Debt status certificate

Shame that all expat owners don’t come together to support the efforts of those endeavouring to educate and pressure for better regulation that have potential longer term benefits for all.

Just a thought but as a start point could good presidents play their part in this endeavour by bringing greater attention to this problem  by encouraging their owners to communicate with their MPs or MEPs ( via www.writetothem.com) and call for greater regulation of Spanish Banks at the citizen level, that is, which is sadly lacking.

The irony is that these Banks mission statements are far removed from their actual behaviour and compliance.

As for the Bar Associations, pressure should come from within by clients pressuring their legal firms to bring this to the notice of the powers that be ( in writing). Perhaps Maria could advise what is realistically possible in this regard?

Ads, everyone is aware of what exactly is going on, and that includes MPs, MEPs and every Tom, Dick and Harry. The Banking and legal profession is diseased with Mafia influence, nobody dare admit it or take them on. You would need a Kennedy to sort this lot out. You can send a sack full of letters everyday to whoever you want, they will not do anything.

The only way forward is someone with influence to lead a campaign sighting the Mafia.   

And so long as that message and lack of proactivity is reported no one would conveniently try to do anything about it.....

It’s similar to those who suggested that Banks would never be made compliant in the Bank Guarantee abuse scenario.

There’s certainly no harm in being better organised and determinedly trying to educate to overcome abuse, as the likes of good presidents are doing with their proactivity relating to in this instance debt certificates, as we speak, but much harm in doing nothing.

Best we don’t go round in circles here and agree to disagree on this Kavanagh.

You are correct ads, but you and others need to identify who or what is the root cause to all this abuse, until you do, you have no clear target. This abuse is a disease and needs surgery, not a sticky plaster.

The target in the case of the Banks is the Bank of Spain not regulating its Banks in terms of citizen protections in line with their compliance mission statements.

The target in the case of bad legal firms are the respective Bar Associations, so long as they fail to take action against those lawyers who fail in their due diligences and place clients at risk in that process.

And in the absence of any corrective measures, instances of either or both failings need to be consistently reported back  ( placed on official record) by all UK expats resident in Spain to the European Commission ( via their MEPs).

Couldn’t be clearer!

Quite right ads. Why do you think the Bank of Spain and the Bar Associations are so neglectful in their duties and responsibilities? Surely these people are intelligent and know the difference between right and wrong.

That’s not the point Kavanagh...only when these instances are consistently reported and placed on official record will accountability stand any chance of being achieved. One step at a time and all that...

No ads I do not agree. These abuses have been going on forever, and for whatever reason they have been totally ignored by both regulators responsible who are fully aware. You will not change their behaviour unless you know why they are so neglectful, what motivates them to be so irresponsible?  

You may have identified the target, but you have not identified the cause.

I understand what you are saying Kavanagh but you can postulate as to the cause for ever, but in the interim, greater proactivity is required!

Best we leave it there....

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If I may add to your discussion, Ads, I fully applaud your thoughts and ideas for how to change things but I have to agree with Kavanagh, change will only come about with new generations in Spain.

That will take some time as despite its huge gains from 30 - 40 years ago, Spain is still stuck in its old entrenched traditional values and hates change, especially when it is proposed by the Invaders as we are perceived in many areas.

I have often been told that things have been done a certain way for 60 odd years and they are not about to change it.

The current political upheaval which has resulted in minority governments and a swing away from the traditional 2 party system added to the influence of populists and separatists make the country extremely hard to govern, let alone change.

Even though tourism alone accounts for 15% of GDP and the service industry employs some 75% of workers, traditionalists are difficult to change and influence.

There is NO forum or opportunity for Community Presidents to work together for the benefit of all owners, most are far too busy concentrating on ensuring their own owners interests at local level to be bothered to change things further up.

Spaniards will ultimately change the way Spain is run and organised and sadly, even though holiday home owners and ex pats have very little influence despite the economic benefits we bring.

Hugh man,

Moving forward, I sincerely hope that the E.U. look after Spain’s citizens’ interests better than they did the UK, and hope that they speedily address the need for realistic growth strategies to address the exodus of Spain’s own nationals desperately seeking work, but also that the Spanish govt recognise the breakdown of the court and judicial system without further compromising those who have been so unfairly compromised by the status quo during this last decade and beyond ( and continue to be so).

