The Iron Lady - Did you love her or hate her?

The first thing to note is that Mrs Thatcher's first reaction was to go to the UN, not send a task force according to the memoirs of her then chancellor. That many of the senior defence staff, both civilian and military, threatened to resign as Britain would be seen to be a weak and ineffectual country caused her to change her mind very rapidly. Once her mind was set, it was all systems go.
The islands do contain something of value, the islanders themselves. If a jackbooted military regime marched into the Channel Islands would we say leave them alone, the islands aren't worth much? I doubt it.
As to no other value, look where it is located on a map. An international convention cedes territory in the Antarctic to countries depending on area of coastline (this doesn't apply to UK or the USA due to the early development by those countries) and would extend Argentina's area by a considerable amount. And the Antarctic is a valuable resource.
The other advantage to Galtieri was that his military regime was very shaky. Many dictators (and politicians) whip up support by patriotic and perceived historic rhetoric. Exactly as Kirchner is doing now with her rather unpopular government.
And please don't believe all that you read about untrained conscripts. The Argentinians had plenty of well-trained regulars backed up by conscripts (much like the UK in WW2). And their airforce certainly weren't green.
Hardly an act to get the Sun onside. The British public weren't all that keen to start until the Sheffield was sunk. Then it was all hands behind the troops as our boys were getting killed. After that it gained huge public support and did give a massive boost to morale back home. A bit of belief that UK wasn't, after all, a loser in the modern world.
It wasn't just the Falklands, though. Many of the things she was a believer in would now be impossible to reverse. Home ownership, for example. She was a strong opponent of entering the exchange rate mechanism but wasworn down, eventually, by her chancellors and the BOE. On that she was proved exactly right along with her opposition to the single currency. Along with Regan, she developed relations with Gorbachev but kept up a strong front which eventually forced the collapse of the soviet bloc. To my mind, making the world a far safer place until successors started annoying the Muslim world.

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''and I supported Bush and Blair (though with hindsight I agree a very dangerous game), I just believe common sense value has to be placed on a war''

I am really struggling to understand how common sense values placed on war  can be mentioned in the same breath as Blair and Bush??????    Or indeed how any comparison between the Falklands war and Iraq can be made. Margaret Thatcher was an honourable woman of principle and morals, Blair and Bush were dishonourable and morally bankrupt in every way.
 

This message was last edited by Poppyseed on 09/04/2013.

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 None of this alters the fact that the UK 'defends' when it suits, and casts adrift when it does not.   And I don't think piling on the alleged value justifies the lives lost.    

I did say that with hindsight the policies of Blair and Bush do not seem so smart but going into Afghanstan seemed pretty essential at the time - kick some ass and all of that,  but as a general rule, I don't like colonial sabre rattling whether it's from GB or anywhere else.    And I am pretty sure that those islanders in the Pacific would consider themselves just as valuable the 2000 Falklanders!  The fact that the Argentinian conscrips were ill prepared and at the mercy of a dictator does not make the loss less sad.

 

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 Clearly the Falklands were partly a question of national pride, but although they appear to be worth nothing they are quite valuable and Britain new that then and so did Argentina. Oil and gas was believed to be present under the sea bed just 200 km from the islands in Falklands waters. Since then oil has been discovered and they are just a few years away from producing, well that's the last news I read, at least.  I stand to be corrected. 

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I_love_javea says three positive things about Thatcher and then indicates that the only negative was that she was a woman. What does he mean by this? Would he care to explain?

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 Eggcup don't take offense, I'm not quite sure what kind of explantion you expect....there is nothing wrong with preferring men to women, I am not sure Thatcher would have agreed..... but times have moved on. 

The fact that she was a women I think put her under more pressure to "rule the roost" and not be ruled or controlled by the men around her forcing her to be stronger and more focused. She was a women of principals and I believe always had the best interest of Britain at heart. She was a leader and a strong leader putting modern day politicians to shame. I read in an earlier post "She put the Great back into Britain", I couldn't agree more,  something no "man" had done since Churchhill and no man has done since. Spain could do with a Thatcher-type figure right now to take the country by the balls and lead it forward with honesty and integrity and someone you know will fight for the country's best interests instead of tallying up votes and filling off shore bank accounts.

The Falklands was unfortunate but unavoidable, it is Brittish territory, it was invaded in a hostile manner and you can not expect any country to stand back and watch it happen or wait until everyone sits around a table to discuss it. If there wasn't any oil or gas in the region the Argentines would never had attacked. 

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This discussion seems to have focussed on the Falklands where IMHO Maggie was right to kick the Argies out.  But surely the truth is also that it was a ridiculous failure of her government that we allowed them to invade in the first place.

But surely Maggie's rein will also be remembered as the most divisive period in British social history.  She effectively created the "loads of money" and "on your bike" phrases.  Some of the policies, like putting the unions in their place were necessary, but others like  the Poll Tax rightly flopped.  The "fat cat" and "bankers bonusses" grew and fourished under Maggie, which for me are almost as absurd as the trade unions practices that she managed to curb.

Personally I've never understood this "Iron Lady" tag that she clearly cherished.  If you are really strong willed you don't need to keep shouting about it in such a dramatic and confrontational manner.  I believe that she was probably a lot weaker than her public persona and found it necessary to bully others rather than persuade them in an intelligent civilised way.

