Unfair distribution of charges

Hi Phil,

I think you miss my point.  As you know there are discrpencies everywhere - for example, I am paying 11% more than my frineds in Penthouse Block 3 without an expalnation...........but to be honest so what..........It does not really bother me.

Having the right budget to manage the complex is the big issue & I don't think we are qualified to make that call just yet.? If you are experienced in running a property company in Spain then I apologise in advance, but I am not.  Maybe after 1 year we will be?

It is a shame as this thread has clearly become a Jardines v Penthouse issue, because the Jardineers feel hard done by on the community charge. Maybe if you stopped to consider the reason why they are on average 30% higher it is because your properties are approx 30% bigger.  It is not Nuclear Physiscs is it!! 

As I tried to explain to George, the CC is nothing to do with Golf frontage, property price etc......That is taken care of by the purchase price in the first place.  Bigger properties paying bigger communidad,  Golf Frontage properties....more expensive purchase price.  End Of.........The 2 should not be confused - which this thread is clearly trying to do - without success

Nick

I have been following this thread(s) for so long now, I feel it is time to comment.

Most important to everyone is that the resort remains a premium development, so any talk of witholding payments is just going to shoot us all in the foot.

"your apartment has stairs to maintain", "yours has lifts", "yours have bigger gardens", "yours has a nicer pool". "yours has one more tree in it than mine"........

Clearly there are so many differences that do they really matter.  Most of the costs for these differences are small when you consider them in the total site budget that we are sharing out.  Just look at some of the big items (eg tv).  I dont plan to use the tv service, but accept that it being on the site, it is something I shall have to make a contribution for.

If I was to have any vote on a way to agree community fees, I would make it as simple as it can be.  ie irrespective of where your apartment is on the resort, the costs will be common based on number of bedrooms.  At the end of the day, 95% of the owners will only be there for what 6weeks a year.  Some might have extra rentals.  So if you consider it as a payment against usage, then most are very low, and permanent residents get far more for their money.  Obviously this is no fair either

So thats my vote, all 2 beds pay €Xpm and all 3 beds pay €Ypm.  No more arguing

Now that feels better  :o)

Hi Nick

Look let me try to explain this as simply as I can

Your property quotas are determined by your property value and internal area.

Example:

Penthouse property valuations are more than 2 bed Jardins

Penthouses about 67 m sq - 2 Bed Jardins 55 m sq

All other areas are communal and quotas applied to the resort should be divided evenly as all have equal right of use and we all receive the same services.

Penthouse cost between 60e to 73e

2 bed Jardins cost between71e to 93e

WHY?

Without 100% agreement this cannot be change later.

Nick,

I agree. As I said in an earlier post we need to give RPM a chance but have a process in place whereby we can fairly assess their performance against potential alternatives in a year's time. We need to make sure this budget is reasonable - given my limited knowledge of property management and lack of access to all the information I cannot express an opinion other than it is significantly better than the original. It is also not just about cost but about quality too.

The issue with differing fees will never be settled. Bottom line is that, now proposed fees have been issued, few people are going to agree to changes if it means an increase to their personal contribution. This is the case whether or not this budget is approved. Personally, I do believe that penthouses should have the same fee, 2 bed Jardin apartments should have the same fee and so on though. The only way this will now be resolved is if all fees for each type of property are lowered to the lowest common denominator. I doubt this will happen and wonder if it could legally anyway under the horizontal property law. 

Peoples expectations have been set.

Quick question.

There are two issues here the budget - the community out goings and the fees - the community income.  I'm not so sure that they are both set in concrete.  As stated earlier the fees are determined by quotas set in the property deeds and these need to be fully understood in terms of what can and cannot be changed.  The level 3 quota seem to be fair and correct, the level 2 seem unfair and incorrect especially within Naranjos, and the  level 1 is a moving target that will vary as new communities within the overall resort are completed.   The first thing to check is if the quotas being used by RPM are correct, Naranjos 2 (R9) doesn't seem to be as they do not match my deeds, next the new commiunity will need to discuss the quota system with PW to get a full picture of how these are determined.  This will not happen over night.

