The coming worldwide credit crunch

Post reply   Start new thread
:: New - Old :: Old - New

Pages: Previous | ... | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | ... | Next |

Forum home :: Latest threads :: Search forums
The Comments
05 Mar 2008 12:24 PM by TJ222 Star rating. 317 posts Send private message

Unfortunatly banks tend to get their money back one way or another. Everyone will suffer as they raise their charges for all products and services. I notice arrangement fees in the uK have gone from a few hundred pounds to a few percent of the mortgage, talk about inflation. They will increase charges for running your account, DDs, letters etc. Everything they do will go up and morttgages in particular will be very strict, I imagine repayment only and 25 to 30% down with very strict valuations.

Banks are in the business of making money and they will get it from us one way or another. unfortunatley this will also be a massive drag on the property market as we experience the exact opposite of easy money.

As you say Rixxy there will be a few busineses spotting a profit opportunity in chaseing the debts in the UK.



_______________________




Like 0      
05 Mar 2008 10:56 AM by Rixxy Star rating in San Pedro. 2010 posts Send private message

Rixxy´s avatar

I understand what you are saying Dan, but in the late 80s early 90s UK, after so many banks were caught with writing off the difference in the outstanding mortgages and the sales price, legislaion was changed to allow the banks to collect the debts. They had a 12 year time limit to do so and I knew of several people who thought they were clear, being chased after 5 years or even longer!

I see no reason why the debts will not be sold across borders and I also know of a company seeting up in the UK who will have a branch in the UK to do so!

Its a risk for sure.



_______________________

Quite frankly m'dear, I don't give a damn!

www.herbalmarbella.com




Like 0      
05 Mar 2008 10:01 AM by morerosado Star rating. 6927 posts Send private message

morerosado´s avatar
Just proves I do read posts, Dan.

_______________________



Like 0      
05 Mar 2008 9:59 AM by TJ222 Star rating. 317 posts Send private message

If Spanish banks cannot chase defaulters then it will be much worse for existing home owners as banks will be stuck with bad loans on their books and will be forced to sell property at distressed prices, further adding to supply and depressing prices. Also future mortgage finance will be harder and more expensive to obtain, if they can lend atall with so much bad debt on their books. I see minimum 25% down soon. This is going to reduce the numbers of new buyers to a trickle, who has 25% these days?

_______________________




Like 0      
04 Mar 2008 7:59 PM by Just Dan Star rating. 440 posts Send private message

 

Whoops

Thanks soooo much

Dan





Like 0      
04 Mar 2008 7:42 PM by morerosado Star rating. 6927 posts Send private message

morerosado´s avatar

Dan, I think you meant LEGAL.

Now any action against these may just be more difficult as the Banks surely have a legal duty to ensure they lent against property that is illegal.



_______________________



Like 0      
04 Mar 2008 7:37 PM by TJ222 Star rating. 317 posts Send private message

Roberto

Its depressing alright, but unfortunatley thats reality. Even cash is being devalued at 15% a year in Euroland thanks to the money printing and expansion of money supply. In the UK M3 is growing at 13% which explains why everything you buy is going up in price.

The good news is if you know what to do you can protect yourself and thi shas been the purpose of this thread. You need to invest in stuff which is valuable and can't meaningfully be increased in supply. So that counts out Spainisg property and BMW X5s and flat creen tvs.

Look at oil, gold silver platinum, palladium, copper, sugar etc the lsit goes on.  Plenty of stuff to protect yourself, buyt you have to be quick as the jig is up and the market is catching on. Once people realise that paper currencies are not a store of value then there will be a rush to the exit like you have never seen in your life. But first come the strikes of public workers and the unrest as people struggle to mak ends meet amidst soaring inflation and stagnant wages.

Silver is up from 4$ to 20$ an ounce in the last 2 years. Its up nearly 40% just this year as people try and exchange paper money for something real. Go0 back and read my bit about the 5 pound note and what it promises to pay. I have been warning you all as best as possible.




This message was last edited by TJ222 on 3/4/2008.

_______________________




Like 0      
04 Mar 2008 7:26 PM by Just Dan Star rating. 440 posts Send private message

 

Hi Rixxy

From onfo that I have the Spanish Banks will not follow to the U.K Not sure about the U,K Banks.

Many will be giving the keys back because of the legal status of their property makes it difficult/impossible to sell or live in.

Now any action against these may just be more difficult as the Banks surely have a legal duty to ensure they lent against property that is legal.

