What would you do differently?

After almost four years I can honestly say that we wouldn't have done much differently, but we did most of the things that others have already covered. We knew what we wanted (a village home with outside space) and, as importantly, what we didn't want (overdevelopment, urbanisation, campo isolation). We researched many parts of the country and found two locations that met our needs, and then we made our decision.

We lived in the village for six weeks (without a car) in 2011 and decided that it was for us.  We planned everything and have enjoyed the time, the climate, the food, the culture, the cost and quality of life. and our Spanish is getting there. It's accepted that we have Spanish aquaintances rather than close friends, but that's the case if you were to move within the UK.  We kept a UK base so that there is always a Plan B, but so far Plan A is working well.

One piece of advice for anyone moving to Spain: don't underestimate how much storage space you are going to need if you buy a furnished property, and be sure to cost it fully.

I agree with most of the letters regarding the evil cheats like the Huge Agents who advertised on British TV, The Spanish Lawyer & The Builder, I feel the Spanish Governing Bodies are the largest problem. after waiting 8 years for a Habitation certificate on a complex of over 40 apartments. We still wait for the local authorities to come clean and consider the purchasers that have suffered the stop start situation. Even the Spanish Police failed us when the Builder let the unsold apartments & allowed squaters to take over in the empty apartments that purcheres had not completed the purchase of, The Builder failed to attend several completion dates leaving the purchaser out of pocket. Went on to collect rent on the apartments he did not fully own. These people stole the utility power and left those who did pay the huge debt they left behind.  The Spanish Lawyer told lies, and did not do the complete research. So many crooks that need to be put out of business.   Even the Administrators who are suposed to look after the interest of the purchasers, fail because the local governing councils take years to do the work and continue to back up the bad guys.

We personally did all the research over 6 years, 8 years later and we are still waiting, despite the extra costs to all the individual owners that continue to pay the Admin Fees on time. The builder still owes the complex hundreds of thousands for the incomplete work and utility bills that his renting tenants failed to pay, The individual owners had to pay Thousands to get the utility service, but still we do not thave the Habitation Certificate.

My advice to you is do not buy until, you have proof that the Habitation Certificate exsists, you will then feel more secure. they do say it takes 10 years. 18 months to Go?. Just Hope I live long enough to enjoy the feeling of freedom.

This message was last edited by Poedoe on 05/09/2015.

If ever there was a classic example of how corruption with protectionist elements has the potential to decimate lives then this is it... Likewise this acts as a classic example of why there is need for reform of a system that fails to correct ongoing administrative failures, fails to adequately address a licensing lottery where properties are allowed to change hands without legal licences in place, culminating in a system where innocent people such as Poedoe are used as pawns with little accountability or adequate compensation structures in place. It's a disgrace in this day and age..

I agree with your comments 'ads' and I'm sure most other fair minded people would as well. However the reality is Spain is like that, always was and undoubtedly will remain. There are too many vested interests involved to make a difference. Nobody has any incentive to clean up the system. Corruption goes to the very top in Spanish society and is engrained in the fabric of the nation. It's what makes the country tick. Foreigners don't stand a fair chance. To the Spanish Gringos are fair game. Many get lucky and we can read their story as well. Except they may never realise how lucky they really are.

If you want to avoid it; don't involve yourself economically in the country. That's one simple suggestion to do differently.

A great post, Mickyfinn.  I'd love to know the reasons why people buy a place in Spain. There must be many. For some it will prove to be a good investment, often for reasons other than financial. For others, it will prove to be a decision they regret.  We spent a year in Spain (ten years ago) drawn by the limited information provided on TV programs about buying property in the sun. Spain featured well.  We lived in a small village where only one other British couple lived. We wanted to integrate with the locals, do all things Spanish and enjoy the weather.  My Spanish was adequate by the time we moved, taking early retirement from our jobs.

After a few months, despite our efforts, it became obvious that the locals would only ever be our aquaintances even though they were very friendly and helpful, and we started to spend time with the British couple. We all need friends and they have remained so. After a year, disillusioned, we came back to the UK with the intention of spending only weeks/months at a time in Spain in different areas, something we continue to do. We decided we wouldn't buy (all the problems we read about put us off). There are so many Brits with properties in Spain that need rental income to pay their mortgage and/or bills. We thank them for making their places available to us.

Top post MFraser, it was our intention to move to Spain when we retired, however having retired we didn't feel the urge so strongly. After reading posts relating to Spanish govermment bureaucracy I realised that being a person who doesn't suffer bureaucrats gladly, Spain might just be the wrong place for me. For example I recently received a formal communication from HMRC informing me that I had underpaid tax in the last tax year. This is a total imposibility as all of my pension income is on PAYE, my none ISA cash has been taxed at source as have my share dividends, I am a few thousand pounds short of high rate tax so I thought that I would give them a call, an automated answer service informed me that I was in a queue that would take at least 35 minutes to reach the front of. Never deterred I decided to call at my nearest HMRC office, only to find it guarded by a uniformed guy who told me that the staff didn't do face to face interviews anymore, so I thought stuff them. Since this I have received a plethora of paperwork that roughly translated shows that HMRC cocked up last year and have adjusted my coding for this year.

