Property Purchase has gone wrong!

1. They think it already is. Of course: all Spaniards believe Spain is the best country in the world. 
2. The authorities are corrupt. Statement of the bleedin' obvious
3. They cannot be bothered. Ditto

Brian, it's a curious system to anyone who is not used to it, but then again , the English system would seem curious to a Spaniard. In fact, I understand the English system is quite unusual compared to many other European countries, which are actually probably more similar to Spain. But when you think about it, most property transactions in England don't actually start with a lawyer, they start with the agent & vendor. The main difference is, buyers don't have to part with any cash until long after they've involved their lawyer.

The very reason you should be wary of paying a deposit to an agent in Spain, however, is the very same reason agents here take a deposit: there is no trust or honour in the system (and with good reason). In England, when a buyer makes an offer and the vendor accepts, the agent takes the property off the market pending both parties instructing their repsective legal representatives. No money changes hands; the buyer trusts the agent to stop marketing the property, and trusts the vendor not to gazump him (it does happen, but is probably relatively rare), and the vendor trusts the buyer to go through with the purchase. But with no deposit paid at this stage, all parties are vulnerable and the system does depend on an element of trust an honour. That doesn't exist in Spain. As for " all consumer rights in place" - yeah, right!

Agents certainly used to take a deposit to cover their commission, to ensure they get paid by the vendor - again, in England the vendor is trusted not to cheat the agent out of his commission. I've bought & sold plenty in Spain, but haven't used an agent for years, so can't say if it's still the same, but they used to include in their pre-sale contract something about deducting "reasonable expenses" from the buyer's deposit should either they or the vendor pull out of the sale, before passing the remainder on to the vendor or returning it to the buyer. In practice, reasonable expenses would erode the entire deposit and neither the vendor nor the  buyer ended up with anything anyway. So yes, they often make their "commission" without even selling a property.

Spain. 

This message was last edited by Roberto on 11/03/2017.

Hi Gary, in the UK you deal with an agent, true.

The agent receives your offer and negotiates with the seller, the sale price is agreed between buyer and seller through the agent (with their 'special attention').

Then the sale is agreed subject to contract, meaning satisfactory checks, surveys, funds available from the buyer, and a contract is drawn up including the legal conveyence procedure, survey and valuation. (In Scotland the survey is mandatory, in the rest of the UK the survey is taken up by approximately 25% of buyers, the valuation is not a survey)

The conveyence solicitor, bank and surveyor work together to establish ownership, proper title and access, condition, and value is estimated in the market place and location and will highlight any serious issues about structure etc.

No money is changing hands until the procedure is 'completed' and the title is ready to be passed to the new owner.  If any 'deals' are done they will be illegal in that process.  

In Spain it seems more like buying a property down the pub at times, I cant comment globally though, thats a bit of a stretch!!

In England, the buyer has to PAY for survey, valuation, conveyancing etc., with no legal committment on the part of the vendor, who at anytime before exchange could just back out, leaving the buyer out of pocket. It doesn't often happen, because most vendors/agents are honourable and can be trusted not to screw you around.

And then there's Spain.

Hi Roberto. 

Yes the buyer and seller has to pay or conveyancing, nothing's free in the world really!   

The last housing act (2006?) had a requirement of a home information pack which provided all th details from th seller to the buyer (at the sellers expense) so the information only needed paying for once and a sale was 'ready to go' at the point of sale (almost). 

This was repealed by the incoming conservative government within weeks.   It's still on the statute books though if required.  

Very few reasons for anyone to pull out if the contract procedure starts, but people die, lose jobs etc so always a chance that will happen for legitimate reasons.  Still a very safe system that has developed over here though.   Maybe learning from mistakes of the past is a good thing in Spain?  

Why would you give a deposit of any sort to a estate agent ...Any money that's to be handed over should only be given to your legal representative .

Just to clarify, we did pay the deposit to the agent, we knew that we were going to be asked for this, it wasn’t a surprise.  But we didn’t have a solicitor appointed, we made the offer on a Friday and they wanted us to pay the deposit immediately, so we said about not having a lawyer appointed and the agent (Freddy Friendly) said – we can accept it and hold it for you ………..  Great we said.  So we paid the deposit to them, on Monday and then got the contract through afterwards.  We sent this to the lawyer.  The contract is fine – nothing wrong with the wording, in fact it looks very similar to others I have seen since when I have googled “reservation contract”.  The only thing is that the contract is unsigned, but this will normally be done by the last party signing the contract which would have been the sellers.  It wasn’t done, but we do have confirmation that the contract was forwarded to our lawyer on 9 May with both parties signatures.   

We asked many times for the money to be passed to our lawyer, and this has not happened.  When the sale looked as though it was going to progress we pressed in almost every email for them to pass the money on, they failed on each occasion to do so. 