If the property is NEVER going to be made legal then may be its a case against the Banks or the Bank guarantee.

 

Dan




This message was last edited by Just Dan on 3/4/2008.

This message was last edited by Just Dan on 3/4/2008.



Like 0      
04 Mar 2008 7:24 PM by Just Dan Star rating. 440 posts Send private message

 

Hi Rixxy

From onfo that I have the Spanish Banks will not follow to the U.K Not sure about the U,K Banks.

Many will be giving the keys back because of the legal status of their property makes it difficult/impossible to sell or live in.

Now any action against these may just be more difficult as the Banks surely have a legal duty to ensure they lent against property that is illegal.

If the property is never going to be made legal then may be its a case against the Banks or the Bank guarantee.

 

Dan





Like 0      
04 Mar 2008 6:33 PM by Rixxy Star rating in San Pedro. 2010 posts Send private message

Rixxy´s avatar

Hi Guys - and to add to that its a fact I get 5-6 people daily wanting to auction their properties. Most of these wont sell as they owe more on a mortgage than they will actually sell them for.

I spoke to 2 yesterday and 3 people today who will be not paying their mortgages anymore and letting repossession take place.

I have advised them they may get chased in their home country for any difference by the lender bank, but I am not 100% sure of the facts of this. I will be finding out if the debt will or can be sold across borders and also if a person non resident claims bankruptcy in Spain, whether that protects them! Certainly interesting but also scary as well!

Banks are taking longer to reposess and the courts are full adding to the delay in it. A mess for sure!

Shame I cant charge 1000 dollars for my advice really!!!



_______________________

Quite frankly m'dear, I don't give a damn!

www.herbalmarbella.com




Like 0      
04 Mar 2008 4:46 PM by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4551 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

TJ, thanks for your insight in response to the article I posted, as ever, very interesting...........but OMG, so depressing as well

I was wondering if I should think about buying property in the US now, but since that country is "going down the toilet", seems like not such a good idea either. UK is screwed too, apparently. Is anywhere worth investing at the moment? Stock markets are shaky, interest on bank deposits is dropping - what should we do? I'm beginning to wish I was completely skint, then I wouldn't have to worry!



_______________________

 

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




Like 0      
04 Mar 2008 10:44 AM by morerosado Star rating. 6927 posts Send private message

morerosado´s avatar
Mistype, TJ ???   I didn't advertise it.

_______________________



Like 0      
04 Mar 2008 9:04 AM by TJ222 Star rating. 317 posts Send private message

More

Can you explain why one seems to be 145 and the other 345k. I know the 345k one has a swimming pool on its side, but even so, the novelty must wear off soon, ie when the water falls out.



_______________________




Like 0      
04 Mar 2008 8:36 AM by TJ222 Star rating. 317 posts Send private message

Hi Roberto

Thanks for your article, I read it with interest and some incredularity.

I just started posting on the downturn in price thread as i wanted to contribute, but as I didn't start it, I didn't want to hijack it, so returned to my own thread. Essentially its the same subject, so one thread will do. Also some people seem irritated by my comments, so I will post on my own thread and then if people don't want to read it, they know not to.

Back to the article a number of points are apparent:

1. The Spain houseing market was in trouble long before the credit crunch was even apparent. I think from talking to local experts like Rixxy, prices probably peaked around 2006. Once prices stopped riseing and started to fall the jig was up. Altho interest was originally started by genuine buyers in the early days, those people who wanted to relocate to Spain and enjoy a new way of life, or those wanting to retire, the latter part of the boom was driven by holiday homes and investment.

The whole concept of holiday homes for the masses was always fundamentlly flawed, infact i think it was a concept dreamed up by big developers and estate agents to sell huge numbers of two bed apartments that would never normally have been sold. We are told now that people have trouble paying their bills without resorting to debt, or filling the car, so how can they afford a holiday home, something that is normally the reserve of the rich?

It made sense for a few years because prices were riseing and the poor punters could be convinced that not only would the apartment be self financing, it was also their route to easy riches and a secure and confident retirement. Who wouldn't want to buy one under these conditions?

Of course sadly this was an illusion as riches for the masses always is. Anyone who had any sense and asked about supply and demand or rental occupancy/returns would have realised this. Not to mention the new apartment block going up just next door, with another 800 hapless punters looking for tenants for identical and faceless units.

So my point is that the houseing market in Spain was a dangerous and unsustainable boom which was destined to collapse in time what ever happened. I think it would have collapsed in time even if the wider world was not heading into recession. People who bought at the height of the boom got variable rate mortgages at 2-3% and since then rates have nearly doubled, so that alone would have put a lot of people under stress even if they had tenants.