The budget is want the administrators are paying out to the variors service providors, I don't believe that the budget is set in stone either, just look at the changes that have been made over the past few months, BUT as from saturday these changes will need ( I assume ) the approval of the majority of the garden presidents? 

We all have a vote so use it as you will.  I just want owners to use the 'Oh but the budget isn't approved' as an excuss to not pay thier fees - "disaster that way leads" as Yoda would say.

Phil

PGM,

Thanks for your reply.  Just for reference the m2 in the Penthouse is actually 55m2 (I have measured it + 18m2  terrace (Cueta number is 67m2 - even our solicitor couldn't expalin that one!! - other than to say that it is typical).  I have not seen anywhere that links the Cueta to the purchase price - maybe thats where 55m2 becomes 67m2?

On the subject of fees, I certainley will not be withholding any fees - the sooner we get the show on the road the better.   Working together with the current administator (rpm) to continually improve the services & quality of the resort - at reasonable charges to the property owners

Regards

Nick

PGM

You seem to have forgotten the 50m2 roof terrace that the two bed Jardin apartments have - that all adds to the m2 of the property upon which we are assessed and goes some way to explain the difference in the charges between the Jardin apartments and the Penthouse apartments. 

Although we are in the Jardin apartments, and paying a higher amount than the penthouses,  I have to say that I agree with Nick (Skell) that the view over the golf course doesn't come in to this assessment of charges as that is reflected in the purchase price of the property.  It is based on the size of the properties - the penthouse apartments are not bigger, and when you take into consideration the private roof terrace to the two bed Jardin apartments, that to me is sufficient explanation.

That said however, I do agree that all two bedroom Jardin apartments, all three bed Jardin apartments and all penthouse apartments should be paying the same rate as other properties of the same type.  But it does seem that to change this now would probably be extremely costly and difficult to achieve. 

What is becoming clear on this thread as Nick says is that a -v- Penthouse argument is developing.  Surely we should all be sticking together and resolving more important issues than quibbling over who pays for lifts, gardens, pools etc.  Accept the fact that the Jardin apartments are paying more because of their size including private garden/terrace or private roof terrace.

If this argument continues, then the real issues will never be sorted out at the meeting on the 16th May.

Hi Debbie & Paul,

Thanks for your comments. There are clearly some very energetic & pro-active people from the forum, that are all trying their best to make life better for all Condadians. I guess it will be impssible to satisfy everybody all of the time - but If we maintain a United (Man) front, respecting each others individual issues, I am sure we can & will make Condado everything we want it to be.

Anyway, Good luck to all on the 16th, particularly those who are making a big effort to attend.  I wish I could go, but with a trip to Rome around the corner, it cannot be done this time.  Maybe next.

I heard from RPM today that if nobody stands for a particular Jardine or Penthouse, then a PW rep will be appinted for an intermediate period of time.  In that case, I am happy to let that happen until we can see who be the best candidate in the longer term.  Ideally a Spanish speaking resident  with some knowledge of what's involved.

Cheers for now........better make some Cars now - Nissan productivity well down today due to theis bloody adcitive forum!!

Skell

Debbie and Paul,

You look like you missed the info I posted earlier. here it is slightly corrected.

There are two quotas ( well actually three ) that effect your fees.

1.  Your Apartment quota.  ( lets call it level 3 ) This is your share of the garden/block costs and is calculated on the SqrM of living space NOT including gardens or terraces.  Looking at the figures I would say that these are all correct. A three bed in the Jardines pays slightly more than a two bed, but as not all apartments are the same, there are Types A,B,C,D which are different sizes so not all 2 / 3 bedsrooms will pay the same even in the same garden.  

i.e N217 is slightly bigger than N219 so will pay a slightly higher % of the garden lost

All penthouses have the same quota as they are all the same size and all blocks have 32 apartments. So each apartment pays 1/32 of the block costs.

