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Good post Bobaol in my opinion. I agree with all the points you make. Johnzx - I am not arguing against the fact that people were misled or whatever, but I am focusing on the now - and there is a misunderstanding of what the EU does and does not impose.
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Bob
The EU simply states a EU citizen should get the same level of treatment offered to its own citizens, which is what happens.
I accept what you are saying but this example is indicative of what I mean.
If the UK decided to exclude citizens from other EU countries by creating new rules, would not the EU prevent them from doing so ?
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You mean the same way they have told Spain to do this? OK, Spain is a bit slower but they have started as witness many people under retirement age applying for, and getting, healthcards recently. UK could change to a contribution based system but imagine the outcry when the professional doleys start losing out. And why just EU? Towns like Luton, Birmingham, Leicester, Bradford and many sections of London are swamped by SE Asians and Africans, west Indians etc, not EU. EU countries pay for their citizens to be treated, the same way Britain pays for expats in other European countries, or did you think it was all one way traffic? And that's part of being in a community, I suppose. What if Britain did pull out. Would Spain still allow you (and me) to receive service pensions without paying tax just because tax has already been paid in UK? That's something the EU has brought in, no double taxation so it works both ways. The EU may be guilty of some draconian rules but they apply to everyone. It's just that the UK bends over backwards to implement them. In my very humble opinion, a UK failing, not a EU one.
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Bob
Towns like Luton, Birmingham, Leicester, Bradford and many sections of London are swamped by SE Asians and Africans, west Indians etc, not EU.
The BNP might agree with this but the reality is very different. Most of the racial groups you mentioned are 'settled communities' of third and fourth generation who make these cities vibrant and interesting as well as making a strong contribution to local economies. Curiously enough they are also EU citizens
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Whilst I agree that the immigrant population, in the main, provide a good mix (although I wouldn't describe Leicester as vibrant) and there are a lot of 3rd and 4th generation non-EU citizens, at the last census 5 million people living in UK were born outside the EU compared to 2.3 million from the EU. Not that that makes any difference and I was simply countering the argument that the UK is being overrun by Eastern Europeans and withdrawing from the EU would solve Britain's immigration problems. It should also be pointed out that it is not just UK that is attracting EU immigration which some press opponents would have you believe. Germany and France have even greater numbers from both EU and non-EU countries. It's also not only the UK which pays in more than it gets out of it, either.
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I find that a bit offensive to compare the views being expressed here to the BNP views. the point is that by far and away most immigrants in the UK - settled or not - are from the old commonwealth.
I would dispute the assertion that they are all happily settled - quite a few second generation women do not even speak English, and are kept apart from the insistence on seperate schools - which the UK has happily obliged in spite of the fact it allows girls to be second or even third class!!!
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Roly you have a very outdated view of Britain's ethnic minorities - maybe you've been away too long. Yes most immigrants to Britain came from the 'Old Commonwealth' 50-60 years ago but guess what has happened in the meantime? They've had kids and their kids have had kids and so on. The point is, whether you like it or not, that current generation are also citizens of the EU and not 'immigrants'. Unless your definition of immigrant is anyone who is non-white?
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First, I have not been away too long, and I have business and family in the UK. I am a young working man with a background in the legal profession in the north of England. Sadly, I have been involved in quite of few cases of 'settled' communities abusing girls and women - and some of that through the UKs education system which allows the girls to be segrated and ghettoised. I do not have a happy clappy multi cultural view if that is what you mean.
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Bob
And that's part of being in a community, I suppose. What if Britain did pull out. Would Spain still allow you (and me) to receive service pensions without paying tax just because tax has already been paid in UK? That's something the EU has brought in, no double taxation so it works both ways.
Double taxation agreements exist between many countries, most which have nothing to do with the EU. AS for the government pensions. The agreement works both ways, Spanish former government employees do not pay tax in UK if they live there.
Spain and UK have had the agreement since 1976,
The EU did not exist until 1993
QUOTE:_
On 1 January 1973 the UK joined the European Economic Community (EEC). The EEC was an economic free trade mechanism between sovereign states; it now no longer exists, having been replaced by the European Union.
