13, 200, 000 MILLION EUROS STOLEN BY CORRUPT SPAIN

Dear All,

it is an unfortunate fact that many attempt to make the best of things and some even see some merit in being able to converse with their neighbours without the need for telephones, some are also happy with little indoor space since with permanent sunshine much activity is undertaken outdoors. If you don't actually live on site, the three months continuous rainfall is also hardly a problem.

but did they really intend to spend so much on so little...........?????????????

how many of these happy campers are actually supporting the class action against the developer that is only reported on their secret owners only website............nothing publicly negative you understand........it might affect prices and rentals.

it is of course true that with such a large public development built over a period of market decline that more short cuts may have been taken at the end than at the beginning, so standards may have slipped.

I think Casares del Sol is a rubbish build and not suitable for investment, my proposed apartment failed survey dramatically, not to mention the missing space and features, front-line golf etc. etc. etc. But of course I have not surveyed every apartment.

Perhaps I am difficult to please, perhaps even, that is why dear young Techno has retracted his offer of showing me round his investments?

I am of course as pleased as anyone at his success, however it was achieved and I look forward to hearing of the next increase in his property portfolio.

But it is the warning posts that would have been most use to me had I discovered EOS earlier, not the successes and I strongly object to them being stifled on hidden websites. The development forums have become a desert.

As much as I appreciate Techno's few sound and informative posts I nevertheless object to him invading every negative thread to spin his success and enlarge even further his ego.

However I am very sorry if anyone assumed that I was implying that acheving "budding" status took Techno a long time, not intended at all.

Neither have I ever suggested that his success has been nothing but successful speculation.

The "sillies" on here often refer to the unfortunate victims as failed "speculators".

Best Wishes

Norman

Hi Norman:

I think Casares del Sol is a rubbish build and not suitable for investment, my proposed apartment failed survey dramatically, not to mention the missing space and features, front-line golf etc. etc. etc. But of course I have not surveyed every apartment.

I was actually playing golf up at Casares Golf, and the place is deserted, a ghost town like so many places along the CDS.  There's absolutely nothing up there.  No shops, bars or restaurants.  I can't comment on the build quality, but I think you made a wise choice not completing.  Those flats can't be worth more than 100K in the current market.

Technoape:

Sanchez, I know you know me personally, so I'm confused when you state that I had a margin of luck in my purchases! Exactly what element of my purchases came down to luck? As you know, I don't believe in luck, however I do believe on providence.

As has been pointed out on other threads, there are lots of people who did all the research but still got into a mess.  When you found your lawyer, there's no way you could have known whether or not he/she was one of the dodgy ones.  You were lucky.  There was also no way of knowing whether or not your property was legal or not, especially in the Manilva/Estepona are where there was rampant planning corruption.  So you got lucky in this respect as well.

As Nassim Nicholas Taleb explains in his excellent book Fooled By Randomness, luck is often mistaken for skill.  It's human nature to do this, so not having a go at you personally.

Sanchez1

so true, and not recognising that fact is downright insulting to many of those cheated, and ironic in its naivity!

Sanchez1,

"When you found your lawyer, there's no way you could have known whether or not he/she was one of the dodgy ones.  You were lucky.  There was also no way of knowing whether or not your property was legal or not, especially in the Manilva/Estepona are where there was rampant planning corruption.  So you got lucky in this respect as well."

As I said before and as you know, I do not believe in luck! Never have, never will.

My lawyer was referred to me by various persons who had purchased here in the Manilva area. He was also referred to me by the Estate Agent we used for the second purchase, and the Estate Agent was referred to me, and is held in high esteem, by Justin himself. So no luck involved there.

I joined Eye on Spain, and other Spainish forums, before I purchased property in Spain, not after! And in doing so, I learnt what I needed to know before I purchased my first property, including finding out if the property was legally built and had all the relevant documentation to prove such,, and that the property and the urbanization were situated in zones approved for building. Again, this was done during the purchase of my second property.

Both purchases were new build, and not off-plan, and on both occasions I only paid a deposit of 6000€ and went straight to completion on both. Never entered into Private Purchase Contracts before completion, so if anything had gone wrong, I would only have to claw back my deposit. On both occasions, the deposit was paid via my credit card, and the money was held by my lawyer and not handed over until the day of completion at the notaria.

So again, no luck involved!

