13, 200, 000 MILLION EUROS STOLEN BY CORRUPT SPAIN

Hi

Great comments Frik I totally agree with you.

Justice must prevail.  Together we can make a difference.

Keith
FINCA PARCS ACTION GROUP

Email:  fpag@btinternet.com
 

 I can totally imagine the frustration of some of the posters here. If I had put all my savings in an off-plan purchase only to discover later that it could never be built as there was even a proper license for it or the developer went broke or whatever I would be mad just like you are.

However there is some confusion going on in this thread about Spain and apparently some superior feeling from Brits. I know I won´t convince but there are some statements which are quite commonly made about Spain by UK nationals which are just untrue and caused by ignorance.

Spain may have some trouble with corruption, but they are not much worse than Great-Britain. The difference between being no. 17 and 32 is not as big as you think if you realize that the list goes to 180. There are 16 countries who do much better than the UK. You don´t score very well on the official corruption scale.

The second common misunderstanding is that the Spanish robbed the English. It´s a fact that many of the developers were Spanish, but the actual ripping of is usually done by Brits. Some large real estate companies which I think you are not allowed to mention on EOS were crucial in this process. So called real estate agents who used to be postmen in the UK sold houses with false promises and without any knowledge of the development plans of the town hall. These large companies also sold you original British furniture packages which came directly from Thailand when I had to receive them in my role as representant of the owners.

It was all a big scam and the common expression is ´Brits robbing Brits´ for the people who live and work here and came from a different country. It has always amazed me that so many people trusted people just because they had a British accent. When I bought my home I checked the official development plan of the Town hall as approved by the Andalucian government. Most buyers never did that and instead believed people who recently emigrated to Spain and were completely clue less about the local situation, the official plans and the fact that their British bosses were even ripping them off.

British people  tend to believe other Brits and certainly their sollicitors as you call them. These people as mentioned in this thread just put a website with english information, hired a nice looking office in Marbella and were totally not interested in your interests as the repeat business came from the promoters. Not from the one time buyer from the UK. I have spoken with hundreds of Brits who still after years still don´t have their ´copia simple´ which is the official copy of the title deed. When asked they don´t even know whose name it´s on and they certainly never read that their lawyer waived the rights of every buyers and the statement that you explicitly and knowingly waived your rights you had according to law. It´s something which still amazes me and when I try it to other nationalities they are just as surprised that people spend tons of Euros on an unknown contract. 

You understand I´m not British so I am aware that all over the world there are lawyers who are just crooks in suits and you should never listen to a real estate agent and certainly not to one who is not even registered in the association. Most of the Spanish real estate agents are and they have to maintain a code of integrity and possess local knowledge and be aware ot the existing development plan. When I bought from 2500 kilometers away I checked the records myself, knew what the area would be, that I had my seaview guaranteed etc. And no the promised free beer in a new tunnel from my residential directly to the beach was made up by the British ´real estate agent´. 

Anyway there are lots of improvements possible to the Spanish judicial system but the same can be said of the British. I´m an International lawyer and your law system is teached as an example of a completely outdated legal system which doesn´t adhere to modern so called universal law systems. Germany, Finland, Spain, numerous other countries and even f.i. Iran have more in common than the UK system. There are very good Spanish lawyers and they win their cases at the higher courts and even before the High court in Madrid. That there are still some local courts who favour promoters is an exception, not a rule and easily overturned if your lawyer appeals.

Lots of people thought they were investing in Spain and would get rich by buying property as the large British companies promised you. I have asked many times how many investment in real estate they had done before investing in another country and if they were successful in their own village buying and selling sheds as a beginning but they look dazed when I asked that. Greed and the tendency to trust other Brits were a dangerous combination.

Real investors start small, learn from their mistakes, make money in their own city, expand to other regions and when they are rich enough they take the gamble to buy overseas off plan which is about the risky thing you can do with your money. You should only do that if you can afford the loss. Not with your life savings.

Other common misunderstandings are that Spain got rich thanks to British money paid to the EU. Every economist can tell you that this a false statement.  Spain got support the European community but it was not Britain who paid the bill. The Germans, French, Dutch and Italian were the main contributors after deducting the huge discount you still get from the EU because at the time you entered the EU you were on of the poorest member states.