England and the rest of the UK joined the European Union on 1 November 1993 when the Treaty on European Union (otherwise known as the Treaty of Maastricht) came into force. No country could have joined before November 1993 as the European Union did not exist till the Treaty on European Union came into force.
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Mention has been made of imposing laws from the EU on the UK.
Well perhaps it’s just as essential to reflect on the fact that the European Parliament has encountered a growing number of problems from European citizens who have purchased property across member state borders, and there has been a major failure to protect property rights across the European Union which has had consequences for the internal market, legal affairs and the fundamental rights to property. Shouldn't people be asking the question therefore how will these continuing flaws in the protection of property rights across member states be resolved?
I wonder also if people are aware of the following:
Under the section effective regulatory enforcement within the dimensions of the World Justice Project's rule of law, it states the following aims :
Government regulations are effectively enforced
Government regulations are applied and enforced without improper influence
Administrative proceedings are conducted without unreasonable delay
Due process is respected in administrative proceedings
The Government does not expropriate without adequate compensation
Well how effective have the European Parliament and Commission been in ensuring that these basic principles are adhered to within the free movement of people and their ensuing property rights? Until the European Union can ensure basic principles of the rule of law are consistently adhered to across their member states, then I suspect all citizens will remain at risk.
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We get this constant threat that things will change if the UK pulls out of the EU, the major one being the EU will stop doing business with the UK. It's a pathetic form of scaremongering. I live and work in Spain, and do business regularly with people and businesses inside and outside the EU. Why on earth would I not do business with a UK outside the EU in similar circumstances, if the price is right, the product or service is right, and the delivery fits my schedule? The EU absolutely MUST do business with 'outsiders' It cannot function in the global economy otherwise. So come on David Cameron, allow the people to decide. The world is a very much bigger place than the EU Franco/German 'empire' builders think!
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Why is everybody so sure that if we pulled out we would suffer, how does anyone know this, after all not one person knew what would happen when we went in...except the so called "Experts" on everything, you know those same experts who make massive balls ups everyday in the Banking World, NHS, Government ect etc, then walk away from the problem they caused.
The EU countries as a whole might just be sitting back and waiting for one country to be brave enough to make the first move on leaving before they all make the move because everyone you talk to in many countries all want out, and back to how it was, even to the point of using their own currency, which brings in another point which i am sure some expert will know the answer to, why, if this union is so good, and the one currency for all is so fantastic, hasn't every country destroyed it's pre-euro currency instead of hiding it away, Spain still prices it's good up in Peseta's with Euros, my Spanish bank account gives my balance in Euros and Peseta's, why wont they let go?
We traded with many countries world wide before the EU and will trade again world wide, if New Zealand has lamb at the correct price we will buy it, same goes for anything and everything, it has to be said some good has come from this EU package, but it also has to be said for every one good thing their seems to be a thousand stupid things implied on us.
Italy said " You (EU) can impose any rules or laws on us as you like, we wont fight them because to do that that will cost us money, we just wont abide by them if we don't like them" kinda makes a mockery of we are all in it together.
Cameron and his like can say what they like, pretend to be know all in everything, and just like blair did walk away when the going gets to much for them, and they have lined the bank account. Your not supposed to be allowed to work on one persons car without at least five plus years hands on training, but can know whats good for sixty plus million people with no training what so ever.
Getting a bit fed up with "Experts" telling me all the time how well of i will be if i take there advice, but when i do as they do i end up in court with a fine.
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I suspect this is a two edged implement.
OK it might play well to the UK voters, but it is also a warning shot to the EU that it’s systems, rules etc. need overhauling and if they don’t get in right the EU could disintegrate.
And it’s not just the UK that know that.
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At some point we need to decide whether we are in Europe or out - no more half measures .
either in the tent peeing out or outside the tent peeing in
end of story
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Totally agree Clarice, although I'm sure you meant peering 
The right of self determination for the people is paramount, we are being told all the time that the residents of Gibraltar and the Falkland's have it. We need to sort Scotland out first though, it could come to pass that they are in it and what's left of the UK are out - that's food for thought!
