Cameron promises in/out referendum on EU

And that's the problem, woodbug. We have a lot of people saying how much it costs, all the drawbacks and so on but nobody actually says what benefits, if any, we get from it. If we get no benefits, why stay in? On the other hand, if our trade benefits, imports, export trade and so on are beneficial, why can't it be explained properly? Like you, I voted to go in (but under Mr Heath not Wilson. De Gaulle vetoed the membership under Wilson) but it was a trading bloc, not a federation. I don't believe half the things the press tell us about rules and laws coming from the EU but I just wish someone would explain what Britain does get out of it. It would be so much easier to make up one's mind if the Europhobes and Europhiles could point out the benefits and drawbacks without resorting to simply slagging each other off.
And, john, I realise the dual taxation rules might not change but it was simply a "what if" in response to your "what if" regarding the treatment of EU citizens.
On a personal note, it would be nice if the implications for those of us living in Spain could be pointed out if Britain pulled out. Healthcare, pensions, tax, owning property and even driving. And I don't mean educated or uneducated guesses but what would really happen.

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Bobaol states

"On a personal note, it would be nice if the implications for those of us living in Spain could be pointed out if Britain pulled out. Healthcare, pensions, tax, owning property and even driving. And I don't mean educated or uneducated guesses but what would really happen."

At last the discussion moves to real pratical issues...... just like the property issues that thousands of others have been trying to get the EU to resolve concerning the protection of basic consumer rights across member states!

 

This message was last edited by ads on 24/01/2013.

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Mr Cameron is trying to apply pressure to negotiate a better deal for Britain in the EU, but this is a very harry risky political game.

Both for the people living and working in the UK, but also for the tens of thousands of expats who live and work in the other EU country's.

If Britain decides to leave the EU, it will bring such a huge uncertainty to the global stability and economy, that the whole system will be threatened with collapse.

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Would anyone in their right mind willingly hand over their hard earned dosh to any organization that hasn't had it's accounts qualified for the last 18 (or therreabouts) years?

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It does beg the question what have they got to hide and exactly why have their accounts not been qualified. Can anyone provide any answers?

More importantly why have European citizens allowed this to happen? Such lack of transparency and accountability presumably thrives on apathy, so let's hope that this opens up some debate to stimulate the member states populations to demand answers to some vital questions.... but I'm not holding my breath on that score. 

It's sad that the need to to review and reform the status quo, in order to formulate solutions to major failings within the system is interpreted as blackmail by some, when in reality we all need to be better educated to the realities, both good and bad, before any of us could make any reasoned rational judgements.

No matter what your political persuasion we should all be demanding however that our political representatives be far more accountable and that the failings and areas in need of reform are honestly identified and prioritorised within a realistic timeframe. To leave this to drag on for many more years will only prove that the EU is neither willing to review nor reform where necessary, nor are they prepared to be honest and accountable to their electorates.

It hardly inspires confidence does it? 

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Re Eu Audit

 

Somebody went through the bother to check!!!!!!! Found this piece by Michael Heaney on the net.

 

Occasionally people opposed to the EU claim that it has not signed off on its budget for several years and this is evidence of it being a corrupt organization manned by inept or dishonest bureaucrats and consequently a bad thing, wasting taxpayers money.

I wondered if this was really true so I went to the source for an explanation and this is what I found. It's a bit technical - and tedious - but if you are going to accuse an organization that costs the equivalent of just under 250 euros a year for each EU citizen then you want to know all that money is being well spent.

The EU audit office would be more than happy to sign off the budget - but they are not in control of it - the majority is out of their hands- administered by the national governments who fail to provide sufficient or accurate detail to the EU to allow it to be certain that it has not been misspent by the member states..And then the EU have to go and reclaim it back. 

"There are variations in the way expenditure is claimed and paid - including the regulation to which they are subject - as well as in the type and location of beneficiaries. Within some areas, notably agriculture there are different types of transactions. Overall, this necessitates a multitude of bodies, and systems for the administration and control of the EU budget.

The management of most of Community funds (some 80% of the total) is shared with Member States, which adds to the complexity. Depending on the spending schemes national administrations may be responsible for setting spending strategies, selecting beneficiaries and projects, making payments and checking the expenditure. In addition, for external actions some expenditure is implemented by 150 non-EU countries as well as international organizations and NGO's. In all cases, however, the Commission still retains the overall responsibility for the execution of the budget and is accountable for this to the European Parliament and Council.

Due to the various and varied spending schemes, and many different levels of management (Community, national, regional etc) the management and control systems spread throughout the Union are fragmented and complex. This makes it difficult to impose common standards and coordinate them effectively increasing the risk of error and hampering the achievement of an adequate and consistent level of internal control over the budget as a whole."

"The Court of Auditors has given last year, as it did in previous years, a clean bill of health on the EU accounts. The Court confirms these accounts faithfully reflect how the EU budget was spent.
The Court also gives a separate opinion on whether all payments have been correctly processed, i.e. paid on time, the invoice properly signed, amounts paid correctly, whether the best and cheapest suppliers have been chosen, etc. The Court says it can only give positive assurance on some spending, not on the whole budget, as it has found errors in some of the payments under scrutiny.

