium Bonds, in response to a question posed by DC(Costa del Sol) in this weeks EWN page 29, David Searle - albeit with an understandable disclaimer - states that he agrees with DC's assumption that they belong in class 2.

Life Assurance, after much work in trying to understand exactly what is needed, my Gestoria has said that it is the ' Rescue Value ', which according to my English born, Spanish brought up solicitor is a direct translation of the words ' Surrender ' or cash in value. I am therefore taking the view that Term Life plans, that never have a surrender value need not be reported, but that Whole of Life plans that have built up a surrender need to be, however it would have to be a pretty big sum assured to have accrued a surrender value of € 50,000.

Bank Accounts, even with the amount of information that is shared by Tax Authorities nowadays and the amount of detail that needs to be submitted, I have received written confirmation from my banks that under no circumstances would they ever disclose details of my holdings with them without my prior written authority. My concern has always been whether or not the Modelo 720 includes an automatic statement authorising them to disclose ?. Anyone have a view ?.

My Bank account with Nat West  was opened when it was still National Provincial around 45 years ago, heaven knows when.

From peple I have spoken to, there is still a great deal of unawareness with quite a lot of people for the need to submit this information by the end of April and in fact very many of them have no idea that this law even existed.

Other Gestorias I have spoken to say that you only need to report bank accounts with substantial amounts of cash in them !, me I'm going to report the lot, even if there is only £ 2.47 in them, old accounts that I've kept open and never closed... I will now.           

Bank Accounts, even with the amount of information that is shared by Tax Authorities nowadays and the amount of detail that needs to be submitted, I have received written confirmation from my banks that under no circumstances would they ever disclose details of my holdings with them without my prior written authority. My concern has always been whether or not the Modelo 720 includes an automatic statement authorising them to disclose ?. Anyone have a view ?.

No need to worry about the tax man knowing what you got or any written authority from your bank because he already knows what you got, the bank has to inform all tax authorities about any account interest you receive, even if it's in a zero interest account, from that they work out what you got, and if that don't satisfy them, they go further.

Even if you bank did send you a letter asking for your written permission to inform the tax man, you cant say NO, because that then gives the tax man reasonable doubt to look without your permission, and that is all he needs.

Camposol wrote ;

" guslopez-so what are you doing about the reporting of assets outside Spain then? Do you have any ideas to stop Spain getting it's greedy hands on our money-if so, do share."

Nothing. When I moved here I took the decision that I lived here, that's where my money is. I still have accounts in my name in the Uk but not with enough to disclose in. In addition all accounts that I have both here & in the UK do not generate any interest as I do not believe in " unearned income ".

I do not have any property in the UK or anything else that needs to be declared. If I do decide that I'm going to transfer money out of Spain then it would be in to accounts that are not in my name, probably into one of the kids.

It is no different to if I won the lottery here. After they'd taken there 20% I'd transfer the rest straight out & in to the childrens names.

As for the tax people talking to each other : lol.

I spent 2 hours & 3 or 4 phone calls to the HMRC last july before they finally agreed that I did exist & appeared to have paid tax many years ago. Then we had to go through the same nonsense with the wife, & we used to be in business.

In all honesty we  didn't exist  as far as they were/are concerned.