What does Europe need to sort out this mess?

Probably throwing myself into the cauldron I have my own thoughts on the European problem although I suspect I will need to run for the shelters.

In 1919 after the Great War Germany was bankrupt had lost two thirds of its youth and was destitute & starving as of course were other Europen countries. Their own fault although Great Britain too was almost as bad  but it had its Commonwealth & the USA had hidden depths, but we are bothered about the USA & they only fought for 2 years!

Germany really struggled for 15 years not overcoming any of her problems & "regrowing" their youth, until one man, Adolf Hitler steathily came to power. Let me say here & now I am NOT left wing, not a Nazi not right wing & am appalled & hate & despise what the Nazi's & Hitlerf did. However he had superb vision of what to do, he put people back to work rebuilt Germany, got rid of raging inflation, rewrote the German language, brought back patriotism, put the smile back on the faces of his people & made Germany then one of the most prosperous country in the World. So in four short years he transformed a bankrupt, uneconomical, no employment country into what it became. 

If he had died in 1938 he would possibly be classed as one of the greatest men who ever lived. Sadly history proves he became almost definately the worst man who ever lived.

Germany though have always had this inburning desire to rule Europe. Do you not wonder why the German hierachy are trying so hard to prevent a break up. It is only a matter of time before they "buy" Greece. Will Spain be next? & so on to other European countries.

If Europe were to break up does that mean we will cease trading with one another? will this so seriously impede us? Will we not make our way trading independantly? Can we not manage out own finances? Do we need the hypocrasy, blatant corruption & financial burdon of the EU?

Think about it, who can get us out of this mess? Is their a man (or woman) of forethought who can form a stratergy  as happened in 1934? I have spent time in Germany & love the "average" German, but the normal German have been duped once don't let Europe be duped this time. I am now frightened as an Englishman of the future as never before.

Right tinhat time..........

I don’t think you can compare now to the past. In the past a loaf of Hovis was only 1p and that’s in old money. So things were cheaper to sort out then. Plus they had no idea what was going on, there was no Kay Burley on Sky TV telling everyone about corruption and King Juan Carlos 1 of Spain going off shooting elephants while his subjects are eating out of the bins.

I suppose the front runners for the job to sort it all out is either Alan Sugar or Donald Trump. Failing that we are stuck with old Norman on EOS or Roy Chubby Brown.

Woodbug

 Neither of of them are constructive answers, as I say apathy, but now with added flippancy........

Hang on a minute.  There are a number of things we can definitely be relied upon to do....

* Turn the other cheek (sorry to anyone who takes this in a religius context and is upset by it)

* Vote with our feet (instead of actually complaining about that substandard meal or poor service)

* believe bad things we're told about someone (instead of finding out the truth before making a judgement)

* Stay with our bank when we discover massive errors have been made due to a faulty, new computer programme

* Stay with our bank when we discover it has been involved in 'shady' dealings concerning interest rates

 (both of the above because, 'It's too difficult to change...can't be bothered.' 'They're all the same, anyway.' 'Ive always used them.'

* Don't get involved.  It's none of our business!

   etc etc etc

  Now, where's MY tin hat?

 All of them are exactly right & that's exactly what 99.5% of the popoulation will do.

Dear All,

as a first step I considered doing something except moan on here................

* Stay with our bank when we discover it has been involved in 'shady' dealings concerning interest rates

I was incensed - that is no way to treat joe - especially me - what had I lost - not clear, my lifetime interest only tracker mortgage could hardly be cheaper, however they should not have done it - onwards........

speak to the local branch of Swedish high integrity - no derivatives bank - no high street branches - special journey to business centre - very low interest on current account balances - high integrity - low interest on savings - high integrity - £15 per month account charges - high integrity - high mortgage interest - high integrity.

hmm - not for me what next?????

Regards

Norman

ps please don't pick on me Potblack, I am already bewitched

Germany though have always had this inburning desire to rule Europe.

Apologies but that is utter, utter rubbish. When was that ever the case, excluding WWII?Even then one could discuss finer points about who declared war on whom, for what reasons, initial intentions etc. A recognizable Germany only exists since Bismarck orchestrated unification.German push for hegemony was internal not external. Germany did not even have colonies until after Bismarck was retired and then only a few places not claimed by the other powers of the day plus one or two leases in China a la Honkgong for the British which were quickly taken and redistributed after 1918.