To leave innocent UK citizens scapegoated in a system of justice massively underfunded and subject to abusive delays of this magnitude, whilst turning blind eyes to ongoing Banking abuse and manipulative ploys, is unforgiveable in this day and age. This is why I was hoping that other UK expats would rally round to support them in whatever way they could.

IMHO, all too often the finger of wrongful blame has been pointed at innocents caught up in this disgraceful abusive episode, with little comprehension of the realities and complexities that they have been subjected to.  I also pray that there aren’t  further proliferation of Bank repossessions by changes that could even further exacerbate a justice system overwhelmed by Bank’s failures to adhere to laws or directives intended to protect.

Time will tell, but for this last decade it has sadly left many totally disillusioned and distrusting of an unaccountable E.U. Commission far too removed from citizens, and unwilling to recognise so many uncomfortable ( but complex) realities, that for those willing to look to a far wider perspective has almost purposefully been hidden from view.

Only when we have had the opportunity to discuss in greater detail on forums such as EOS, does it become clear how thousands of innocents ( without exaggeration) have been unnecessarily scapegoated. When it comes to supporting your fellow man in this regard and seeking out proactive ways to make progress ( no matter how slow), much comes down to conscience and caring from those not directly affected as well as being supportive of good legal professionals who in all honesty have had to be courageous and determined in their attempts to take on the giant financial institutions, to recognise the failings of some of their legal professionals.

One step at a time, as they say, but to remain unwilling to be proactive and report instances, or to fail to endeavour to become better organised, or to occasionally turn blind eyes, only plays into the hands of those abusive, and/ or corrupt, or self interested elements that have done such a disservice to Spain’s reputation. 

We all, nationals and non nationals alike deserve better,  and we should never let those with hidden intent be allowed to divide and so rule and in that process undermine the need for cohesion and optimism to strive for a better system that ironically could work to the benefit of all.

P.s. Neither should we underestimate the work of those in the courts and judiciary who through their actions ( albeit constrained by major lack of funding) finally produced supportive judicial rulings against those powerful financial institutions who were proven to have failed in their legal obligations according to existing law. This is equally difficult to comprehend  however when you recognise how these financial institutions went on to proliferate appeal after appeal until such time as Supreme Court rulings were achieved (thankfully in the main supportive of innocent claimants). And what’s more Banks continue their fight, frequently playing the system of delays in the hope that many claimants will be financially disincentivised from continuing their fight... Now claimants just have to stay strong in the hope that the Supreme Court will stay true to the rule of law which dictates they must be truly independent , free from external influence....

The point being that things are changing  very gradually from within, but only by the hard earned efforts of those willing  to pioneer for justice ( accountability) and educate. :) So never say never!

This message was last edited by ads on 13/08/2019.

It is likely that any effective campaign on stopping this abuse will have to come from Spanish Nationals. Whilst foreigners may be legally classed as residents they are not Spanish. I doubt Spain will take any notice of foreigners demanding Spain changes it’s corrupt culture. You have to remember foreigners are only guests in Spain and are only tolerated for their meal ticket value. Perhaps these abuses are targeted at foreigners.

Quite agree, Invaders are just about tolerated for the money they can bring to the economy but currently we have very little influence.

Note Ads, I did not say change will never happen, I’m sure it will but at the hands of younger generations of Spaniards with a little input from those Ex Pats who do run their Communities efficiently and effectively and on behalf of multinational owners.

In the dame way that the U.K. has embraced multiculturism and opinions and input from a wide range of backgrounds in all levels of politics.

Dont think I have sufficient puff left to lead the charge though. 😂

IMHO the subsequent impact on cohesion and lack of tolerance between nationals and non nationals in Spain ultimately lies with those who formulated the strategy of free movement within the E.U. ( the E.U. executive, I.e. the Commission). Therefore it is sadly insufficient to rely solely upon a change from the next generation of Spaniards. For multiculturalism and tolerance to thrive in Spain the following should be equally reflected upon.....

The EU executive sadly failed to recognise and respond to the need for a trusted conveyancing system between member states ( turning a blind eye to all manner of loopholes that subsequently compromised all too many), 

They failed to ensure a regulated banking system was in place to ensure guarantees would be honoured or that financial compliance structures in place to protect citizens were adhered to.

They failed to recognise and respond to the need for a regulated building strategy that adhered to government controls.