Sorry to be so long winded guys, but can you imagine how I would have gone on in Spain? I've a fair idea when somene is attempting to lift my arm here in the UK, however I wouldn't have a scooby doo in Spain, the property market appears to be rife with thieves, isn't Spain where UK criminals used to run to? We have decided to spend time in a five star beach front complex where the superb staff do much of our worrying for us.   

Excellent posts! The advice not to get economically involved in the country I think is very sound, and concurs pretty much with what I said I'd do differently (a while back on this thread). Circumstances may dictate otherwise of course, and I was being a tad sarcastic (unlike me!); I had no choice really because I was running a business. But since the majority of people following this are probably retirees, I think it's something that should be seriously considered. How things have changed since the early days of EOS during the boom. Back then everybody was desperate to jump on the badwagon at whatever cost. Now, I think people are making much more considered & careful decisions. The hassle and bureaucracy and tax issues arising from embedding yourself in Spain are very real, and clearly many who have made the jump wish they had avoided it (i.e. done things differently). Food for thought indeed.

Maybe we have been lucky but I can honestly say our problems have been few. We originally had a maisonette in Jardin del Mar near the Carrefour in 2002. We bought it as a holiday home and then decided to make it permanent. We wanted to be in Quesada so we spent many a day driving around, and going to agents. All but one were totally useless. We decided to stick with Petra Honig. They had the best selection, their staff were excellent and the owners could not do enough for us. We eventually found the villa we were looking for made an offer and bought it in 2007. Petra Honig handled all the legal work after I had been to a solicitor and after one month he had done nothing at all. We are very happy here but at sometime in the future we will go back. Selling our villa will be a problem. Prices have to rise and the exchange rate to fall. Maybe in 2/3 years this may happen. What would we have done differently? Rented and kept a property at home. This was our mistake. Quesada is a nice area with nice homes and nice mix of people. It is quiet with very few holiday makers and rentals. We always said we would not buy on an Urbanisation with all its problems. To be told what to do by a president who is some jumped up individual full of his own self importance is not for me. The health service is excellent if anyone complains or says different then there is something wrong with them. I have never had a problem with paperwork, dealing with the Spanish or getting things done. Maybe because I make a big effort to speak the language. Just think back to when you were in the UK and there was someone struggling to speak English. What did you think. Bloody foreigners why are they here? The proble with the Brits is their culture it is so different to all the other Europeans. All the Brits want to do is go to a bar and have a good drink get drunk make a fool of themselves complain and about everything, and walk around with their bellies hanging out. So gross! Yes that is my other mistake. I should have gone where there are no Brits they are a total embarrassment. I hate flying Easy Jet or Monarch forget Ryanair. The Brits on those flights are the grossest people ever. Fly to Holland with Transavia or Vueling to Schiphol you are in a different world. People are well dressed, they have manners and are polite. Yes my 3rd mistake coming to Spain. Should have gone to another country. . .  

Well tonydean, we don't even go to pubs/bars in the UK very often, we do like a beachfront bar/cafe in Spain but can't recall either of us being drunk in one. You appear to have a problem with people, which is a real shame because as a member of the human race you don't have many alternatives.

I understand and agree with the recent postings but I would like to understand from the Spanish perspective, where they stand on these assumptions and conclusions.

In the main are they happy with the status quo or would they prefer to move towards a society that doesn't have to contend with all the knock on effects that follow in the path of endemic corruption or maladministration or professional negligence or even the "turning a blind eye" scenario. Is it ingrained in their psyche or has this come about as a downward spiral, something that they never intended.... i.e as a consequence of failure to take remedial steps/reform, or believe that this could ever be tackled and achieved?

Perhaps only then can it be identified if it is an accepted aspect to the Spanish psyche that foreigners should acknowledge and accept, or if underneath the outward appearances there is a desire to cleanse from within (I don't mean that to sound patronising).

.P.s.I wrote this before the recent postings relating to Brits behaviour in Spain... Yes there can be a large element that I totally disassociate with, the loutish behaviour, the excessive drinking culture, but equally there are many from the slightly older generation who are embarassed by this and don't wish to be judged under this generalisation. But I do wonder if some of this has come about by Spanish planners (whoever) encouraging/attracting this element of society by allowing tacky bars etc to grow, at the sad expense of losing the characterful little Spanish tapas bars.... In other words should they have retained more of the true Spanish culture in their coastal resorts....