I find it incredulous that people don't respect that others may have actually done 100% everything correct and left no stone unturned during their purchases, and put it down to 'luck' that they made no mistakes.

People need to understand that both properties I purchased, were in established communities and construction had finished on both urbanization's, not just the property. I have always advocated on EOS not to purchase off-plan, as it is fraught with danger, unless of course you are mega rich and can afford to lose say 250.000€ as if it were pocket change!

Norman decided to purchase off-plan and due to various factors, including late completion, he decided with what many people advocate, to not complete. I would have informed him to put the money into a notarised account, and then proceeded with possible litigation, as by doing such, the Spanish Judge would see Norman's willingness to complete, but due to the Builder/Promoter not delivering what was agreed in the contract, that he has a legitimate case for compensation or even negating the contract he entered into. By not paying what you have agreed to pay, you are breaking the contract... that is the way a Spanish Judge will see it!

There are many people in this world, rich people, that will tell you luck had nothing to do with them making a fortune... speculation perhaps., or an educated guess maybe... but not luck!

 I've never locked myself out of my house! Now is that because I've educated myself so that I always take my keys (forget my sunglasses sometimes), or is it luck?

PS. And no! I'm not being smug! Just trying to prove a point!
 

Technoape.interesting reply, but have you not considered that the whole purpose of special accounts where monies were supposed to have been deposited for all offplan purchases (according to Spanish Law) were supposed to have made provision for the same eventuality that you are expecting purchasers to make, i.e. that the developer is willing and culpable to return monies if he breaks the contract also. Non of this cyphering off monies (or asset stripping) into anything other than the original purpose for the build as defined in the marketing literature and contract. Look into the facts and you will see that the developers are the ones at fault in the main here and not the other way around.

Indefensible what is going on in Spain right now relating to offplan protection as per the Spanish laws, not to mention a legal system that creaks at the seams to deal with the abuse in a timely manner that doesn't compromise the purchaser YET AGAIN....

 Sadly my advice now would be to suggest that no-one should buy in Spain until the Spanish government get their act in order and provide a legal system whereby the laws are recognised and duly effected in a timely manner so that those who are due monies as per judgements that have been handed down are fully compensated. Unfortunately I see the only way forward is for the EU to withold monies back from Spain as it's only when government pockets are hit hard that we will see any justice in this sorry saga.

This message was last edited by ads on 19/05/2010.

Ads,

I completely agree with your last post, and I always have!

Those that have supplied vast amount of monies in that way have indeed been ripped off and there is no defence, as you say!

Who is culpable, the Developer, the Bank, the Lawyer, the Estate Agent, the Local Officials... All of them! But at the same time you cannot put the blame squarely on the shoulders of a country as a whole, just because the legal system doesn't work swiftly, as the reason the legal system doesn't work swiftly, is that it is swamped with such cases! So much so that most cases are taking three to five years just to get to court!

There have been off-plan developments that were complete scams here in Spain, and also Bulgaria, Cyprus, Turkey, etc, etc! And those people who were caught up in such having plowed their life savings into them are the ones who I respect their position, as they have every right to complain and also every right for justice!

However, there are some that have put money into off-plan developments and decided not to complete, and in that case it is more difficult to state that you have been ripped off, as you have arbitrarily decided to terminate the contract, without using the method I described below. I agree it is unfair that you don't receive what you have been promised, however you cannot simply terminate a written contract without entering into arbitration or indeed litigation, and then still expect to get your money back!

Yes! It is unfair, but it is established practice and not just here in Spain!

There are other, much safer ways to purchase property abroad, including Spain, and that's why I jump to the defence of Spain when people say "don't buy property in Spain" when they have fallen into the second catergory above.

I understand where you are coming from Technoape but Spain being Spain, there is no way that the delays that legally compromise purchasers right now within the legal system are going to be sorted unless pressure is brought to bear on the government to radically improve the system. (They have had more than enough time to get their act in order to be honest). These delays within the justice system were in existence way before the numbers increased so dramatically, in fact back then the corruption was far more rife so it took a different form.......but we won't go down that route.

Everyone knows that so long as manpower resources/reform and more importantly a willingness to enact justice  is not made available that we will continue to see purchasers fall by the wayside as developers cut their losses and declare insolvency (taking the money and running). Sorry but everyone in Spain has to recognise now that the country as a whole is culpable to make their government act fairly according to the laws of the land and where the laws are unfair or unclear they need to be reformed to the benefit of all (many Spanish are caught up in abuses so it's not just foreign nationals).