2. Your Garden quota. ( lets call this level 2 )  This is the individual gardens  (and penthouse blocks ) share of the cost of the community based on the total size of all the apartments.  Taking Jardines 1 as an example, this is made up of Jardines 1 to 5, the larger plot pay a higher %.  I have asked RPM and PW how these are calculated as they don't seem quite right to me. 

3. Your Community quota ( lets call this level 1 )   The is the % of the entire CdA resorts budget that each community pays and is again calculated using some magic formula based on the size of the plot and number of apartments in relation to the entire resort. 

 The level 3 and level 2 quotas are in your deeds and should be fixed as the size and number of apartments within your community should not change, although this leads to the question of what will happen when remaining planned Villa Janas are built.  Will they be merged into the Naranjos 1&2 communities or form a new one?  If the former then the community quota will need to be recalculated and the figure in the deeds at the land registry corrected?

So the major thing to sort out is are the level 1 quotas correct and how are they recalculated as new communites are completed? And 2). are the level 2 quotas correct?  This is why I asked if anyone in the penthouses has thier deeds so I can check.  The quota being used for my garden is not the same as that in my deeds, but without having the fugures from the deeds from an owner in each garden it's hard to check.  As i have said above the level 3 quotas seem to all be correct and fair, it's the level 2&1 that need understanding.

So.  It's nowhere near as simple as saying all 2 beds should pay the same, as not all 2 beds are equal. 

But after Saturday, when the presidents are in place we should get access to the calculations from Polaris world and will be in a better position to go about correcting any errors etc

Phil

Hi Debbie and Paul

I agree we should be all working together for a fair result for all, however I hadn’t forgotten the roof terrace the quotas are based on the m2 in your deeds which is the numbers I was quoting and that as far as I understand it is the calculation that is used. However if all space is to be used in the calculation you are correct that roof terraces of 2 bed Jardins are 54.3m2 and the internal space is actually only 50.75m2 so together makes 105.5m2 and ground floor penthouses are 67.7m2 and 31.87 making a total of 99.5m2 and don’t forget they also have a share of the roof terrace about 10m2 so totalling 109.5m2

I have not made any comment about better views, lifts, grass cutting and stairs as if I had wanted a golf view I would have bought a penthouse and as far as the rest go I consider these all communal and we should all be paying our fair share.

All this is irrelevant as its not used in the calculation but just making the point that all properties are similar and receiving similar provision so although some differential is to be properly expected the gap in payments we have is clearly not fair, except for those only paying 60 or 70 euros then it’s bound to be fair, sod the rest.

Again none of the above is a personal attack on anyone but I do feel strongly that if this issue if not resolved will have a detrimental affect on community cohesion.

Phil

I agree that we must get on and pay the community fees and lets start running the resort. Further debate on the distribution charges can continue (and hopefully be resolved) but we dont want to start off on the wrong footing

As a matter of interest, what happens if the Cortijos de Alhama Villas ever get built ? Presumably they will contribute to the shared costs and given some of the properties will be in excess of 360m2 (just living space) then this should significantly reduce the burden elsewhere in future years.

We appear to sit in the middle of these charges at around the 80 odd euro mark and have felt pleased to see these reduced from the original 100 or so euro's. I think we have felt that this is a situation that should improve in time- as more properties come to completion, even with the reduced number as a result of delays or cancellation of buildings. It never occurred to us to query how the community charges are percentaged and PW didnt advise us- nor for that matter did our agents (who are friends- sort of) As a result we find ourselves in a quandary because maybe we should have been more pro active with our solicitors in delving into the pro's and cons of an off plan purchase, yet we are really  happy with our apartment. We feel that we have some  facilities with more to come in the near furture and, in truth, I didnt  expect all we were promised on completion (which wasnt expected till Feb 09 anyway)  

I know not everyone feels this way but I believe we should give the administrators a chance with the new budget- mainly because no one has a recommended new box of administrators who have any proven track record. Especially as there should be a host of Jardin Presidents to monitor whats going on for the next year. I fully agree that its galling to find yourself in the higher level of community charges and not clearly understand why, but hopefully that will improve. I dont think we truly believed the 50 euro's (£35.00) we were told once we looked at the size of the resort although we didnt expect £100 either.