Our lawyer advised on some small elements of wording to the contract it wasn’t significant changes and was more a case of firming up the clauses than making substantial changes to it.  I have no issues with her advice or the work she has undertaken for us.  She has been brilliant in trying to get the property paperwork sorted out.  Including going to the town hall to check plans for a public track etc that we could use to overcome the land issues. 

The contract isn’t complex and the clauses are something that could be drafted by somebody with a competent command of English and a basic understanding of contract law!    

Anyway the crux of the matter is they have our money and we want it back, or in any case we do not want the agent or the seller to have the money - I would give the money to the donkey sanctuary if it meant they didnt have a cent.

So what is their justification (made up excuse) not to give you your deposit back that they had no right to take in the first place, other than being thieves.

Seems to me the agent wants the money for themselves. Perhaps you need a debt collector who will call at their office and home.

Potblack has a fair point there.   Just asking the question why are you not giving us the deposit back, and then asking the local police about it is probably a good start?   

Will the police advise on anything like that, or is there a trading standards contact in the area?  

I know it's not UK but surely there are some standards that apply?  

I did look into starting commencing action to get my money back and found a complete minefield of what has to be done and not be done!  The agent is busy playing piggy in the middle and has said I'm not giving it to you cos the seller has demanded it.  

All businesses in Spain are regulated by a complaints form system Hojas de Reclamaciones, administered by  OMIC Municipal Consumer Information Offices, very like our trading standings offices in the UK, every town has an office and every business, with a retail type office should have a multi part book and a notice displayed link http://www.ukecc-services.net/OMIC.cfm

OMIC will then independantly investigate the complaint and rule but the only issue is that these forms have to be completed in the offices of the business but this can be done by an appointed representative

We used to complete these for clients or of course you can ask a lawyer to do this for you

If a business fails to supply a form you can call the Police as it is a serious offence and the form can be completed in English or Spanish

This could be a way to speed up the system because is the complaint is upheld the business can be fined

The same process can be used for any complaints against a bar, restaurant or shop

That looks promising.    Good luck. 

Just wondering is this OMIC complaints procedure only relevant to Barcelona as indicated in the website http://www.ukecc-services.net/OMIC.cfm ? Or is it a countrywide procedure?

It looks as though it is relevant to the whole of the EU, but I cannot find anything relating to the Almeria region - which is frustrating!!! 

If I have read the information correctly it is where you use cross border services etc so you can complain, but I have the link and will look into it properly at home, but I think it is very promising.

Fingers crossed!

Applies everywhere start here http://www.aytoroquetas.org/seccion/oficina-del-consumidor_171

On a more general note, noticed this ( see below) but wondered if all aspects associated with property rights and subsequent legal issues appertaining to such, are deemed separate from consumer rights and therefore don't come under the remit of this form of complaint procedure? 

http://www.ukecc-services.net/EUWideOrganisations.cfm

I contacted Solvit once regarding what I considered to be a case of discriminatory behaviour by the Spanish tax authorities (treating EU permanent residents differently from Spanish citizens) and found them to be about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

In the first instance, I think you'll have more joy simply walking into the agent's office and asking (nicely of course!) for an Hoja de Reclamaciones. If you complete one and submit it to the relevant authority (town hall?) they are obliged to investigate, and the business in question is obliged to respond. Sometimes (so I've heard) merely asking for an Hoja de Reclamaciones is enough to make the business in question think better of it and capitulate, rather than invite unwanted scrutiny and questions by the authorities.

Use OMIC the system works 

Once investigated, what actions have been taken to act as future deterrents, Inspectahome? Complaint procedures are only as good as their follow-up enforcement procedures to make perpetrators fully accountable for their malpractice..  

This forum needs to return to being about advising and helping people, like it used to be in the good old days. Unfortunately it cannot change things only help to educate, it isn't a lobby group and has become infested with trolls and point scorers

in this case OMIC will act and can fine the business if the case is upheld

What is key is that OMIC were introduced by somebody knowing the system as an option, as I always say follow the rules

i am certain that I will get the normal abuse for this posting, just like the PM that I have just received

Morning Roy. 

I don't want to bother you with any unwanted PM so I will just try and keep this on thread for us.

i think the key to getting information about the posters options going forward, began when I mentioned trading standards in the UK and suggested they look into similar options in Spain.   This then led to some very interesting points about the way it can be taken into the UKECC services.  This was a kind of consensus way of arriving at good advice and options. 

I do believe the suspicion of advice comes from the way lots of people fell foul of practices around in the 'good old days' and that may be a reason wounds take a long time to heal. 

I agree, the forum is excellent for providing advice, but sometimes the same subjects come up again and again without a reference point for the poster.   Maybe a library of advice for subjects that people require may be a good place for moderators to look into, linked on the front pages or something?

Just a thought.