They failed to recognise and respond to the essential need for a justice system (and for that matter regulatory Bar Association structure) fit for purpose to be in place I.e. adequately funded and resourced which in the event of litigation could adequately respond with all due adherence to the rule of law. 

They failed to demonstrate a willingness to effectively monitor and adjust where necessary country’s pre-ordained lifting restrictions associated with movements of people.

They failed to effectively forward plan growth structures and respond when member states became either unfairly targeted by major swift inward movements  that overwhelmed their infrastructure, health and social systems, etc, or alternatively stripped member states of their labour forces subjecting them to highly significant unemployment levels, leaving citizens with little option but to flee their own member state.

Without an initial and ongoing effective impact assessment on all of these essential elements, appears to be a complete dereliction of duty by those in the E.U. executive, who promoted and encouraged free movement policy.

Without essential citizen protections in place and an executive who refused to swiftly respond to major compromising instances that were scapegoating innocent citizens, ( unintended consequences?) in this manner, it was inevitable that disillusionment and distrust would develop by those significantly compromised during this decade and beyond.

All too many lessons to be learned after the event I’m afraid for those caught up in this “unprepared for” era of significant change. 

But the saddest aspect of all, is that it didn’t have to be this way.  If the E.U. Commission had recognised the need for timely reform, the need to readjust and be supportive of its citizens and set standards for better regulation, to better account for these many unforeseen circumstances, then such compromising and significant shifts in lack of cohesion and intolerance would have been minimised. Multiculturalism and willingness to consider inputs from wide ranges of backgrounds, as you rightly identify Hughman,  would have been far more easily accommodated and embraced.

IMHO the message from all of this going forward for those citizens within the E.U. member state structure, is to better educate through forums such as EOS, be supportive of one another, and become far more proactive in the fight for rights to be listened and responded to, by being better organised and striving for far better effective reporting, monitoring and regulatory compliance structures in place to protect.

But in the interim it’s important to strive for these improvements in as tolerant and inclusive a manner as possible, by engaging and respecting one another’s cultural differences but aiming for mutual benefits, .....gradually building trust by good example, good intent.

I fully agree ads with all you say. In the past you must have suffered a great injustice. Perhaps that is something you wish to keep secret from other members because of embarrassment. Are you actually living and resident in Spain despite all you have suffered.

Back on topic (I think).

Are these "debt certificates" from the administrators the letter that states there are no outstanding community fees?
We've sold two properties in Spain and bought three. In every case, with 2 different solicitors, a letter from the administrators to confirm there were no outstanding debts on the property was required. We were advised by one solicitor not to go ahead without one as the community can claim back several years for any debt.

Or is there another type of debt certificate? I know our solicitor checked for outstanding IBI bills (there weren't any) and retaining a certain amount from the sales to cover utility bills. 

If you get a debt certificate from whomever and the information turned out to be inaccurate where would you legally stand? Would you have to wait 5 years for a court hearing whilst your property was confiscated and sold in auction?

The Debt Certificate to which I’m referring to is issued by the Community Administrator and covers Community fees If up to date or not.

This has become a major issue since the Financial Crisis with many properties still carrying forward aged debt and it appears not all lawyers ask for them unless pushed by the buyer.

I do believe that all other debts such as Taxes, IBI, Loans, Fines etc. can be applied to a property owned by the person with any such debt. This would show in the Nota Simple available from the Land Registry, which would show any financial interest in the property.

If not settled on completion of sale then any debt remains linked with the property.

Banks regularly try to sell on property without advising the buyer or settling the debt, leaving the new buyer to settle up.

Ive never known a debt certificate from the Administrator to be incorrect but suppose it is possible, but unsure how it would be noticed, let alone challenged.

Hugh man,

Some properties are not inscribed in the register if the owner has chosen not to do so ( this is not mandatory), so debts can be hidden.

I read on EOS many years ago about someone who had not been advised that a mortgage had been placed against a property which had not been registered and the bank repossessed the property leaving them with nothing....

Given the risks associated with failures of some conveyancing lawyers ( who have not been effectively regulated)  I cannot understand why it is not a mandatory requirement to register all properties in Spain.

Ads

You may well be correct but most new builds making up Communities built before or around the Crisis will certainly have been registered by the developer and new buyers.

I can only speak from experience in Community affairs.