F.i. already in 1994 Spain had to pay 14% of your yearly rebate, the Italians 24% and the France 31%. Be aware that the rebate you negotiated with the EU is worth around 3 billion pounds a year and Spain pays a large share of that 3 billion pound to your benefit.

The Spanish banking system is in high esteem and only weeks ago got very positive comments by the IMF as there was a hoax going round that is was not sound. Savvy speculants try to target Spain to make money at the moment, but fundamentally it is a sound economy which only has a huge deficit on its budget. They didn´t loan it on the international market and they didn´t use inflation as a way to camouflage enormous debts like the UK and the VS do at the expense of the purchasing power of their citizens. Inflate you debt away is a third world practice which is not used within the EU zone. 

Sorry to air all this, but it´s annoying that British people from a false sense of superiority keep on repeating stories which are not based on any facts. 

I still feel sorry for all the individuals who lost money due to innocence, unjustified trust in British companies and lawyers who took advantage of you, but don´t blame the whole of Spain or think that Britain paid for the roads so has the right to correct the Spanish third world country. These things are just not true and an insult to every Spanish person. It´s a bit like a certain Mark Anthony who put billboards at the costa stating you now entered his territory. I don´t think he is able to set foot on Spanish territory now so he has to enjoy watching his football club paid by you and do it all over again in Bulgaria where a totally different company does exactly the same things, but is legally a different entity. This time his wife is officially the boss :)

Max.

Max, regarding the first contentious statement I read on your posting:

The second common misunderstanding is that the Spanish robbed the English. It´s a fact that many of the developers were Spanish, but the actual ripping of is usually done by Brits.

As a lawyer I presume you have some stats to back this up, if so then please present them. I bought through a Spanish agent and was ripped off, I don't know about everyone else on the forum.

I did not read much of the detail beyond the above statement because it smacks of hot air and supposition. If you know more about this than the rest of us then please present facts, not glib, unqualified statements.

Regards, Dave

Futlond,

Regarding the statement Max made that you commented on.

It may well be a contentious statement, however everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

However, when it comes to this statement by Max:

"It was all a big scam and the common expression is ´Brits robbing Brits´ for the people who live and work here and came from a different country. It has always amazed me that so many people trusted people just because they had a British accent."

That is true certainly for here on the Costa Del Sol.

I always hear British people in the bars talking about purchasing property and 95% of the time, at some point during the conversation, I hear "I/We can trust him/them as he/they are British!". It amazes me that they have only just met someone and they feel perfectly confident in handing over large amounts of money, based on the fact that they feel that because the person they are dealing with is British, they won't be ripped off!

The term "Brits robbing Brits" is commonly used here on the Costa Del Sol, and I'm afraid to say that when I deal with a Brit, I am much more cautious than I am with the Spanish. For example, I have never been short changed by a Spaniard, but I have been by a Brit... or at least he tried to!

To be honest, I wouldn't trust anyone, Spanish , British or any other nationality down here on the Costa del Sol, at least not until I know them well.  There's so many dodgy people, scamsters, crooks and bullshitters down here, even after the property crash.  It's like the wild west, which I kind of like in a way.

Saying that, I have met some lovely people down here - Greeks, Danes, Germans, Spaniards, Brits, Dutch, Llanitos. 

I just think you need to be very careful on the CDS.

Max

I feel I should reply to your posting as I have made a few previous posts on this thread.

You say "Spain may have some trouble with corruption, but they are not much worse than Great Britain".

The fact is Spain DOES have trouble with corruption especially in the construction and real estate sector.  Whether it is not much worse than Great Britain is hardy the point.  Two wrongs do not make a right.

Many innocent purchasers have lost money in Spain and some have had their lives shattered as a result of the corruption in the construction and real estate sector.  This website is called 'Eye on Spain' and for that reason issues relating to Spain are discussed.  The Spanish courts are full of construction/real estate cases and that is probably why this topic keeps coming up on this forum.

I do not deny there may be another website called 'Eye on GB' and people could well be discussing the corruption in Great Britain!!

You say "there is a superior feeling from Brits".  I do not think that is the case.