Believe me. it doesn't trip off my toungue easily to suggest that folk shouldn't purchase in Spain so long as abuses of this nature are continuing to occur, and I've been asking that everyone put pressure on the government through people power for ages now, but there comes a time when everyone has to wake up to the reality that thousands of people are being compromised right now.........it's morally indefensible and enough is enough.

ads:

Sadly my advice now would be to suggest that no-one should buy in Spain until the Spanish government get their act in order and provide a legal system whereby the laws are recognised and duly effected in a timely manner so that those who are due monies as per judgements that have been handed down are fully compensated.

Remember, Spain is very much a decentralised country, so a lot of the blame lies with the regional authorities (Junta de Andalucia etc.).

I personally wouldn't buy anything on the costas because you're never quite sure whether what you're buying is legal or not and the overall build quality (at least in the area where I live) is pretty bad.  I'd also want somewhere that I could rent out or sell if I decided to move elsewhere.  I'd feel much more confident buying in the big cities such as Barca, Madrid etc (if I could afford it!!), but the costas is a big no no for me.

Interesting.

Take your point Sanchez but to use innocent folk as political pawns in the government/regional disagreements is totally out of order and ultimately the government should be made accountable to sort out the mess.

Dear Techno,

Thank you for the increased information.

I doubt that the UK is unique in providing safe off-plan purchases.

You have strange ideas as to contract law in Spain and odd view of the meaning of arbitrary.

Perhaps you should consult Maria who will tell you that in Spain everything promised in the contract has to be provide, including everything included in the brochure and any other promotional literature.

So you should not be afraid of off-plan purchase any more than your purchase of anything else that you order by specification, the normal trade practice.

I trust that your hot tub is living up to spec'.

Unless of course you already knew that in Spain such purchase is a minefield of corruption and fraud.

Given your failure to understand simple contract law, you was both lucky and needful in finding EOS and Justin to guide you, he having recently being stitched up by his developer.

Whilst I admire your diligence in the checks that you did, I am puzzled as to why you thought it necessary to duplicate the work of your lawyer, unless of course you had suspicions there also?

Given your level of caution, how is it that you did not also employ a surveyor, surely most important on established properties, where there is no building guarantee.

Still no doubt your luck will hold as always.

Regards

Norman

Norman,

Either you miss read or misconstrued what it is I am saying!

Please re-read and then post a reply based on what I have said.

"You have strange ideas as to contract law in Spain and odd view of the meaning of arbitrary."

Arbitrary (adj) - Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle

Arbitrarily (adv) - at random, haphazardly, indiscriminately.

By the way, the hot tub is fantastic! Thanks for asking.

I did use a Surveyor, on both occasions, including "Snagging" specialists, did you?

PS. I never retracted my offer for you to visit my properties, you never took me up on the offer!

I wanted a place in the sun, a retreat, an escape from the humdrum, of happy family faces( my dream) and a taste of the mediterranean. My purchase was off plan. I knew this had a greater degree of risk than that of a the purchase on a completed development, Why, because a lot can go wrong in the translation between a planned event and an actual one.

I believe I had a good estate agent, a good lawyer and the right development, my downfall lay in the recession. Others the glut of poorly located and  poorly built properties that had no right to have received planning permission or indeed be financially supported by the banks. 

Large numbers of people were taken advantage off ( ripped off, hoodwinked, swindled ).

The Spanish legal system appears slow to react, appeals leading to delays,with  lawyers failing to appreciate anguish or urgency and developers declaring bankruptcy and at the bottom of the pile those that can afford to loose the least. 

On a recent visit to that great city of Liverpool I was taken by the mass of apartment development along Princess, Albert dock and beyond, some completed some not. The local taxi driver spoke of the failed developments of deposits lost and of bankruptcy. In Belfast court action by a group of 'investors' on a delayed apartment block failed to release them from their contracts, They were left to purchase at prices inflated at the height of the market.

I agree with sanchez1, but I wanted a Costa property.

I totally agree  with abs, we need to bring the Spanish system struggling and screaming into the 21st century.

I agree with technoape the banks, developers, estate agents, local officials and lawyers all share  the blame.

I, like Norman took some reliance in the understanding that 'all' that is stated in the brochure will materialise, but now completed and with a bank takeover, I guess my lucks out.

