Debt status certificate

That’s good to hear Hugh man but still important for purchasers to remain aware of potential pitfalls. Is it just the Banks who are failing to register their repossessed properties at point of transfer then? Perhaps there could be further legal clarification on this?

Anyway, good luck in your Community endeavours.

‘’Given the risks associated with failures of some conveyancing lawyers ( who have not been effectively regulated)  I cannot understand why it is not a mandatory requirement to register all properties in Spain.’’

Perhaps you could ask that question of the government minister responsible and see if you get an answer.

** EDITED - Against forum rules **

Shame you didn’t also focus on the other observation Kavanagh,

“But in the interim it’s important to strive for these improvements in as tolerant and inclusive a manner as possible, by engaging and respecting one another’s cultural differences but aiming for mutual benefits, .....gradually building trust by good example, good intent.”

Agressive and inciteful methods only alienate and further divide, if the truth be known. Education and open minded research to gain the true facts are essential when striving for improvements. Hence my questions.

Good Presidents who represent their communities and in their own way forewarn and strive for improvements have a really positive part to play here and deserve support and recognition for their endeavours. And not only from those affected first hand but also from other fellow men and women who genuinely care.

Enough!

Ads

In my limited experience of Communities established since 2007, yes it is when Bank’s finally repossess a property that they are obviously not receiving mortgage payments for or when they agree a Dacion with the owners who cannot fund the ongoing mortgage payments.

We can check on the Nota Simple of the banks interest as it’s registered.

However the great area comes between the time when the bank agrees to repossess the property, change the locks etc and complete all the paperwork, many of them delay the process by not re registering them selves as owners rather they wait until they sell on the unit, if they can.

Even then they have been known not to have cleared all Community debts perhaps thinking the new buyer will not notice.

This has actually happened a few times.

Eventually the banks will pay any debts as they are legally obliged unless of course the buyer ends up with the responsibility.

Banks currently appear to be in the process of changing the managing company which is responsible for repossessed property and yet again this has slowed down their payment practice.

Our Community introduced a 20% discount for prompt payment so we are comfortable in the knowledge that the slow paying banks don’t receive this benefit 😀.

Trying to persuade some local Administrators to act in a more professional and efficient manner is also tough going as they are generally scared of powerful banks and certainly of influential local business owners.

This is why it’s tough for foreigners to have much influence of local laws and business practice even if we do try to do it with empathy.

Hughman,

Presumably this means that the end result, where Banks of repossessed properties delay paying their community fees until they sell those properties ( several years down the line) are leaving the remaining community of owners having to pick up their costs to keep the community up to standard?  

But also, because the 20% discount incentive that has been introduced to get the remainder of community owners to pay on time ( which granted the Banks will not be entitled to once they sell their repossessed properties and finally pay their community debts).....doesn’t this place an additional interim burden on keeping the community up to the required standard due to even greater depletion of community funds (for gardens, pools, building, maintenance etc)? And won’t this ironically  then have a knock on impact on sales, especially if the Banks are not prepared to significantly discount their repossessed properties?

So long as repossessed properties are not selling, the Banks must be placing enormous strains on community of owners?

Does this therefore warrant being brought to the attention of the EU, if the Spanish Government are not willing to amend the rules re mandatory registration of properties ( which would force the Banks to pay their community fees as per the remaining owners).

Would it therefore be worthwhile for those communities so badly affected by this to join forces to bring this abuse to the formal attention of the EU Commission? Is no one in authority in Spain supporting communities in this regard?

Or perhaps Banks are now finally selling their repossessed properties in greater numbers and communities are reclaiming their full ( non discounted) community fees from them in that process?

Also are community owners compromised in any way by vulture funds who take over the debts of the Bank repossessed properties? Do they have any responsibility to pay the Banks outstanding community debts on transfer of ownership? And who is responsible for regulating the Vulture Funds in Spain?

This message was last edited by ads on 16/08/2019.

Ads

I don’t think Vulture Funds are regulated anywhere, let alone Spain.

One of the reasons U.K. MPs are asking Metro Bank not to sell their mortgage portfolio in U.K. to such funds.

Im not sure if anyone has any experience yet of Vulture Funds owning property in their Community but imagine they have just bought the debt NOT the title, so in theory fees should continue to be paid.

Banks, once they accept their ownership of a property will pay the current year plus previous 3 years of debt so Communities eventually get some recompense it just that they are slow and reluctant at times to officially register this ownership. So yes Communities are put under some pressure during this time but no more than when the owners defaulted on fees.