Most of the errors found by the Court concerned EU funds under national management.

The EU test is much more rigorous than that of the private sector, where only book-keeping records are audited.

Sir John Bourn, the UK's Comptroller & Auditor, has recently confirmed that if the UK had a similar test to the European one, he might have to qualify the whole of British Central Government expenditure. In the UK some 500 accounts representing the expenditure of the British government are audited and signed off separately, with some not passing the test each year, whereas the whole of EU expenditure is subject to a single verdict.
Many experts say that the unique way the audit process for the EU accounts has been designed in the treaties, and the resulting current Court of Auditors' methodology, do not ever allow a clean bill of health for all payments."

Source: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/07/350&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en
See also : http://www.2007-2013.eu/faq.php

So at least the EU budget- about 1.25% of member countries GNP is being properly monitored and they will not sign off as it all being correctly spent - until every last euro is properly accounted for.

Rather than being a sign of inept bureaucrats and massive corruption - it demonstrates their rigour and their determination to stamp out fraud or misappropriation of funds. So that a good thing then and something to celebrate, rather than to use to castigate or slur the EU.

Its good to base ones opinions on the facts 

Michael Heaney
Benchwhistler Associates Ltd
Planned People Maintenance - Enhancing the Performance of your most important asset 
www.benchwhistler.com
Know Better

 

 

This message was last edited by Cove Robert on 25/01/2013.

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Cove Robert

Thanks for that excellent post. At last the positives begins to come out.

 

 

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 As for a reason to stay in...how about the City of London financial services. 1 trillion plus turnover...per day!

Average April 2012 $2,000 billion!

Want that to go to Frankfurt or London?

What about access to EU markets. Want the companies looking for that to go to Ireland or Poland? 

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 Thanks marcbernard. I just want to make clear that it is not my work, I just went and looked for information.

I think most will agree that the EU is not perfect and needs reform but ,jeez, the way some Brits are willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater is just baffling. 

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The EU audit office would be more than happy to sign off the budget - but they are not in control of it - the majority is out of their hands- administered by the national governments who fail to provide sufficient or accurate detail to the EU to allow it to be certain that it has not been misspent by the member states.

Sorry but all that tells me is that the whole thing is one big complex mess and no-one really knows whats going on where, when and by whom. Lets not forget the member states are what make up the EU.

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Thank you Cove Robert for seeking that out.

It does beg questions relating to the complexity involved here however and the risks involved in turning a blind eye to the complex detail.

One can't help but be concerned when you reflect how it was the complex nature of the financial industry, and the failure to regulate/control the complex beast that ultimately led to nations being bankrupted. Lessons need to be learned from this, one of which appears to be that unregulated highly complex arrangements are the breeding ground for corrupt and manipulative bad practice (and this applies to all member states).

By way of an example, it is important to quote from an article that goes some way to prove how failure to address the detail of complex arrangements can lead to devastating consequences. It' doesn't make for pleasant reading I'm afraid...... all of us should be concerned whenever large unmanageable institutions choose to add more and more complexity than is necessary or can be effectively financially managed. Perhaps we should all be pushing the slogan "keep it simple please".

An extract from How the banks bet our house would burn down http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2010/11/cdos-part-2-how-the-banks-bet-our-house-would-burn-down/

…….But at the end of this tale of greed we need to remember this.  

The size of the shadow banking world of CDOs and CSOs is vast. Remember mortgages are a debt on a house.  That is the real wealth at the bottom.  A place for a family to live. Above that is a security. Above that a CDO. Above that CDS. Each layer further removed form the actual thing of worth.  Each layer bigger than the one upon which it sits, from which it is derived, because leverage allows each layer to be used as capital for lending out yet more debt.  By the time we get to CDS the ‘worth’ is all negative, in that the worth is realized only in the event of the ‘assets’ below it, the CDO, the security and the mortgage, all defaulting.  And yet this top layer, is also the biggest layer.

This vast top layer is the wealth of the super rich and their banks. It is what we are bailing out. It is the stuff whose value is hidden in mark to model accounting or in SIV’s off balance sheet and off shore.  It is what our nations are being bankrupted in order to save.

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 fail to provide sufficient or accurate detail to the EU to allow it to be certain that it has not been misspent by the member states.

Sorry but all that tells me is that the whole thing is one big complex mess and no-one really knows whats going on where, when and by whom. Lets not forget the member states are what make up the EU.

 

 

It seems to be complex, yes. As I said, room for reform and not many would disagree. But this audit argument is used in what I would call an disingenious way since it is used to imply that the EU is an inherent fraudulent organisation that has something to hide. Whereas it is just a very complicated matter. I am sure there is fraud and waste but that is not the reason that the audits are not signed off.But there is no convincing those that do not wish to be convinced, I guess.

What about my other points? What about access to EU markets for British and non EU companies that want to settle in Britain? Will they even entertain such plans since there seem to be 5 years of uncertainty ahead.

