New Spanish Laws....are they for real, or is it a windup..

The new Spanish laws that came in on 1st Jan means that you can only live here for 3 Months at the time, otherwise you must transfer all your income and accounts to a Spanish accountant, the reason I am worried is because we live here for 4 Months of the Year and in Ireland for 8 Months.... does anyone have an update on the new laws.......

Interesting question and the reply very relavant to my situation.

Origionally I thought of relocating to Spain for a year having spent the past 30 working in France ( I'm from the US my wife is French). Our main reason for early retirement was to move away from the potential of the French tax system that could be taking 50% tax from my earnings from patents. However the requirement to put all my assets on a Spanish register as well as the 'problems' in getting a visa for 12-months, has lead me down the spend 90 days and go else where for a bit, then return.

This was recommended by our accounts and lawyers.

The uncertainty makes it very difficult to commit to more than 12-months rent or to move any of my assets to Spain. In may ways it might be the incentive needed to visit some other European countries which I have never seen such os the UK.

Interested in other views to the origional post.

John,

we employ accountants and lawyers(based in Valbonne) to deal with our tax matters.

Just trying to ensure we don't  end up paying tax in a Country we are only using as a springboard to our next destimation. Having looked at threads and posts on this website there may be members who know more than Accountants and Lawyers. I'm just a scientist and am sceptical of folks who make there fees advising others without really contributing much to the world.

Rossetti

laflauta

As EU citizens we can have free healthcare here,

As you have not shown in your profile where you are,  Where is 'here' ?

 "I am sure that as soon as one registers on the EU Citizen’s Register they are treated by the tax authorities as being tax resident. Others disagree with this."

 Johnzx knows I disagree with him on this, so my reply won't be a surprise. However, this is my take on what I think.

Assuming you don't fall into the activities category, I.e you fiscal status is based on days, then in my view you are not fiscally resident unless you spend 183 days or more. When you become fiscally resident then you have to submit a tax return declaring all your worldwide income, except for certain things which may be exempt in any double taxation agreement. For the UK this includes government service pensions - not state pensions.  I don't know about Ireland, but the DTA's tend to be based on the OECD standard model, which covers this.

 You can be fiscally resident without being on the Central Register of Foreigners if your stays are less than 90 days, but total 183 or more. Now, under the rules of the Central Register of Foreigners, as johnzx says you have to register within 90 days of arriving in Spain. I don't believe this makes you fiscally resident, based on all the information I have reviewed.

  Johnzx says that the Hacienda say you are considered to be a tax resident.  I believe, but I may be wrong, that his view is based on the fact that they tell your bank that you cannot have a non- resident account, because you are a resident, as indeed you are, because you have registered to say so, and it is possible you will remain longer than 183 days, and therefore become fiscally resident. This means that any interest you receive will have tax deducted, which of course, as a non-resident is paid gross. Once you have paid tax,  even if you are a non-resident, you only be able to obtain a refund of anything paid over 12% (if you are a UK resident), but you will be able to offset that against any tax due in the country where you are fiscally. If you don't have any tax to offset it against, then you will just have to bear it.

 Of course once, you are on their radar, you may have to prove that you are fiscally resident in another country, normally by producing a certificate from the relevant tax authorities. In the UK, HMRC will just issue you one which you have to give to the Hacienda. I have a little experience of this, as were registered as fiscally resident in Spain, and we went back to the UK for a short period, although we spent about 4 months in Spain during the year, we were fiscally resident in the UK. To ensure there were no problems, I completed a modelo30 and submitted it to the Hacienda. I had no problems, but for my wife (who has no income) I had to obtain this certificate before they would agree. When we returned I just reregistered. Of course for the year in question I submitted a Form 210 and paid the relevant non-resident tax.

 So, my view is that if you are not fiscally resident, then you don't need to submit the return, but you may need to prove your fiscal residence as I described above, including keeping clear records of the time you spent in the different countries. I have flight records, and the electricity consumption at my property during the period away, clearly shows it is empty.