Discount incentives encourage all sensible owners to set up direct debits or transfer funds on time.

Banks however have such large portfolios, over 400,000 in total unsold properties remain in Spain, that they are not able to manage them efficiently, plus I believe their value is still not written down in balance sheets but these are not effectively checked or challenged.

The Bank of Spain would argue that banks do pay, even though it’s a slow process, that’s the Spanish way and frankly the E.U. has little interest in second home ownership though it did push them over Capital Tax differences between residents and foreigners.

As previously, there is little incentive or forum for Administrators to work collectively to improve the system and even less opportunity for Community Presidents to form action groups.

Our Resort has 20 Communities and we only met together once in 12 years as we have NO standing and each President concentrated on their own locality IF they have the time to contribute, remember, many are reluctant and leave it to Administrators who are generally spin offs from legal firms. You get the picture.

The banks and other creditors are only trying to salvage what they can from defaulters on behalf of their shareholders. It’s so easy for some to put all the blame for this on the banks.

What about the upstanding Brits who just threw the keys in because their property had reduced in value and went back to their nice semi in the UK disowning everything.

Hughman

Aren’t all resident owners, (not just second home owners), nationals and non nationals alike, compromised under this debt scenario?

 If residents are becoming increasingly vulnerable, would there still be little interest from the E.U. to intervene and support all resident citizens in Spain? Isn’t there a strong argument therefore for getting the E.U. Parliament ( via MEPs) to make the E.U. Commission accountable for their rhetoric which implies they are looking after the interests of citizens?

Kavanagh

How much financial loss is attributed to citizens defaulting on their properties that are not related to Bank illegalities, by comparison to the developer/contractor defaults on their loans, with innocent citizens scapegoated in that process. 

For one instance a developer becomes insolvent, and in that process Bank Guarantees should have been honoured, however Banks scapegoat the innocent citizens by denying their responsibilities associated with guarantees, forcing them to litigate and then go on to appeal ad infinitum until such time as the SC finally rule against them. Thus subjecting them to a proliferation of onerous and abusive delays.

Likewise, Banks have repossessed properties without providing adequate timeframes for citizens to make alternative arrangements and have used unrealistic asset values in that process, allowing vulture funds ( that took over their mortgage books) to make profits that were not equally accounted for in settlement claims.

Banks have abused floor clauses which compromised citizens, and now they compromise communities by failing to register their properties thus using the system of delays to their advantage....yet more abusive and manipulative ploys.

And as a consequence of all this, they compromise the justice and court systems and the rule of law which stipulates that justice should be administered in a timely and independent manner without external interference! 

Just how many ploys that scapegoat citizens do you feel are justified in support of the Banks?

And as a consequence of all this, they compromise the justice and court systems and the rule of law which stipulates that justice should be administered in a timely and independent manner without external interference! 

Is that the banks fault or the people who control the justice system? Nobody is supposed to be above the law.

Kavanagh

We have discussed this ad infinitum .....The court and Justice system have been swamped almost to collapse by required litigation against the Banks actions relating to all of the observed abuses ( emphasis on abuses), and in that process the rule of law has been compromised by creating a scenario where delays have inevitably become so excessive as to contravene the rule of law. The onus is on the Banks who have perpetrated abuse in the first place!

What would you prefer for citizens Kavanagh,  protection against those institutions that are abusing their financial responsibilities from the outset, or passing the buck to innocents who have to suffer the many consequences of their abuses?

Like any commercial business the court and justice system should put it’s house in order to effectively deal with the demands. How about getting out of bed a bit earlier and finishing a bit later. How about cutting down the 3 hour lunch with wine. How about working Saturdays. How about recruiting more staff.

No doubt barmy ideas to those who have never run a business.

And your views on the abuses by the Banks that feed the problem Kavanagh?

Whichever manipulation caused as a result of the unfortunate banks that have initially been mistreated by Brits doing a runner is down to the ineffective ongoing could not care less so called justice system.

Ads

i most certainly would not disagree but can only talk about a Community with few resident owners.

If there is indeed interest from resident owners, then as we have suggested any action would need to be generated from the Spanish Nationals, mainly as few Ex Pats are probably fully legal in Spain and most don’t get involved in politics.let alone understand how to go about it.

Lets face it, there are not hundreds of others on EOS flocking to support our concerns.