 

And here some euromyth for the readers entertainment. Funny how those creep up predominantly in the British press. Could there be an agenda? Surely not.

 

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/communication/take_part/myths_en.htm

 

http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/blog/index_en.htm

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqVJEZnYiZo   

Particular interesting at  min 2.45 and 4.30

 

I also like the one with the emulsified high fat offal tubes.

,,And it is actually a line from Yes Minister''

 

 

 

 

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 One can't help but be concerned when you reflect how it was the complex nature of the financial industry, and the failure to regulate/control the complex beast that ultimately led to nations being bankrupted. Lessons need to be learned from this, one of which appears to be that unregulated highly complex arrangements are the breeding ground for corrupt and manipulative bad practice (and this applies to all member states).

 

Could not agree more ads. I am a German expat in Ireland and have witnessed the rise and fall of this mythical beast, the Celtic Tiger. And I had my experiences in Spain. The regulators have not done their jobs, aided and abetted by various governments who were greedy for the tax income. A lot of this could have been controlled with tighter regulation.Low interest rates made money available, true, but governments made abuse of it possible. Why were 100% or 120 % mortgages allowed? I had to have 20 % saved before I could even ask for a mortgage for my first house.Don't get me going on ,,developers''. Most with no more concern then to squeeze the last available cent out of their customers. Premium prices for shoddy work, glorified rat cages. Gazumping anyone?  All now the fault of culprits from the outside, the Germans and French and the EU. I mean, the EU is a perfect culprit. The government wants to bring legislation through that is a bit controversial? The EU makes us. I would not myself don't you know but the EU...you know what it's like.

I agree 100% with you. Lessons need to be learned from this. I just do not think that leaving the EU is the way Great Britain should or needs to go.

 

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 Rather than being a sign of inept bureaucrats and massive corruption - it demonstrates their rigour and their determination to stamp out fraud or misappropriation of funds. So that a good thing then and something to celebrate, rather than to use to castigate or slur the EU.

Poppyseed, you could have used this one as well.

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Who is Michael Heaney of Benchwhistler Associates  ?

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Hi woodbug,

                       I trust you live in spain? If the UK vote to leave the EU can you afford to stay with no medical care? and a frozen state pension? and countless other benifits that we all take for granted. And if you live in the UK what about if the company that you work for decides to relocate  to outside the Uk to be back in the EU? One large car company has already threatened to do this, try telling all those that will be on the dole how good it will be to leave the EU. As to comparing Switzland and Norway theose contries are tiny by population just a few million in each and bear no relation at all to the UKs complex social welfare, and industry. The people who will ensure a get out vote are the right wing press and media   the press will  only state the negative about the EU.

 

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Hi Len

It’s all very well quoting unqualified and complicated facts concerning the EU but, and it’s a big but, we are dealing with politicians here and government controlled offices. If the EU was so wonderful and crucial to our lives, why are we all knee deep in the fertilizer – with no control over any of it?

Cameron is playing Rajoy’s game of ‘on my terms or else’. Both men know that they are in a strong position to secure the conditions they want, knowing that departing the EU if they don’t would be a catastrophe for the union. Cameron is blackmailing not only the EU but the British electorate as well in order to secure another term in office for the Conservatives.

He obviously wants to win the next election and he hopes that he has guaranteed the votes of the No’s and the Aye’s to return his party just so they can vote in the promised referendum. This for me is just a cynical ploy to yet again deceive the long suffering UK population.

I love Groucho Marx definition of politics: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and then applying the wrong remedies. He said it as a joke, but isn’t it nearer the truth?

Some days ago, the question was asked ‘What are the benefits of EU membership’? So far there doesn’t seem to be an overwhelming list of pro’s for continued membership. All the points raised so far are supposition and conjecture. Does anyone have any actual evidence that pensions or any existing health arrangements will be affected?  Perhaps EU membership has contributed to the high unemployment figure in UK with its open door policy – I don’t know as I haven’t seen any proof or evidence so far.

I do live in Spain and have been in business for many years and quite frankly the rules and regulations imposed by the EU are draconian, unworkable, biased, costly, unwelcome and for the most part, unwanted in any business. They suppress employment and are a huge financial burden and a time consuming pest to any business operator anywhere in Europe.

 

 

Woodbug

 

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 Poppyseed

 

http://www.ecademy.com/account.php?id=53285

Here is a profile of the man. Don't know him and never heard of him before I looked for information yesterday. What makes him stand out so far is that he seemed to have looked at the subject in depth, using more than 70 words or convinient soundbites to whip up sentiment and came up with a logical explanation. One can draw ones own conclusion.

Here is the last section of his profile. Seems sound to me.

What do I say
If you are not part of the problem - how do you possibly expect to be part of the solution 

Lighten up - you'll be a long time dead..

and something my dad told me many times 

You can't believe half the lies you hear.

Michael
Benchwhistler Associates Ltd

 

 

 

 

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                     G West

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Exactly!  Good post Geewiss.

 

Woodbug

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