The fact is that the boom was driven by investment demand for holiday homes, and now that is gone and the investment has turned into anything but an investment, there are simply not nearly enough genuine buyers to sustain the market. Also confidence has gone and even the most clueless punter must have by now realised that the game is up.

2. As if No1 was not bad enough we do now have a credit crisis and a general bursting of the bubble in houseing in countries like the UK where there are genuine reasons for high prices, ie good local wages and limited supply ( none of which even remotely applies to Spain). Spain's houseing market was driven by high prices in western Europe and the ease and availability of cheap credit from equity release and in the latter stages UK lenders jumping on the bandwagon. Once prices stopped riseing in the UK ( which was laways inevitable at some point) alot of the demand in spain would vanish as people could no longer borrow from their own homes, or had the confidence to spend lots of money.

3. Finaly if spain was to dissapear from the world map overnight, the world economy would not even miss a beat. What happens in spain is simply irrelevant to the world as Spain's invfluence is so small. Its a tiny tiny contributer to world GDP, and doesn't export oil or anything much that the world coudn't get from someone else. Despite the fact that Zapatero thinks he is a world statesman, outside Spain he is a nobody and infact probably the world is well aware of his shaky foundations that are inconsistant with his ego.

So to summarise wether spain has any subprime is irrelevant. What matters is the wider credit market, confidence in property generally and the health of western European borrowers and the US economy. As I have stated before the US represents 25-30% of worldwide GDP so the US consumer is paramount. If the US goes down the toilet as looks likely then Europe is going to suffer too.

Sadly Spain's property boom was built on such shaky unsustainable foundations that it was going to collapse anyway. Given the condition of the outside world that collapse is now going to happen much quicker.

Sure there are  a few genuine lifestyle buyers who want to buy for the right reasons and have sensible finances and don't need rent. However these people are paying prices that were a product of a massive boom and easy credit. Now these conditions are gone, the prices must adjust to pre boom levels. if they are not very careful these genuine buyers are likely to suffer from the consequences of others. This is the message I have been trying to get across.



_______________________




Like 0      
03 Mar 2008 7:27 PM by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4551 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

Hey TJ, how about starting a new thread, the TJ222 thread? I'm getting confused about where to post, this one or Downturn in Price!

A bit of cut'n paste of my own:

Extract from a report by the Asociación Hipotecaria Española (Spanish Mortgage Association) on 2008 forecasts:

The second half of 2007 was marked by the US subprime mortgage (mortgage loans with
low credit rating) crisis which directly or indirectly affected nearly all of the world’s finance
markets.
In the case of the Spanish mortgage market, neither the legislative framework in force
before the crisis, nor that reformed by Act 41/2007, allow for titles to be issued guaranteed with
subprime credits.
The Bank of Spain swiftly reported that there were no significant investments in this type of
asset by the Spanish financial institutions. (really?!)
Hence since the beginning of the US crisis there was evidence that the Spanish mortgage
market was not directly affected by this type of risk.
The initial confusion about the limits and importance of the real contamination of the
markets and financial institutions became a confidence crisis which in one way or another
affected and cast doubt on the Spanish mortgage market.
The first doubts about the Spanish market were levelled precisely from foreign institution
and markets which, shortly afterwards, were confirmed as the most seriously affected in Europe
due to their investments in US subprime.
Unfortunately certain statements from the same Spanish finance sector have also
contributed towards creating a climate of distrust, and have been used by some foreign media
in reports or articles with little technical rigor but with broad media impact. (understatement?)
Along the same lines, opinion articles and “research” is still being published focusing on
isolated geographic areas which in no way reflect the national reality and which lead to a
“distorted” market evaluation.

Your thoughts, sir?



_______________________

 

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




Like 0      
03 Mar 2008 11:04 AM by TJ222 Star rating. 317 posts Send private message

 There now seems to be a trend in which homeowners who are able to make payments but have negatiive equity are walking away as they don't see the point in paying 2to3 times as much for a mortgage as compared with renting, particularly when there house is worth so much less than they paid for it.

The problem here is that someone has to pay for this "freshstart" and it will be the average man in the street. How many investors or banks are going to put up money in the future for mortgages if borrowers are just allowed to walk away. This will do so much damage to the lending industry that mortgages if available will be more expensive and lower loans to value. The only way you will be able to get a loan is by putting down 25%. There is no free lunch anymore and home prices will have to adjust to this new lending regime. No bottom in sight for houseing in the US.