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Reply to eggy:

What's there to explain, the fact is that she was a woman. Ergo any man would have done an even better job!

ROFLAO 

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 OK let's not start with sexist comments please. Some people find it truly offensive and it's the quickest way to destroy the thread.

Thanks

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Reply to eggy:

What's there to explain, the fact is that she was a woman. Ergo any man would have done an even better job!

ROFLAO

Probably why a bloke didn't beat her and get in way back then, no man was better then her, she didn't become prime minister just because she was a woman, or did a man put her in power on purpose to watch her fail.

By becoming prime minister she actually showed up a lot of men who thought that "It's a mans world, girl don't but in".

Been no woman prime minister since her, how have the men done then? that should be quite an easy question to answer.

Try employing men to run your business, they do a great job of helping it to fail.

 

 

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 "I usually make up my mind about a man in ten seconds, and I very rarely change it."

Margaret Thatcher

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Since you say any man would have done a better job, are you suggesting you'd do a better job than her? To paraphrase one of her comments, men seem to like to talk, but women prefer to act. And it is not okay to make sexist comments about it being a pity someone is a woman. Would it be acceptable to say it's a pity Barack Obama is black? It's the same insidious offensive nonsense that leads to the persecution of certain sections of the population. They've recognised in Spain that by accepting sexism at any level, men and boys are set on the path of having no respect for women which can lead to violence against women and indeed murder of women. They have recognised this is a serious problem and have been working hard to combat these attitudes. It's demeaning when women and girls have to read these throwaway comments about 'pity it's a woman,' just as it is awful for young black footballers to have racist comments thrown at them. It's about time certain men learned to behave. If they can't they should go and live in a country where these views are more socially acceptable, like Saudi maybe.

Back to Thatcher and as a teenager and woman in my 20s when she was in power, I couldn't stand her (because of her politics, and despite her gender). With hindsight, I believe she was definitely right to protect the Falklands; we don't want to be a pushover for any bullying nation who decides to seize land that has never been theirs. I also believe she was right to take on the Unions (some of those old Labour men are about as sexist as they come so, as a woman, why should I be on their side?).

But in the end, she will primarily be remembered as the first woman prime minister, which was a remarkable achievement. To have her slagged off then for being a woman is more than tedious.

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Eggcup,
When such comments re gender are made just laugh or ignore because misoginists are not worth the effort.

I think it is a great shame that we have had some fantastic women in parliament, on both sides of the house, who would have been great PM's ....but maybe one day we will get another.....

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For all that there was and still is criticism about her governance nothing of the changes she made from the curbing of the Unions, the introduction of Poll Tax ( now called Community Charge) the sale of Council property, the privatisation of great swathes of totally inefficient industries has ever been reversed.

The reason for that is because the changes were the right thing to do and saved the UK from complete collapse.

She didn't take on Scargill, he took her and the country on and thank god lost, what a pathetic figure he looked when recently trying in the high courts of London to force the MIners Union to continue paying for his expensive Central London apartment ... truth isthe likes of him and there were very many Union leaders of the same ilk, needed to be curbed. They thought nothing of fighting through what they viewed as their troops on the ground.... aka ordinary men and women trying to earn a living but being prevented from doing so by these all powerful idiots who ran the Union Headquarters.

Maggie was an inspiration to me and many millions who saw the opportunity to improve our lives and be able to buy the family home...I was a member of the NGA ( major print union) and became a shop steward of that same organisation but saw first hand the way in which these organisations behaved behind closed doors towards the 'troops'... it was shameful and embarrasing to say the least.

Maggie deserves all the praise she gets and indeed the nation owes her a great send off ..... what a very great pity there was not a line of similarly strong and determined politicians to follow in her footsteps for we would not be in this position now where that the case.

Barry

 

This message was last edited by Fighter2 on 10/04/2013.

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She was an incredible woman. I lived in a mining community during her time as Prime Minister, and of course lived through the pit strikes. The mines were not economical and like any other industry, it can not continue to run if it is running at a loss. Aside from the pit closures, her strong leadership made Britain a better place to live, and made us all feel proud to be British.

 

RIP Maggie

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 Yes agree re the NUM.  It was they who wanted to take on the government and they paid a heavy price.   Living at the time in the north east of course I sympathised with miners' families - most of them did not even want to be on strike, and I think nearly a third kept working, but it was the only way forward and she had the guts to take it.    I am disgusted by the toasting on her death, though I am at a loss to understand the NUM man from Easington who said he would toast the 'victory' of her death.   Though I suspect it would not have worried Maggie.

 

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Hey Eggup,

Ease up, take a chill pill, 3 out of 4 ain't bad!

From someone who continually jumps on male forum contributors and plays the feminine card, I suggest you put a sock in it.

As for doing a better job than her I bet I can roll a better spliff!

Have a great day, I am, the suns out, you make me laugh and that's enough for me.

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by the toasting on her death, though I am at a loss to understand the NUM man from Easington who said he would toast the 'victory' of her death.

 

Look at most of the idiots on TV running around trying to let all in sundry think they are celebrating Maggie's death as if it was the best thing that has ever happened to them...apart from collecting their benefits that is......Many of them weren't even born when she was in power.

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 Agree - but to be fair, the Easington bloke is an NUM man from Easington Colliery - the last to close in the north east?  Or was that Murton - not sure.

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The Lady is not Returning.

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