Political actions require mass support and even then the Spanish government fought hard and long against the EU over differences in CGT treatment.

Kavangh

Yes there were many off Plan buyers who pulled out of their commitment to buy but in comparison to the debacles over developers and bank gaurantees after the Crash i think thats relatively small fry.

You couldn’t write this script Kavanagh!

“Unfortunate Banks” that fail to uphold existing law in place to protect unless forced to do so, and fail to demonstrate any compliance with their mission statements, that sadly demonstrate little regard and undue arrogance for their customer base when complaints are made against them, that encouraged lending in full knowledge of impending crash ( or with unforgivable failure of due diligence to make adequate provision), within an industry where they turned blind eyes to greedy financiers effectively betting on a system to fail leading to a worldwide recession.  .... mmm.

We could go on indefinitely but the most important aspect now is for citizens, law firms, developers, Banks, Governments.... you name it , to learn lessons from this incredulous scenario and strive for effective regulatory reforms.

BUT WILL THEY? Only by educating and by a willingness to seek mutual solutions will progress ever be made. 

Best we leave it there! 

It would appear some people have a one sided narrow-minded view on this subject and have never been involved in the topic. All this was brought about by the world financial crisis and the collapse of the property market. Many greedy buyers borrowed what they could not afford in the hope of making a quick buck, they got their fingers burnt, and some threw the keys in and did a runner back to the UK leaving others to hold the baby. Developers went bust and also did a runner when funds dried up. Off plan buyers thought they were Del Boy and lost their deposits, but they were the lucky one’s, better than completing a purchase worth only half the value.

It was mostly a case of greed and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now the injured banks shareholders are paying an even greater price picking up the pieces.

To say banks had full knowledge of the impending crash is ridicules’.

Enough, best we leave it there.

Look to the facts Kavanagh and the sequence of events with regard to the worldwide financial recession and you will find quite a different story than you prefer to relay. https://www.thebalance.com/what-caused-2008-global-financial-crisis-3306176 

Its all too easy to conveniently forget how the lack of adequate regulation and compliance within the financial industry led to a corrupted system that crashed and left the public picking up the pieces and bailing out the Banks who had become too big to fail.

But equally look to the here and now and the behaviour of the Banks in Spain and you will find again a very different story that begs many questions.

When you look to a far wider perspective with regard to the Bank Guarantee scenario in Spain ( just one of many scenarios ), citizens have been scapegoated, fighting for their inalienable rights as defined in law,  which thankfully has been finally recognised by a Supreme Court no less, albeit after major protracted litigation where the powerful Banks fought ,( and still fight), tooth and nail to deny their financial responsibilities relating to Bank Guarantees in place to protect. And all with undue regard and purposefully continuing their ploys and denials without any consideration of  the impact on a  justice system struggling to cope with the fallout.

Back to the thread topic however and debt certification, no one should be under any illusions that the Banks are stalling the back payments of debts due to communities, and purposefully using a system sadly lacking in mandatory controls, with all the subsequent knock on impacts thereafter. And in that process they sadly do a great disservice to community owners, both nationals and non nationals.

History now acts as a lesson to become far better educated of a Spanish conveyancing and banking system sadly beset by all manner of loopholes, so research widely with open minds and factor in the need for good trusted legal representation etc...... and of course Kavanagh it’s essential for purchasers to remain realistically aware of risks, but please don’t deny that BGs with inalienable rights were in place to protect from those risks, or that deregulation leads to all manner of risks that have the potential to scapegoat those who remain in ignorance of a highly complex financial structures, supported all too frequently by those with little concern for the impact on society as a whole.

This message was last edited by ads on 17/08/2019.

It is the governments duty past and present to ensure adequate laws are in place to protect it’s citizens. It is for the justice system to implement those laws. Clearly you are stating the justice system is a shambles and riddled with loopholes. For some unknown reason you are blaming the innocent banks who have no powers to make any laws, they are just operating in the chaotic justice shambles of a system that is imposed on them.

If there are loopholes, what man on earth would not take advantage if it was in his best interests?

Your bank hatred campaign is misguided.

Educative campaign not bank hatred as you well know Kavanagh.

A fair regulatory structure leads to greater harmony and civilised society, essential to counter those with hidden self interests who at times sadly care little for their fellow man.

You are quite right ads this shambles of a justice system would never be tolerated in the UK or USA. Why is it tolerated here in Spain? And why are you personally shouting about it over and over and over again.