So one could look at a stretch of about what, a 150 years? Out of which about 15 years could be seen as supporting your claim. Has the Oxford English Dictionary redefined the meaning of always?

But maybe I am jumping the gun? Maybe you are talking about economic rule in which case I am looking forward to you enlightening me with an example since I have no idea what you are talking about.

And that is only one point among many I would take issue with. I am terribly sorry but I do not think that you picked your theme and the way you present it wisely or accurate. 

 The problems are multi-layerd and cross-discipline, which is likely why they will not be solved. It's not just economics, it's all deeply political and nationalist.

For example, there is a relatively simple problem to the bond rates which are curretnly threatening Spain, and the junk status of Greek and Irish debt which makes it impossible for her to borrow from the open market. This would be to mutualise Euro debt accross all EU states. Also the ECB could be empowered to buy up debts from sturggling member states, getting high interest debt off their books.

BUT, because of nationalist sentiments among EU members, key states have (and will continue to) block this, and so although the economics are reasonably simple, it just won't happen for political reasons. 

As such, there are plenty of solutions, but none that will really come to the fore as long as right-wing nationalist sentiment is the dominant political chorus in Germany, Finland et. al.

Within Spain, there is actually not a huge amount Rajoy can do, and neither does he have much desire to do anything anyway. He is largely at the mercy of the ECB and the still-functioning Eurozone economies. Thankfully for Rajoy, they are largely on his side as far as flogging off state assets to his donors is concerned, but that isn't going to help the economy (in fact, it might just help push it deeper into the red). 

UNEMPLOYMENT - Not an EU priority. Can only really be addressed long time by major stimulus to manufacturing and construction. Neither Rajoy nor the EU care about this

HOUSING CRISIS - THis is an EU priority, but it would require Rajoy to massively reform the banks through forced mergers and a toxic asset scheme. He has no apetite for the first and would need to go back again, cap in hand to the EU for the second, which would make him look bad (even though it makes sence). 

BANKING REFORM - The EU is semi-interested in this, but like housing it would mean Rajoy having to take on the banks, which he has absolutely no desire to do. 

BEUREAUCRACY - Rajoy and EU both desperately want to hack away at the public sector. However, both want to do it in a different way to one that would actually address the underlying problem. Rajoy and EU both want to privatise and contract out potentially profitable parts of the public service such as public hospitals, schools and infrastructure like Correos, RENFE, ADIF and AENA. However, the main problem lies in the civil service and direct government departments wchih have stone-age administrative practices and consequently low productivity, which needs huge modernisation and reform of work processes. Not being profitable, this is unlikely to happen - though a culling of the workforce with no sigifcant changes or imrpovements to actual procedures is highly likely, which will have the sole effect of exacerbating unemployment and making the beureaucracy even slower as three people attempt to badly do the jobs previously done badly by ten people.

MIGRANT WORKERS - The crisis is has led to a lot of African and E. European workers in the south to loose their casual jobs. They are a ptoential law and order time bomb and Rajoy doesn't know what to do. The farmers want to keep them as a useful pool of labour - higher unemployment keeps down the wages and makes the workers easier to control, but the local populace resent them. The only real solution is to enforce the laws that require workers to be properly ocumented and be paid a minimum wage, but that is eaier said than done given the rampant corruption and transient nature of the workers, and bitter resistance amongst farming companies.

 Not quite as easy, ohnoes. There is the matter of the Constitutional Court in Germany for instance. And I am pretty sure the reason for blocking mutual debt is lack of fiscal discipline and less then half hearted attempts at reform in some countries rather then right wing government sentiment. Also the need to sell such a matter to the electorate which is a tad reluctant to see pension funds, savings and other assets eroded and devalued.

Regarding high interests debt, Ireland went to the bond market and sold, can't remember was it 3 year bonds?, for a higher interest then it is paying to the IMF and Europe.

 Thank you Ohnoes & Robert for your replies, very interesting, but sadly this only further shows the massive problems that lie ahead mainly due to beaurcracy from the Strasburg's web of deceit & lies. Anybody who have not their accounts ratified for 8 years cannot be too straight.