From the Wall st journal :

Some financial advisers are even encouraging homeowners who are upside down to consider foreclosure, which they see as a purely financial decision with limited negative consequences. YouWalkAway.com, a Web site started in January that offers foreclosure counseling to homeowners, advises that borrowers who default on one mortgage can typically get another mortgage between two and four years after a foreclosure. Then, "before you know it, you will have this behind you and a fresh start!" the site says.

A foreclosure will stay as a "strong negative" on your credit report for as long as seven years, though the impact on a borrower's credit score declines over time, says Mike Campbell, chief operating officer of Fair Isaac Corp., maker of the popular FICO credit score.

"Every single person we talk to either owes 100% [of their equity] or is upside down anywhere from $10,000 to $300,000," says John Maddux, co-founder of YouWalkAway.com, which charges borrowers about $1,000 for advice. Mr. Maddux says the site has received more than 190,000 visits and about 20% of their clients are investors.



_______________________




Like 0      
03 Mar 2008 7:12 AM by TJ222 Star rating. 317 posts Send private message

Are we approaching the end game for paper currencies?

``You can't find a currency that you trust as a store of value, so you create a new one,''

Gold Beats Financial Assets as Investors Seek Haven (Update1)

By Millie Munshi and Pham-Duy Nguyen

 

March 3 (Bloomberg) -- Gold, silver, platinum and palladium may be the best-performing financial assets this year as inflation and slowing growth erode the value of the world's major currencies, bonds and stocks.

Precious metals have risen at least twice as fast as the euro and yen in 2008 and returned six to 20 times as much as U.S. Treasuries. The Standard & Poor's 500 Index and all other major gauges of equities are down. Gold for immediate delivery reached an all-time high of $980.98 an ounce today, while silver on Feb. 29 was the most expensive since 1980.

Investors are using metals to preserve their buying power as the U.S. dollar falls to a record and inflation accelerates. Gold, platinum and palladium may gain at least 30 percent this year as Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke prioritizes cutting interest rates over controlling consumer prices, said Ron Goodis, a trader at Equidex Brokerage Group Inc. in Closter, New Jersey, who has been buying and selling gold since 1978.

``It is hard to see how the monetary environment is going to be anything but supportive of higher gold and commodity prices anytime this year,'' said Chip Hanlon, who holds gold as manager of $1.5 billion at Delta Global Advisors Inc. in Huntington Beach, California. ``If currencies don't carry a favorable interest over metals, then why not own gold or platinum?''

Most metals are traded in dollars, tying their prices to how much the currency buys in the world economy. Gold rose 36 percent since Sept. 18, when Bernanke made the first of five cuts to the target rate for overnight loans between banks in order to stave off a U.S. recession. It's up 15 percent since breaking the 1980 record in January, and may rise another 33 percent to $1,300 an ounce by yearend, Goodis said.

Platinum, Palladium

Platinum and palladium -- sister metals used to make jewelry, catalytic converters for cars, and dental crowns and bridges -- have advanced even more this year.

Platinum futures in New York gained 42 percent and touched a record $2,214.50 an ounce Feb. 22. It may advance 38 percent more to $3,000 by yearend, said Goodis, who correctly predicted its surge earlier this year. Palladium will probably reach $750 an ounce by June, a 30 percent gain from the current price, he said.

Silver will advance another 26 percent to $25 an ounce sometime this year, estimated David Davis, an analyst at Credit Suisse Standard Securities in Johannesburg.

Bernanke lowered rates faster than any Fed chairman since 1982, and inflation in 2007 jumped 4.1 percent, the most in 17 years. U.S. housing starts in December fell to the lowest level since 1991, and fallout from the collapse of the U.S. subprime mortgage market has triggered $181 billion in writedowns and credit losses at the world's largest financial firms.

Record Low Dollar

Turmoil in the financial markets and slowing economic growth pose ``greater risks'' than inflation, Bernanke told the House Financial Services Committee in Washington on Feb. 27. The Fed ``will act in a timely manner as needed to support growth and to provide adequate insurance against downside risks,'' he said, signaling he was prepared to make a sixth reduction in rates.

The U.S. Dollar Index, which tracks the currency against six major counterparts, touched 73.531 today, the lowest since its start in 1973. Even gold traded in euros, yen and pounds reached records this year as consumer prices rose around the world, eroding the appeal of currencies as an asset.

