3.4 million empty homes....where are they?

Hi Pash – The money in Spain is squandered on bent politicians, useless greedy banks, unwanted airports, social & civic buildings, unfinished health centres  as well as paying for an army of clerks to operate dozens of duplicated and unmanageable systems.

I am certain that Spain is nowhere near ready for electronic systems or automation. I recently visited a Gestoria  to arrange a car transfer and the details were recorded on an old electric typewriter – not a computer in sight! Must admit though the old lad who was doing the typing was pretty hot and as the carriage met the end of a line he whizzed it back to the beginning and once he really picked up the pace, it sounded like a metal detector over a Roman hoard.

Sadly, many Brits think there is a ‘Spanish Dream’ to be lived – but after a couple of years of backbreaking work with the Olives and Walnuts for a few litres of Olive Oil wages, the dream soon goes sour. Frustration with the system and laws that have no clarity compound the situation and lead many to regret coming here but are unable to move because of the plunging property prices.

The answer to all the problems in this fantastic country lies squarely with the Cortes Generales in Madrid who could not organize a p**s-up in a brewery even if we all brought our own glasses! The annoying thing is that we can see the problems and would do anything to help nurse this wonderful country back to health, if only we were allowed to do so.

I agree with the last two posts, especially 'Where is the money?' A large amount has clearly gone up the hierarchy into the likes of Barcenas' 30 million euro Swiss bank account (when his wage as treasurer of the PP would have just covered his living expenses)

‘In a state where corruption abounds laws are always numerous’ – Tacitus

Remind you of somewhere?

I noticed last year that when you go into a Bank there are signs telling you you can only pay bills on certain days. Utterly ridculous and if you are over in Spain for a few days and need to carry out a transaction, if it's the wrong day, you're stuffed. Idiots abound and have totally ruined a lovely country.

Yes, Pasha. In our village it's something like Tuesday and Thursdays, 8.30-10.30 only. I just sort of accepted this new rule, but now that you point it out I see that it is in fact ridiculous. How many stupid rules and stupid laws can they think up? Of course, because of the corruption and concomitant nepotism the best people for the job are not employed, so often it will be nincumpoops dreaming up this nonsense.

Thanks Ian - really interesting reading.

Are the price drops reported based on asking prices, or actual selling prices ?

If they are asking prices, then it's easy to imagine at the top of the boom that asking and selling prices were very close to each other, whereas now I would imagine people are putting in offers -25% -> -50% of asking price, and if offers are being accepted on that basis, the actual price drops will be very much higher than reported.. on a selling-price to selling-price basis, between the peak and today.

Spain does have many problems and if you do not like it why did you come in the first place? Blinkered dreams, blind faith and the LACK of basic research

Yes rules may have changed promises broken, dreams failed, gambles did not pay off - get over it that's life many people are far worse off and would swap places with you every time

If you do not like the rules or teh red tape or teh lackof computers etc then leave and go and do the typical British whinging somewhere else

Nobody forced you to come here and nobody forces you to stay or keep coming back

I am sure the wningers will carry on and say how they are locked in negative equity, can't find work etc etc  remember money is not everything and as old Norman Tebbit once said "get on your bike!!" There is always a way

Please do not kid yourself if you think the Spanish economy would not survive if all expats left - it managed for many a year without you and it would do again.

I did leave.

And to say people should put up or shut up is just the kind of attitude the corrupt elements want us to take, so that they can get on with their criminal ways. In our village, the deputy head once tried to get my husband to stand as Mayor. 'Please,' he said, 'we need someone British, someone who won't be corrupt.' Many decent Spaniards 'whinge' as much as many expats do and that is the appropriate response when faced with a criminality that has wrecked the country in many ways, and has been particularly hard on the younger generation of Spaniards who have no work and feel they have no future.

eggcup

fair comment

however, we do not have to put up or shut up we can get involved

I have said before the only people who put politicians (corrupt or not) in power are the electorate who cast the votes and if they continue to vote for the same politicians repeatedly then.........................

We all whinge from time to time but very few of us try and do something postive about it. I am sure your husband had his reasons for not standing for mayor but there are many others who would and could, they simply need a bit of support

history tells us it was worse in the past but guess what people made a stand and some things do change - even here in Spain.

Well said eggcup. I don't know who Tadd is aiming his comments at, but I have just stated facts as I know them, as have others. If you have experience of something and you know it to be true, that is a fact. It is not whinging. I too feel for all the Spanish who have lost their jobs and homes as many others have done. Last week I was served in Pizza express by a young well educated Spanish girl in her early 20's, I told we had a place in Spain, she said her and her partner had come to the Uk for work and to get on, as it was very bad for them in Spain and neither of them could find work. I take my hat off to them, it is Spains loss to lose young people like her. Thevreason people moved to Spain was because they like Spain, however I would say the majority had very little knowledge of the Spanish system and can now see it for what it is. Week after week there are reports all across the Spanish press of corrupt politicians and what they've been up to. We need people to stand up and say what's going on, that is not whinging.

Going back to the original post I can think of a couple of reasons why so many houses stay empty in Spain:

1. I know people who seemed to have a lot of money at their disposal at one point - usually after they'd been in political positions of power. Despite their salaries being around 25,000 euros, they suddenly had money to build, eg. 5 houses and to pay large amounts of cash to immediately fully furnish them. Property seems to be where the dirty money goes and so people would own lots of houses. I know ex-mayors and ex-councillors with between 5 and 10 houses and/or fincas each.

2. They and others would not want then to rent them out as it is so easy for tenants in Spain to stay in situ for up to 2 years while paying no rent and, if they like, also wrecking the house/flat in the meantime.