I don't know, maybe I am in too deep a waters, but then I am only the average man who is outside looking in. But I can only forsee the break up of the Union & time, plenty of time, to get this mess sorted out.

Oh dear, the idea of Hitler being the world's greatest man in 1938 is very strange.  You should read "The Gathering Storm" by Winston Churchill and "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer if you want to comment on these things. 

You also need to understand that after World War II the USA gave three times the amount of money to the UK compared to West Germany through the Marshall Plan and the UK squandered it on social programs while Germany invested it in productive companies that are now world class, which is why it is the most successful country in the EU.

Lastly, please consider the consequences of Spain leaving the Euro, which is an event that is not impossible and, without aid from Germany, inevitable.  Any Euros that you hold in the bank may be converted to Ptas which will instantly devalue by up to 50%, as will the value of your property, but if you have a mortgage in Euros this will still need to be repaid in Euros.  Spain would not leave the EU and the devaluation will eventually sort out the unemployment problem as the young leave the country and also find work in Spain on a minimum wage which is now 50% lower. 

If that is what you wish to happen, I suggest you get out now while the going is relatively good but if you forecast the impact that this will have on the UK, whose biggest trading partner is the EU, you might find that you are headed for Germany - the land of your hero!

i think everyone should go back to there own currency this euro was never going to work out

what next

greece will come out of europe then many will follow

i lived in Germany for 7 years you need to remember that they have rebuilt the east since the wall cane down.and if you use a cradit card in germany it must be paid in full their credit rating is different than in the UK

Start with the big fish first. Something the UK to benefit from also.

I doubt there is any short term way out of this mess, even if Paul Daniels was elected. Past and current politicians have caused or allowed (banks) this mess to happen. It is a classic case of someone going berserk with a credit card that never thought how they would pay it back. And the only solution now is pay it back on the long term drip. 10 years. And to be able to do so other spending is going to have to be cut accordingly.

Politicians in any country with this problem are just going to keep kicking the ‘’can’’ down the road until the problem washes away. It is irrelevant to them if there citizens have to eat out of the bins. They know their table will never be short of food, gin and tonics, and the flow of the best wines.

The only short term way out of this is the Billy and Maude (B&M) situation.

B&M own a nice 4 bed detached. B&M go on a credit card binge. Then they both get made redundant. So they have to sell the 4 bed detached to pay off the credit card and buy a 2 bed terrace. They take new jobs at 50% less than they earned before. Now B&M have learnt their lesson.

So why not sell the kings palace to the Arabs etc etc.  Oh no that would never do, why should we suffer, we only caused the mess, keep the innocent eating out of the bins, there just peasant rubbing rags.

This message was last edited by potblack on 13/08/2012.

I am not sure, looking back at the last centuary and seeing how arrogant the Germans are on holiday, that Europe should ever trust them ever again.

If we are not careful Angela M will achieve European dominance without firing a shot, which is something Hitler failed so badly to achieve.

The Germans have built up the myth that there products are the best in the World, but I do not believe this to be the case.

Closer political integration is something we should resist at all cost and I cannot understand why the French who suffered so much at the hands of the Germans should be creaping up to them.

rapp

Closer political union is something we should resist at all cost and I cannot understand why the French who suffered

At the end of the day there is no instant cure & it will take many many years of austerity & teeth gnashing. As you say until it washes out.

The rich get richer, the poor gets poorer, we all know the saying, so we know who is & will suffer, as I've said before the maxed out credit card has to be repaid without the interest swamping the income.The trick is how to do that!

Oh come on guys, Volkswagen, which owns Audi, Lamorghini and Bentley is the most successful car company in the world; BMW and Mercedes Benz are German.  These are not World-Class products?

Britan's car industry is now dominated by Tata (India); BMW (Mini), a few Japanese and Korean companies plus a few hi-tech companies that sell hundreds not thousands of cars a year.

 In addition to this the smaller German comapnies the "Mittelstand" also offer world-class products on anything from fish packing to ball bearings.

This entire post has become racist and I am ashamed that British born citizens cannot accept that their country is no longer a dominant world-power and so feel the need to trash the most successful country in Europe.

You all need to accept the reality of today and not go back to WW II.  France needs Germany to survive.  No one is expecting a Blitzkreig so forget it and concentrate on economic growth rather than negativity.

"Don't think of what your country can do for you, think of what you can do for your country"