It makes no difference whether the person/company carrying out the illegal activity is Spanish, English, Irish etc, the fact of the matter in this case is that it is happening in Spain and the cases are being dealt with under the Spanish judicial system.

Spain appears to have good enough consumer protection laws, however it seems the Judges may have been taking the side of the developers for too long.  The funding Banks liability under LEY 57/68 Article 1.1 and Article 1.2 is clear, however for years the legal system has failed to enforce the Law in its entirety.
 
A number of the postings in this thread refer to the LAS HIGUERICAS, FINCA PARCS development.  I am leading an action group against the developer and funding bank as they failed to issue the legally required Bank Guarantees.

In our case I can tell you that:

The developer, Cleyton GES SL was/is a Spanish Company

The agents were mostly British & Irish - because they were targeting those markets

The Lawyers used by most purchasers were Spanish

The funding entity - CAM Bank - is a Spanish Savings Bank

So there is a mixture of nationalities involved, however I go back to what I previously said:

It makes no difference whether the person/company carrying out the illegal activity is Spanish, English, Irish etc, the fact of the matter is that it is happening in Spain.

Spain is a lovely country with fantastic people and customs.  That is why so many people choose to live in Spain.  However, the reputation of Spain has been badly damaged by the events of the last few years in the construction/real estate sector. 

Until the Spanish government makes those who are liable pay and does everything in its power to stamp out the illegal activity and corruption, Spain will struggle to attract the same number of foreign purchasers and tourists as it did in the past.  Which is a real shame.......

Kind regards

Keith
FINCA PARCS ACTION GROUP

www.fincaparcsactiongroup.com

fpag@btinternet.com

Colin

I understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the inference of Max's post was that the whole corruption problem was a British conspiracy.

I think Keith and Sanchez have it right, that it is a major problem involving many professions and nationalities, that adversely affects the reputation of Spain as a nation.

On a personal level, I would not trust a Brit or a Spaniard unless I knew them, or they were recommended to me by someone I trusted, in Spain or the UK. However to trivialise this as a "Brit versus Brit" problem is failing to recognise the serious probelms in the Spanish system. Colin, we have all seen your smug postings saying that you did things the right way and everything was perfect for you, but I don't think you have really accepted that lots of other people did their homework and did things the right way, with disastrous consequences.

I just think there are too maany groups of people that compartmentalise the problems as being "Brit" or "Spanish" or "Lawyer" or "Judicial" problems, whereas the whole system and all the people involved at every level, have let thousands of people down badly. We need a more balanced view in order to address the real problems, of which there are many.

Dave 

"Colin, we have all seen your smug postings saying that you did things the right way and everything was perfect for you,"

If the definition of smug is trying to help people out and stop people falling foul of the same mistakes as made by many, then yes! That must obviously make me smug, very smug indeed!

My username on here is TechNoApe, and I would appreciate if when you referred to me and my postings directly, that you use that name or a derivative of it!

Perhaps I come across smug because when I contribute to the 'dark side' of EOS where people constantly complain about what happened to them but never, ever contribute something other than that, they get their back up!

They never answer posts on 'how' to do things, only ever "I got ripped off" or "look! more ripoff"

I am aware of people who appear to have done everything right and yet still got things wrong! I am aware of the corruption in Spain, and yet as you said I got things right and avoided it... twice! And therefore I try and help people avoid the pitfalls of purchasing property in Spain.

So, by that very admission, according to you I am Smug!?!?!?

It gets my goat that all the people who feel they got ripped off do is bitch about their lot! They never, ever contribute anything really constructive! Every positive thread gets invaded and taken over by the those who berate Spain with every breath. So maybe I should go over to those threads, such as this one, and post something positive and do it in a very smug manner!

Why don't they start a thread called "how to avoid doing what I did" or "ways to ensure you get it all right"??????

And going back on topic, we all know that there was massive corruption in Spain, but so has there been in Bulgaria and Turkey when it comes to holiday properties. And what about the corruption in the UK!

As long as mankind walks this earth, there will be corruption!

Sorry TechnoApe, does this mean we're not friends?