Personally, I wouldn't willingly hand over an empty property to homeless people who had been evicted for non-payment of rent or a mortgage. Not everyone in this position is a worthy recipient of charity. Sometimes they have chosen to spend everything they've got while the going is good, never saving anything, and then they have no back-up when the going gets hard. Although of course in Spain there is no Housing Benefit, so they may also face the choice of pay the rent or eat.

Some people would disagree and see all of the homeless as powerless victims, but that's not a tenable position. And really the only organisations that can help them are Government and charities or families may help. Private owners of property aren't going to be willing, because there is no legal support for them if things go wrong. So this is one reason for the seemingly contradictory situation of empty houses in a country where there are also homeless people.

I agree that there is some 'dirty' money in the property around.  But one of the reasons so many apartments are empty is because greedy (and naive) expats (not just British - but probably mainly), bought multiple properties to make a quick buck.   In a lot of cases, they never actually had any money to pay for the property, but were relying on selling one at a profit in order to keep another for holidays.   The same thing happened in Florida.   It means disaster for those people who bought because they wanted a holiday home in the form of empty property and unpaid community fees.   Not corruption - just stupidity.   

Now that, roly, makes a lot more sense than all these officials buying up property on ill gotten gains. On our area, an Icelandic chap bought 5 of the houses and a Spanish lady also bought 5. On the list of owners, several others have 2 or more properties and all bought off plan about 8 years ago. These are ones now standing empty, the ones the community is fighting to get ever increasing arrears of community fees from. Out of about 150 houses, at least 20 of them have multiple owners. Now, if that has happened in just the one community, I imagine all the others around would be the same.

That's a high percentage of people having empty homes nearly all year round which goes a little further towards answering the original question.

You are correct that agents don't make proper checks on tenants, all they are interested in is getting anyone in there to get their commission. We have had some awful tenanst renting on our urbanisation. The  owners in some cases are as equally to blame as they to just want the money to help pay for a property they have very little interest in.

Of course some of blame for the empty homes can be laid at the door of the greedy who took great risks in the heady days of the 90’s – Britain seems to have these periodic waves of euphoria and mass neurotic behaviour.  It has always been accepted that a gamble is a risk, whether it is in business or in the bookies and if you lose, that’s the end of it. There is a new breed now, who think that they have the right to get rich by investing in shares and schemes that will bring huge wealth quickly and when the investment goes bad they expect others and/or the governments to bail them out.  These individuals were also responsible for contributing to the massively overvalued property in Spain that caused today’s problems.

Add the other ingredients to the Greed Cake:

Greedy developers throwing up sub-standard buildings

Greedy politicians lining their own pockets

Greedy banks lending excessive sums to a huge sub-prime market

Greedy unqualified, unlicensed Estate Agents placing high values on defective properties

Greedy mortgage valuers agreeing with inexperienced Estate Agents

Greedy ‘Brokers’ supplying mortgages with false information – irrespective of the buyer’s ability to repay.

But please, spare a thought for the genuine thousands, maybe millions of people who are victims of this terrible on-going recession who have lost everything through no fault of their own. It’s very easy to criticise them from the comfort of your own fully paid for home on an coastal English enclave – you would be more selective with your criticism  if you actually witnessed some of the fear, desperation and heartbreak endured by these unfortunate folk and their families, of all nationalities.

But the DRIVER of it all was, as ever, demand.   Fuelled as you say by the attitude that 'I want a piece of that!!'   

And of course many genuine buyers have been caught in the collapse, but buying overseas is, and always was, a bit of a punt!   

The other side of the coin is that many Spaniards made a fortune selling previously worthless bits of land and ruins and some of us expats got landed with these, having paid quite a bit for them. These Spaniards weren't victims of anything and did very nicely out of it. At the same time, there would be the moan that the British in particular had inflated the prices by paying more than stuff was worth - it wasn't convenient to mention that this was because of the 'greed' (one might just say, financial nous and common sense to get as much as you can when selling something) of many Spaniards.

As I've pointed out in my story of our life in Spain, several times I came across the phenomenon of a Spaniard selling a property, pocketing all the cash and then behaving as though the property still belonged to them and really resenting the new owner as though they'd stolen the property off them ('It's been in our family for a thousand years' etc.). It's very simple. Don't bloody sell it then. But they wanted the large wads of cash.

In terms of the 'greed' of foreigners, there was a time when it felt as though you could do no wrong with the Spanish property market - and people were told that if they bought an apartment for 150,000 offplan, within a year it would be worth 200,000 etc. Personally, I never fell for the argument that it would make financial sense to rent these places out for the holiday season, recouping the costs of the purchase. The sums never added up for that, especially with so many apartments being built. But I don't blame people who did fall for these arguments, because it was a rising market and no-one really knew for a fact that it was going to fall so spectacularly. If it had continued to rise and they'd sold at the right time, they'd be called financial geniuses. A lot of it comes down to luck, good or bad.

I can only say again - the DRIVER was the demand.   If someone comes along and wants to pay over the odds for piece of land, the owner is not likely to be worried about what a developer wants to do with it.   Why should they be?

Any house is only what someone will be prepared to pay for it.   And if the demand is there - prices will go up.  Have a look at what is going on in London at the moment.    A garage sold for half a million - crazy of course, but if it was my garage I would not be questioning it.    

Wow just read some interesting and eye opening stuff from you all. My wife and i have just brought a property in Entre Naranjos as a holiday home for our family and are still in the fixing it up bit and what brilliant time were having. Yes i paid a 3rd of its original price  7 years ago but looking at how nice the weather and the people have been towards us so far i would have paid a lot more. I love the place you all live , the roads , the peaple, the food  and cant wait to come over more.  Purhaps you have all forgot the rat race muppet show you left behind you lucky punks. Good luck to you all and enjoy.