I respect all your opinions and read them with sincerity but arguments, in my view are diminished by unwelcome undertones relating to different personal experiences.

Dear All,

given that Raff did all as well and as carefully as Techno, in fact all the normal purchase things that every one does without claiming to be "clever" or "special"........

what went wrong??????????

why is Raff not posting his pictures of his wonderful property that he completed on??????

he did so much better than Techno, he beat the thread headline, he bought off-plan in Spain successfully

how good is that????

what a shame the recession came, but it hasn't spoilt things for Techno, he paid full prices not off-plan discounted prices and he is still happily achieving top rents, so the recession is not the answer.

must be something else, perhaps the good fortune to meet Justin to warn you not to touch a Spanish off-plan deal at any price, and if you need it reinforced just ask the "double plot Owl of somewhere".

I don't know whether you will ever grow to be clever Techno, but you are certainly lucky and even have a touch of shrewdness.

Regards

Norman

PS can I contact you for a visit when I escape the padded cell????

Quote Norman "I doubt that the UK is unique in providing safe off-plan purchases."

I'm watching ITV2 as we speak, and they are showing Homes from Hell... this time in the UK!!!!

And guess what? New builds! off-plan! ... and they are practiaclyy falling down!!!!!

So Spain is unique in offering low quality build properties?

So Spain is unique in offering sub-standard legal protection?

So Spain is unique in ripping people off from there hard earned cash?

So Spain is unique in that it has crooked property developers, estate agents, solicitors, government officials, etc?

So Spain is unique in that the courts take a long time to sort anything out?

Is it HELL!!!!!!

PS. It is on again on ITV2 + 1 if you miss it!

Two wrongs don't make a right TechnoApe and sorry but this shouldn't be a competition as to who is the worst but how we can stop this from happening to other folk and how we can reform a system that wreaks of  abusive practices, that has a justice system in disarray with court delays growing longer by the day, that continues to use people as political pawns, that fails to follow through judgements and make those found through a court a law to be responsible accountable for their abuses. To repeat, it's morally indefensible no matter how uncomfortable the title of this thread may be to comprehend.......

Hi Ads,

I just wanted to make a point for Norman, and others, who seem to think that this sort of thing doesn't happen in the UK, or any other country other than Spain.

Your stance is the same as mine, in that we need to help to stop this from happening to other people, and also keep lobbying with MEP's in order to change law throughout the EU, in order to give greater protection to any EU citizen purchasing property in any EU country.

At the moment, such a unified stance doesn't exist!

In the mean time, we that post on EOS, that have either managed to avoid the pitfalls, or fallen fall of some or all such, should band together and stop pointing fingers and bickering, and instead actually offer advice, and the vast majority, including you and I, actually do so.

There are however a few posters on EOS, a small handful I must add, that always post negatives about Spain, due to their own dealings, however they never actually offer any constructive criticisms or advice, and it is those that wind me up. I used to ignore them, but a personal event changed my life forever seven months ago, and I still have trouble coming to terms with such, and therefore now find that sometimes I cannot restrain myself.

I am not the only person on here that thinks this way, but I do tend to be one of the most vocal and critical.

Dear Techno,

you are ranting again, whatever your circumstances and as Ads points out your "positive" rants do not contradict the truth of the thread.

You are correct in your assumption that a lot of "sillies" think like you and insist on abusing us victims, as you do - silly boy.

As to the program you watched.......................................you have stumbled into my territory and I would be happy to debate with you the sloppiness of our local authority servants, who are convinced that they are our masters, the inadequacies of our Building Control, Planning System and NHBC insurance, even the crooks in our Loss Adjuster Industry etc.

Unfortunately, lucky as you are, you are not yet clever enough for that, but who knows, give it time.

Sorry but keep trying and keep being lucky.

Regards

Norman

PS I am off now to look at your picture thread which I enjoy.

There's undoubtedly been some rubbish built in the UK, especially some of the city centre new builds, but I think the problem is much more wide spread in Spain, where the boom was out of control and at one point they were building more houses than the UK, France, Germany and Italy put together.

There's some rubbish been built in the Manilva/Casares area where we are.  My favourite is the block of appartments at the Aldea roundabout that look like they've been made out of lego.

Maybe we should start a new photo thread where people can post the worst appartment blocks?