I don't think that you are smug, but one or two of your previous postings could be interpreted that way in context of the subject. I apologise for being offensive, but I just lwanted to emphasise that there are a lot of meticulous and thorough people who have not been as lucky as you, through no fault of their own (and I'm not sure I would categorise myself in with them, I was quite trusting and naive - lesson learnt). I am not insinuating you do not have some important opinions to offer.

My main point was about the breadth and level of the corruption and deceipt, and that we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking, for example, that buying from a Spanish agent will make everything tickety-boo.

I always read Technoapes comments with measured respect as I think he has experiences we can all learn from. I take his point that corruption is a human frailty, however this is why we are dependent on rules, regulations, laws and courts so as to curtail these abuses and to seek redress when injustices happen.

I bought off plan and found little to fault the process, but due to the recession the resort I bought into is a shadow of that promised. I made the purchase believing that my contract of purchase was dependent on the developer supplying 'more or less'/ 'give or take' that as was set out in the resort plans. Was I being naive, perhaps.

What struck home to me about the attitude of business in Spain, and maybe it could equally apply elsewhere, was during the closure of air space due to volcanic ash. Almost everyone appeared to want to make as much money off the backs of poor unfortunates as possible, From hotel rooms, car hire, taxi fares, increased charges for internet usage at establishments to the price of basics at airports. Everyone seemed to have an angle. Yet one or two individuals who attempted to organise reasonably priced coach travel to French ports offered a glimmer of hope in a sea of darkness.

I guess its a sad day when we have to be wary of what people tell us or when we have to try and second guess their motives. I personally believe that all nationalities are capable of deceit and corruption, but my overall impression is that Spanish law is more forgiving to the developer and banks than to the individual who seeks its protection.

Raff

Your comment is absolutely 100% true.  I could not agree more.

"Spanish law is more forgiving to the developer and banks than to the individual who seeks its protection"

But..........I think that very slowly the legal process in Spain is moving a little more towards the protection of the consumer.

It will be a long fight for many of us, but I am sure one day, in one form or another, justice will prevail.

Keith
FINCA PARCS ACTION GROUP

www.fincaparcsactiongroup.com

TechnoApe:

as you said I got things right and avoided it... twice! And therefore I try and help people avoid the pitfalls of purchasing property in Spain.

I know you did your homework before you came out but I think you also need to acknowledge that luck also played a part in things working out for you.

Dear All,

if the Spanish are less corrupt than the Brits, how is it that the "deputies" do not accept and implement the EU directives as a matter of national pride and urgency.

where are the wonderful Spanish???????????

avoiding politics because it is too corrupt???????????

and what of "Techno the Smug" is he really that clever??????????

was he just lucky or did he plan to move to Spain before he even bought his holiday home????????

is it not the case that his research was done over years of holiday visits, so that he thoroughly knew the area and system??????

when did he issue warnings on here or any where else if he knew what was going on?????????

he did once offer to show me his purchases as examples of his shrewdness, but that soon fizzled out.

Oh well, we can't all be clever like Techno and Max with our years of in depth research and professional expertise, so  we deserve to be ripped off.

But do we have to then be crowed over by the "smugs" of this world. Telling us how stupid we are and how we left our brains on the plane.

Even that Spain is totally corrupt and that the fact is common knowledge that everyone knows.

Except Max apparently, who even thinks we should have bought a few sheds in the UK before daring to trust a purchase in Spain.

Take it like a man and move on is the usual smug advice.

Oh well!!!!!

Regards

Norman

I dislike the tone of this argument, surely when we look around and see the greed of corrupt bankers and institutions world wide that brought economies to the brink of disaster. We only have to look at Ireland, Greece, Portugal, Spain, Britain the United States.......what has nationality got to do with it. 

BP cutting corners and the resultant environmental damage due to the exploitation of our natural resources and the requirement to make more obscene billions.

Mps and the expenses scandal.

Toyota putting money before customer safety.

Cowboy builders and developers.

Off shore accounts to enable the wealthy to avoid their responsibilities.

Dictators and elected representatives syphoning millions from foreign aid meant to assist their own starving peoples.

AND the ordinary man in the street who tempted by opportunism makes the wrong choices..