Notwithstanding what I have written, I would still advise you to seek professional advice if you are worried

""  Johnzx says that the Hacienda say you are considered to be a tax resident.  I believe, but I may be wrong, that his view is based on the fact that they tell your bank that you cannot have a non- resident account, because you are a resident, as indeed you are, because you have registered to say so, and it is possible you will remain longer than 183 days, and therefore become fiscally resident. ""

The hacienda do . It is a completely illegal view & cannot be upheld under Spanish law as the Spanish government considers that the only true indication of residency is fiscal & that requires a stay in excess of 183 days. The registration on the EU register which many regard as " residency " is viewed by the Spanish government as a list of foreigners who live here. ( Which it is .)

They cannot have it both ways .

This post is:-  New Spanish Laws....are they for real, or is it a windup..

Unfortunately ,   Kathyslad has taken the opportunity to rehearse again his opinion on  "I am sure that as soon as one registers on the EU Citizen’s Register they are treated by the tax authorities as being tax resident." 

So, please excuse me if I follow his digression.  I would like to finally clarify a couple "why I am of the opinion that I am."   He still appears to be mistaken.

Johnzx says that the Hacienda say you are considered to be a tax resident.  I believe, but I may be wrong, that his view is based on the fact that they tell your bank that you cannot have a non- resident account, because you are a resident, as indeed you are, because you have registered to say so, and it is possible you will remain longer than 183 days, and therefore become fiscally resident.her country.

 I have explained several times that I base my view on a conversation with The Hacienda (and  a friend  who is a Senior Tax Inspector with the Hacienda who confirmed it).

 You can be fiscally resident without being on the Central Register of Foreigners if your stays are less than 90 days, but total 183 or more. Now, under the rules of the Central Register of Foreigners, as johnzx says you have to register within 90 days of arriving in Spain

Or when you arrive if you intend to stay for 90 or more days permanently.

Also, (At the National Police Office where I work)  if you are tax resident you are required to register on the EU Register.

 laflauta, I don't think that just being EU citizens entitles you to free healthcare here.  We are EU citizens (British) but having not lived in the UK or Europe for many, many years, we are not entitled to free healthcare in Spain unless we pay into the social security system.  I believe (although am up for correction) that there are more aspects to free healthcare in Spain other than just being an EU citizen.

laflauta, thanks for your input. I am aware that I'm not covered by healthcare and will pay as when I require medical attention.

When embarking on our quest to spend 12-months in Spain I never thought it would be so 'difficult'. It was just that we wanted to spend timeout in Spain since for the past 30-years I have only left France to visit Switzerland, Italy and Monaco.

We have a meeting on Monday with our financial advisors and if they can't come up with a scheme that makes it legal for us to live for 12-months in Spain without having to pay tax to the Spanish authorities on our external  earning then we will go elsewhere for our 12-months sebatical.

So when you post Others disagree with this

then I am entitled to post my view so there is balanced opinion

I have explained several times that I base my view on a conversation with The Hacienda  

 I thought I acknowledged that

Johnzx says that the Hacienda say you are considered to be a tax resident.

However, you also said in your original post

I am sure that as soon as one registers on the EU Citizen’s Register they are treated by the tax authorities as being tax resident. Others disagree with this.

I understand you didn't ask them about this, only a frozen bank account, which is why I said

 I believe, but I may be wrong, that his view is based on the fact that they tell your bank that you cannot have a non- resident account,

Or when you arrive if you intend to stay for 90 or more days permanently.

I agree with that.

New Spanish Laws....are they for real, or is it a windup..

YES,  I think this is becoming a wind up  !!!!!!

I give up.
 

Ob. I hope you understood what you needed to know before it went off at a tangent.

 I believe my post presents a balanced argument as to why the original poster need not worry about the new laws, setting the counter argument as to why others disagreed with the point in your orignal post. If you post that other disagree, then unless the counter argument is posted, the original poster in unable to make a balanced decision.