The Bank of England cut borrowing costs twice since November. European Central Bank President Jean-Claude Trichet resisted similar moves because inflation in the 15 nations that use the euro rose to a 14-year high of 3.2 percent in January.

`Under Your Bed'

``You can't find a currency that you trust as a store of value, so you create a new one,'' said Robert Fullem, vice president of U.S. corporate foreign-exchange sales at Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi in New York. ``Safety ends up being a piece of metal. You can stick it under your bed, and sometimes that's your best bet.''

The rally in metals may be fleeting should some of the biggest holders sell or the dollar rebound.

The U.S., the largest shareholder of the International Monetary Fund, said Feb. 25 it may allow the IMF to sell as many as 401 metric tons of gold to meet budget shortfalls. The Fed forecasts food and energy costs will stop climbing in the months ahead. Frankfurt-based Deutsche Bank AG, the world's biggest currency trader, expects the dollar to rise to $1.37 against the euro by yearend.

``Gold is not a currency -- you're never going to be able to use gold coins at the 7-Eleven,'' said Ralph Preston, an analyst at Heritage West Financial Inc. in San Diego.

Gold, which once backed the U.S. dollar and British pound, reached a 20-year low of $253.20 in July 1999 as U.K. Prime Minister Gordon Brown, then the chancellor of the exchequer, spearheaded an effort to sell the precious metal and invest in government bonds.

Northern Rock Run

That year Peter Ward, a mining analyst at Lehman Brothers Inc., predicted the metal would hover at about $280 over the following three to four years, as other central banks followed Brown's lead. By the end of 2003, it was at $417 because the dollar had been falling. Ward declined to comment last week, and New York-based Lehman estimates gold will average $880 in 2008.

Gold & Silver Investments Ltd., a Dublin-based precious metals broker, said demand for gold there jumped 20 percent from mid-September to mid-October as the subprime crisis spurred depositors at Northern Rock Plc to make the first run on a U.K. bank in more than a century.

At least 95 percent of the new buyers have kept their money in the bullion, Mark O'Byrne, Gold & Silver's executive director, said in an interview on Feb. 26.

``They were very, very nervous and wanted security,'' O'Byrne said. ``Some were putting their entire savings into gold. They were that nervous.''



_______________________




Like 0      
02 Mar 2008 11:37 AM by morerosado Star rating. 6927 posts Send private message

morerosado´s avatar

Hi TJ, it was 349,500€ actually for 45 sq m.  

I'd be far more worried about the swimming pool on its side in second one.  (Fancy not rotating photo !)








This message was last edited by morerosado on 3/2/2008.

_______________________



Like 0      
02 Mar 2008 10:28 AM by TJ222 Star rating. 317 posts Send private message

29 Feb 2008 11:02 PM by Eva2008 Star rating in Reading. 152 posts Send private message

Eva2008´s avatar

Sorry, on a completely different note, I love the little bird running out of the shop with the packet of crisps! He looks so naughty.

by the way, I no longer listen to the news, I just wait for TJ's postings, as he seems to tell it like it is. well done.





Like 0      

Pages: Previous | ... | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | ... | Next |

Post reply    Start new thread


Previous Threads

Code of Conduct. - 2 posts
Morerosado's 1000th Post - Congratulations! - 10 posts
'Evening' classes - 2 posts
Licence update - 11 posts
Completion - 2 posts
Mortgage valuations - 1 posts
ACCIDENT IN MARBELLA FRIDAY 17TH AUGUST - 3 posts
Be careful of promises from agents! - 10 posts
Legal or not? - 2 posts
New blow-in, the litter and the Car Hire Fuel Charges - 25 posts
Renting a property - 7 posts
child care - 0 posts
Cash Payments - 5 posts
Barry - 0 posts
Does anyone use an escrow service or similar for holiday rentals? - 2 posts
What else do we need for renting? - 11 posts
Shops and a Restaurant ??? - 0 posts
Viva estates watch - 11 posts
Long term Rental Cabopino to Elviria Desperatley needed - 1 posts
Which air-conditioning do you recommend? - 9 posts
Why the star system - 2 posts
BEACH RECOMMENDATION - CDS - 14 posts
POWER OF ATTORNEY - 12 posts
Ambasun - 23 posts
Help! How can i help pensioner with country house deed problem? - 0 posts

Number of posts in this thread: 716

DISCLAIMER:  All opinions posted on these message boards are the opinion solely of the poster and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of Eye on Spain, its servants or agents.


1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 |
Our Weekly Email Digest
Name:
Email:


This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse you are agreeing to our use of cookies. More information here. x