On top of all of this people relate to their own experiences, Some may have planned and failed others may have a care free attitude and succeed. We all have a degree of 'luck', good or bad. We each travel a path that the dynamics of life influences. We can only relate to what our experiences have been and this will differ from one individual to another, 

Dear All,

given that you understand that these matters are just the "weaknesses" of human nature coming out???????

what to do???????????

do you ignore Ford in America who checked the finances on recalling all the dangerous cars as identified by technical experts and then decided it would be cheaper to pay compensation on a few predicted accident deaths instead.?????????

and where does the pursuit of acceptable investment profit come in????

should any misbehavior be accepted just because it is humanly understandable????

should the "smart" condemn the "less smart" just because the smugness is human.

Regards

Norman

All societies live by a series of checks and balances, a system of regulatory and case law developed to identify and offer protection from those that attempt to take unfair advantage. It is precisely because of the human 'weakness' that we rely on these rules and regulations, the problem begins when their enforcement is not undertaken in a proper and correct manner.

The Spanish system has, I believe, sufficient laws on its books to deal with these abuses, the difficultly is that there is little political will to enforce them. This has to change, if the Spanish won't do it willingly then every avenue should be taken to force them. In this regard its about time the EU took steps to ensure Spain acts in the interests of the many against the few. 

Currently It is left to those that have been 'relieved' of their hard earned money to fight the system.The time, effort and finances needed to pursue these cases increases the weight on those already over burdened. Some like Maria de Castro try and make a difference, their frustration is evident. Others like Keith110 carry the fight forward on all our behalf and I admire them and what they stand for, 

Dear All,

absolutely true , now you have got the idea............. well done!!!!!!!!!.

despite what Max, the ex Dutch lawyer, trying to re-invent himself as an ex-pat  "domestic" and Colin Techno, the budding I.T. chappie, tell us, there is not a single instance of off-plan fraud known in the UK, to my knowledge.

neither is there very much evidence of UK solicitors exchanging contracts and handing over clients deposits without proper checks, including finance being in place, the corruption is not as routine as it is in Spain.

Since I am personally involved in Planning corruption here I cannot say it does not exist, but it is being taken seriously and addressed.

I have also been a victim of attempted fraud by Irish tarmac scammers and know of the many instances of "roofers", "plumbers", boiler mainteance and "locksmiths" targeting the pensioners with their scams but have no experience yet of I.T. personnel overcharging the ill-informed for basic simple maintenance.

I concede that perhaps Goodstich spread his message onto other threads, but that pales into insignificance compared to Techno and others attempts to cast their spin everywhere.

Regards

Norman

Powerful stuff Norman! I guess we've all been victims of attempted scammers and con-men some time, somewhere, somehow, but some of your points do inspire wider reflection. You seem to have a knack of thinking outside -the box. Keep the thouights rolling.

Fultond, of course we are still friends. We all banter back and forth, and at some point we can all get our backs up... including me!

Raff, thank you! I appreciate your comments.

Sanchez, I know you know me personally, so I'm confused when you state that I had a margin of luck in my purchases! Exactly what element of my purchases came down to luck? As you know, I don't believe in luck, however I do believe on providence.

Norman, your thoughts outside the box are fine with me also!

However, sometimes your thoughts appear to be from inside a white padded cell!!!!!! And it is those thoughts that I tend to remark on.

Exactly what 'spin' as you call it Norman do you accuse me of?

Further, why do you accuse me of anything, other than giving the facts that I and others see?

What is your hidden agenda on EOS and what of the spin that you enthuse on an unwilling public!!!! You don't and haven't contributed anything of actual help to anyone on EOS.

All you, and others like you, actually do is berate anyone who has made a success of property purchase in Spain! And woe betide anyone such as myself who has not only done that, on more than one occasion, but actually have moved out of the UK to reside in Spain, but have also made a success of this and have a great new life, and then offer help and advice on doing all three!!!!

What was the name of that development that you purchased into in Casares again? Can it be the same one that other people, that I know personally,  who have purchased a property within and are very happy with the outcome?

Pray, do tell.

PS. Norman, I have spent over 25 years in the IT industry... so I think I'm more 'fully fledged' than 'budding'.