To date this forum has been very supportive and a fund of good advice, observing it recently has shown how divisive money can be. I have queried the deeds calculation with our agent friends and their response wasnt very positive as they havent known of anyone who has gone down the line of getting their deeds amended ( but they were only talking about individuals who expressed concern about their community fee and deeds, rather than any group of purchasers) because the process is quite long drawn out and expensive.

What we are curious about is- as the all Penthouses complete ( in whatever numbers large or small) Jana Villas complete  and the Isla- do we as a community begin to feel the benefit on a monthly basis or does the impact of those completions and community fees only affect ius in 12 months?

Hi Jann,

With regard to the last point.  I'm of the view, and it's documented in the rules of association, that the moment that the construction of a new community within CdA is complete it becomes libal for community charges.  Initially the developer ( Polaris World ) will have to pay these, then they trasnfer to the new property owner as is unit is completed.

So, at that point I would expect the level 1 quota to be recalculated and the fees reduces from that month on. 

Phil

Jann

Probably as Villas and Isla join in they will pay into the system our fees will not reduce till next budget.
By then the budget (Kitty) will have had extra funding from Villas and Isla and hopefully as everything is relatively new we wont spend to much of the 20% reserve......outcome everyone will benifit with lower charges.

It should be interesting at the meeting on Saturday and i hope that when they ask for a vote on the budget we dont see a massive show of hands hopefully they will explain what we lose first? i would hate to see everyone agree then discover on Sunday the barriers up and no security and gardeners once a month?

Thanks Phil, hello again today. Thats a bit more positive news.

I had mentioned the Jana Villas and the Isla before in this context and been rather shot down in flames for suggesting their contribution could affect the community charges but I am of the mind that every little helps. Especially as we seem to have few ways of moving forward given the huge outgoings of such a development. I also think that for those of us who are not resident and are irregular visitors it's initially hard to see the whole concept of what we are paying for and yet not using. That early inspection visit and the suggestion of a 50 euro payment per month didnt  really link with the emotive feeling of owning a property and being part of a community. In some ways that's PW;s  staff  thought process too -they dont worry about what companies they tender services out to and contracts they sign up with as they are not living on the resort, its a business. These are the services they dont want to have to manage.

I'm hoping you are correct and the impact of completions and a greater number of owners (large or small) available to pay their community charge will affect our payments sooner rather than later.

Thats another take on the situation altogether isnt it , if there's no clarity on how the reductions have been reached ?.
 

The main reason for our charges being so high are that there should have been 7000 homes in the pool now there are 3000 and soon add Villas and Isla

Of course they will increase costs for pols, gardens, cleaning etc but overall should see a small reduction

If all 7000+ properties had been Built (Mirador and Golf Suites Etc) then allowing for inflation and drop in exchange rates we would be paying around 65€ which is what we where told.

It is the global situation that has caused this increase, but with carefull management a good administration team its effect can be minimised but again we do not want to lose essential services.

Yes, we understand the 'credit crunch' has had its affect and that even PW might not have expected the overall impact. You mention the villas in your posts- I had thought they were delayed and not so many of them anyway Sonatigh- do you see them having much effect on the c/charges.

At the end of the day we are still being ripped off,  €108,000 for the cleaning of the penthouse stairwells, i think says it all

Its nice to see that we have some ex-footballers on the resort. Chris Waddle on Narajos 7 should be worth a fortune - especially after that great hit 'diamond lights' way back in the 80's... Come on Chris... You should be paying a bit more than the rest of us for the community charges..... Howay the lads!!!