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I remember joining a ‘European Common Market’ but don’t remember agreeing to join a community who would drown us in an ocean of draconian rules and regulations that apply in some countries but are optional in others. It’s time UK stopped bowing to Brussels and got a grip. We don’t need the EU and never have done – it costs UK a lot of money for nothing.
UK has never benefited fiscally from EU membership as the sums paid into the ‘pot’ have always exceeded the benefits received. Since 1979 it is estimated that the sum of £228 billion has been paid into the union and received back only £143 billion, therefore UK has subsidised Europe to the tune of around £85 billion.
The deficit would be much larger had Mrs. Thatch not gone in with her handbag swinging in 1984 securing a healthy agricultural rebate for UK, only for ‘Tony’ to agree under pressure from EU to reduce the rebate by 20% in 2005.
Many EU rules and laws were ostensibly designed to create a level playing field at massive cost, so that we could all conduct business throughout the union but they are an absolute waste of time and favour those who work the system, to the detriment of the ‘goodies’. The cost of regulating and enforcing complicated and unwanted EU business rules is in the region of £85 billion per annum.
And the cost of membership to UK?
£9.7 million per hour, or £162,291.00 per minute, costing £1,380.00 for every man, woman and child in Britain.
As I have said before – Britain is one of the very few who stand to attention and salute when the blue flag gets hoisted. We can and do conduct business worldwide and the EU is only part of the picture.
The EU has proved that it can’t function in its present form and thank God that we didn’t go into the Euro – can you imagine the state UK would be in now if we had gone the whole hog?
Get out asap – worst ways up UK will be a few billion quid a year in pocket and best ways up it can take control of its own affairs once again. Norway and Switzerland have demonstrated that they can manage admirably outside the EU and are considerably richer than their EU neighbours.
Why do I get the feeling that the big guns are swiveling towards my humble homestead after this rant?
Woodbug
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Woodbug
Many would agree with you, many wouldn't - thats why we need the well overdue simple yes/no referendum.
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How can people possibly decide to commit to something if they perceive the European Parliament and Commission are not prepared to review, revise and swiftly correct basic principles that fundamentally affect consumer rights across all of their member states? There has to be a commitment in the form of swift workable reform from within the EU, its parliamentarians and Commission, to not only reform these failings but also address many more issues that affect ALL EU citizens, before (sadly)many will feel comfortable remaining in Europe.
In these intervening years the EU parliamentarians and their Commission need to prove how committed they are in the form of action and not words to resolve these major concerns that affect everyone's lives.
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Woodbug I think you meant, you remember UK joining the EEC. There was a vote on that.
On 1 January 1973 the UK joined the European Economic Community (EEC). The EEC was an economic free trade mechanism between sovereign states; it now no longer exists, having been replaced by the European Union in 1993
I don't remember anyone asking the UK population if they wanted to join the EU.
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Bit pedantic John!
Common Market or EEC does it make any difference really as it has morphed into the EU anyway without our help and to the best of my knowledge, without our agreement or blessing either?
I remember the vote (referendum) well, it was in June 1975 under the stewardship of Mr. Wilson and I voted to get out and still hold the same view today, as I have not seen any benefits from the euro-glee club.
Our business in UK and Iberia as been battered by the EU cudgel unmercifully for years as a result of being tied into the shambles it started out as and has continued to be since.
Can anyone actually tell me exactly where and how the UK benefits from the Common Market – EU – ECC or call it what you will…………… I have several good names for it but I fear the moderator of EOS would ban be for life if I were to suggest any though.
Looks like Mrs. Merkel is weakening a bit - she has indicated that she and Dave should have a natter over a cup of coffee to see if they can find a way of preventing a referendum, no doubt because she knows what the result would be and with UKIP hovering at the station of the EU gravy-train it don’t look too good.
Woodbug
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