This message was last edited by ads on 08/09/2015.

No Hep I have loads of friends and do not have a problem making new ones. What I depise is the typical Brit making a fool of themselves and dressing badly. I talk to many people of all nationalities and their opinion of us in general is not very comliementary. it is my opinion. It is in general the holidaymakers who klet the side down. To say I have a problem with people because I express an opinion that differs from yours is out of order. You do not know me and therefore cannot judge. Agree or disagree that is your right but to make disparaging comments is something else. .  

Where did I proffer an opinion? 

I would never buy again only rent

too much red tape for the slightest thing

try harder to learn spanish

also NEVER stay in spain in july and august (heat is horrendous)

The principal problem in Spanish culture that breeds corruption is patronage. Patronage is a cultural phenomenon in all Spanish speaking nations. Patronage among extended families, nepotism and back slapping is not considered a social evil, more a positive or desirable trait both within communities and political circles. Spanish people generally keep their business, family and personal relationships their entire lives. They operate within an incestuous circle that feeds upon each otherl.

When a political party changes in the town halls it gets stuffed with party hacks, hangers on and favors are re-paid with soft jobs. It’s the same in Central and regional governments. A meritocracy is an alien concept.

Culture deeply engrained is almost impossible to change or influence. So Spain will roll on as always. The politicians will say how they are cracking down on corruption whilst through the back door arrives their brown envelopes.

If you choose to live in Spain you either accept that’s how things are or bang your head against a wall until it drives you mad..  

Mickyfinn, I've just given you a like, not because I liked what you said, but because it was obviously the truth. I accept the social corruption, try South Yorkshire/North East Derbyshire during the Scargil/Blunkett years. However monied folk are very unlikely to take their life's savings to a country where the powers that be ought to wear robber's masks.  

Fascinating observations Mickeyfinn, but where does justice fit into this equation for those compromised by this ongoing system? Is the conclusion that there is no outside influence within the European construct that can indirectly enforce change to comply with greater adherence to moral/ethical authority, as part of the terms and strategy for growth, etc?

You mean like they're doing in Greece? 

Just as an aside...."presidents who fall just short of dictators"....."a president who is some jumped up individual full of his own self importance is not for me"....as someone who has struggled (and suffered) to maintain a community in a place where slapdash work ethics and gross unprofessionalism are rife, for the benefit of absentee owners who are unappreciative at best and rude and insulting at other times, I would say to those who criticise: try doing the job yourself for a year. Otherwise, be glad that someone else is actually willing to do the job. Put up, or shut up.

Yes Roberto, but from a different starting point!

The present conservative administration in Spain does not tolerate outside interference towards any greater adherence to moral, ethical or accountable authority. Many have tried that line and it falls on deaf ears within the parliament and the Spanish Judiciary. I don’t actually believe the Spanish judiciary is necessarily corrupt. Just inefficient, inward looking,incompetent and suffering from the same malaise as the civil service.

The government under Rajoy also appears impervious to negative publicity believing their markets will recover no matter what is thrown at them. Recent growth evidence suggests he may be right. Why?

The climate in Spain and the attractions northern Europeans find so attractive supersedes any concerns about a corrupt state, dodgy property market and crooks or mildly dishonest traders operating everywhere.

Take as examples Las Vegas and Miami in the USA for instance. The mafia controls almost all of the gaming and hotel industry. Does that knowledge deter ordinary people spending time and money there?

The answer is of course not. The Americans like the northern Europeans love a certain edge to their vacations. The feeling they can do almost whatever they choose without consequence. A complete release from the pent up stress they experience in normal life.

The ex-pat who happens to live in these places of course understandably resents that manifestation. Many comments on this thread support that. I would suggest to them they are both living in false hope anything might change as well as the wrong place. There are many other destinations within Europe that are the complete antithesis of southern Spain with an almost decent climate, rule of law and wide- spread accountability. In the end we choose what suits our economic circumstance and live with it.

Agreed Mickeyfinn.... But such lost opportunities when you consider what could be achieved from better accommodation  of the rule of law and greater accountabilty from within, and how this might improve the standard of living in Spain in the longer term, assuming of course that this would result in greater consumer/purchaser protection and incentivise investment from a far broader spectrum than you describe.

Good judicial rulings against the Banks are starting to occur in some regions, but sadly they still leave behind in their wake a chasm of unaccountability from conveyancing professionals and administrators who continue to remain unregulated and unaccountable for their failures that set in motion the devastating effects that Poedoe and all too many others have experienced, which does Spain a grave disservice.

Good regulatory bodies would be a starting point to make difference in Spain, but as many have observed any willingness and appreciation of longer term benefits in terms of improved standards of living from the implementation of such measures will have to come from within.

This message was last edited by ads on 09/09/2015.

This message was last edited by ads on 09/09/2015.