Community charges..... non-payers....direct action?

I presume it is different depending on which part of Spain you are in, but we find it very rare for a solicitor/notary to contact us re the issue of Community fees and if any are outstanding or not.  The only way we have become informed recently is when the seller has told us they  have found a buyer and we have asked them  to forward the details of the solicitors, otherwise we would be none the wiser, as many have changed hands without our knowledge and the fees are still outstanding from the original owner.

We have had several debtors either hand the keys back to the bank or they have just walked away from the property.  In all these cases the banks have paid the outstanding fees, so in that sense it has been better for the Community but of course sad for the owners concerned and not nice having all these empty properties. 

I have nothing against the Company Solutions and to be honest have never heard of them but am interested to hear if anyone takes up their offer and is successful, we could not employ anyone without  full Community approval so would never find out ourselves but wonder how much there charges are and if they still apply if they are successful but the owner has no assets.

So no, there is no debt yet - but a bit of a b*mmer that you have to pay the full amount this quarter since the deadline for the discount has passed.

We introduced a discount for early payment (which in effect is a fine for tardy payers) while I was president - and ever since, we've had not one single late payment. Happy days!

Going back to my original questions, you may have guessed that they came to mind while discussing this owner who owes €5k in a nearby community. The apartment was purchased about 3 years ago with a mortgage greater than 100% of the purchase price, so even if property values weren't dropping but had stayed the same, this owner would be in negative equity. What chance, really, I wonder, do the community have of recovering their debt? It's going through the courts now. I don't know how long it's been in the legal process, but this debt clearly goes back a while.

I Take your point Roberto, yes our fees are due quarterly, I'm told 1st Jan 1st April 1st July and 1st Oct are the due dates, our community gives a discount for payment made within 1 month which I thought was a good idea, never heard of it before.

Steve

I think you may find that your fees are due quarterly, in which case, January and February are not actually overdue yet.

Nevertheless, interesting and surprising. I would understand if the lawyer asked you to present one cheque to the vendor for the sale price less the amounts owed, and another cheque for the outstanding community fees made out directly to the community. That way, the notary could be satisfied that the debt (if in fact it is a debt yet) was being paid off. But as it stands, you may have taken on a property with an outstanding debt. So the bit in your escritura that should say there are no debts, is strictly speaking, wrong! Not a problem for you of course, because I have no doubt that you will pay the outstanding dues at the first opportunity - but the community's interests were hardly protected by the notary allowing the sale to go ahead anyway, because the community has no guarantee that you will pay, and may end up having to go to court against you. (won't happen of course, but hypothetically speaking)

I was speaking to the administrator of a local community this morning, about a specific property owner who he told me owes about €5000 to the community. I don't think the same would happen if this property was changing hands!

Maybe Solutions would like the name of the owner?

Roberto

Just a note on your first question

When we completed on our house a couple of weeks ago, our Lawyer had deducted all outstanding amounts owed from the vendor from his proceeds. The community charge hadnt been paid this year so we in effect had from Jan1 to feb 10 paid back to us and then we owed the charge from 1st Jan.

Like wise a proportion of electric and water for the same period was charged back to the vendor.

There was no representative of the community at the Notary

Steve

I hope Solutions is still watching this topic - I have a couple of questions. Anyone else is welcome to answer of course.

Quote: "Summons is in UK. Enforcement can take place in UK or Spain. Depends on where the best assets are."

What happens if there are no assets?

If a debtor owes community fees and the community pursues the matter through the courts, with a favourable result, we are led to understand that if there are no other assets, the court can order the sale of the property, and the debts can be paid from the proceeds.

First question: since notaries now require sight of a letter from the community confirming there are no outstanding debts, how can the property be sold before the debts are paid off? Who would actually buy a property knowing there are debts outstanding? I'm guessing a representative of the community (president) would have to be present at the signing in the notary, in order to receive the community's share of the proceeds, in order for such a sale to take place.

Second question: what happens if there is an outstanding mortgage on the property that will not be covered by the sale price? (i.e negative equity) This must be a very real possibilty at the present time. I presume a mortgage, which would have been registered against the property at the time of purchase, takes precedence over any other debts? So even if the court orders the property be sold, surely any proceeds from such a sale would have to be used to cancel the mortgage before any other debts are taken in to consideration? But what if the sale price doesn't even cover the debt to the bank? If a bank repossesses a property due to unpaid mortgage arrears, they may wish to sell it even for less than the amount lent, just to cut their losses on their stupid, irresponsible, reckless toxic sub-prime loan, but in this case, what happens to other debts owed on the property? I presume the bank would still have to pay the community dues before they can sell it?

I imagine a lot of community debtors now are also threatened with repossession from the bank. In such a case, surely it will be more complicated for the community to recover the debt quickly?

Hi Roberto,

Our community is looking into this as I have passed the information on to our president who is investigating the possibilities. Main issue at the moment is if this will have any impact on the current court proceedings that have been instigated in Spain. The president is not sure if we can  process claims additionally in the UK - waiting for our lawyers to advise. Perhaps Solutions could best advise.

Regards

John

Hi Roberto

This is worth looking into and when Karesun is back from the UK, I am sure she will pick up on this.

Or, she may have been shopping in the UK and bought a wooden stick with nails in like yours!

Is nobody interested in looking in to this any further? How about all those who have complained about bad payers in their communities?

(We don't have any, not since I got myself a nice big stick spiked with nails!)

Roberto,

Thank you very much - I really appreciate that.

Libby,

Summons is in UK. Enforcement can take place in UK or Spain. Depends on where the best assets are.

I would like to publicly apologise to Solutions for any (unintended) offence by my previous post. He has, as he says, in fact offered to meet (he sent me a PM) but like I said before, we are in the fortunate position of having absolutely no debtors in our community.

I'm certain, however, that there are others here who do, so it would be very interesting if someone came forward to take him up on his offer - no win, no fee, so what is there to lose?

Hi Solutions,

So, is a Summons issued in the UK court then?

With, as you say, judgement switched to Spain?

Or is it an application to the Small Claims Court? (but i doubt that, as that would have limitations on the value of the claim) 

What does it actually means. " with judgement to Spain"?

With all my respect,

Maria

Morning FibbyUK,

Sorry its my typing. Should be switch

Hi Solutions,

Is that a typo "swith judgement"?

Sorry to be thick if it's a real word, I just never heard it before.

FibbyUK,

I do it all through the UK courts with their jurisdiction and swith judgement to spain.

A disappointing reply. How can you doubt me if you have not even tried it.Roberto? A very subjective untested response.

There are many ways to get people to pay. I do it for a living. I am not making a scenario up.

As for setting up a business. Is that not what I am trying to do.

Roberto, I have answered all your questions quite politely and the response seems quite unfair. I have already said if you want to meet me I will come over to spain. Can that be the example of somebody who is to be doubted??

I'm just sensing a business opportunity here. If this works, we'll be far too busy to be answering questions - we'll be cleaning up all over the Costa del Sol!

The curious thing is, getting a court to rule that debtors must pay up is (relatively) easy; actually getting some scumbag with no money to find it from somewhere and cough up is another.

I'm not doubting Solutions (well, I suppose I am a little bit!) but if it's so easy, why has he not already set up business here? he could be making an absolute fortune.

Come on Solutions, give us a clue how you do it!!!

I don't even mind not paying my next installment of Community Fees just to see how it works!!

It's no problem.

It can be done for anybody in the EU (bar Denmark for some reason).

I am more than happy to answer any questions