But when your personal opinion is in the minority and you totally refuse to consider the opinion of the democratic majority what description springs to mind?

rma37: "Roberto, before I respond to your comments, can you tell me if you actually live in the UK and voted in the referendum?"

Actually I wasn't looking for a response and frankly, am not interested in one from you. Perhaps since Johnzx has so frequently been at pains to remind us all that he lives in Spain, didn't vote in the referendum and has an Irish passport, you should instead ask him why he thinks he's entitled to any opinion at all, and why he decided to start yet another thread on essentially the same topic as the other one running, which simply serves to highlight the divisions and anger that Brexit (whether it ever happens or not) has undoubtedly caused and which will take a generation or more to heal.  

Democratic politics are not just about satisfying the majority opinion. The minority view counts equally especially when a voting majority is small . What matters most is achieving consensus. That leads to social and political cohesion. 

In others words you cannot completely win anything at the expense of others.

The minority view counts equally

Nonsense. In a democracy the majority view prevails (or should).

It was also explained to the people if anyone cared to notice.

Nonsense again.  I had lived in Europe before 1972 and understood the European Project. I’m not sure many Belgians or even Germans understood it let alone the Brits who were being sold the EEC on a false economic ticket which led to the UK crawling to the IMF just five years later.

To claim now that people only believed in a common market ignores the democratic process that has taken place ever since 1974 and British accession.

Most governments particularly conservative ones stood on a ticket of not giving more power to Brussels, then meekly signed up or were even complicit in signing away more of our sovereign power. Our subsumation into the EU quagmire was in no way democratically authorised.

The referendum was long overdue!

To answer the question: many politicians and funcionaries both in the UK and EU who continue to put thier own biased wishes and ambitions above the will of the electorate are jointly responsible for the mess we find ourselves in.

But an electorate that blindly elects any old rubbish as long as it comes with their favoured wrapper does perhaps bear some responsibility. It is good to see more and more people taking an interest in politics in the UK. It is good to see the impending de-selection of those who refuse to represent their electors. I hope that people start to take an interest in the fitness of their proposed representatives in the future but I suspect in the long run things will return to the status quo.

What a revelation........ " I had lived in Europe before 1972 and understood the European Project. I’m not sure many Belgians or even Germans understood it let alone the Brits who were being sold the EEC on a false economic ticket which led to the UK crawling to the IMF just five years later."

The word "led" fascinates me.

I can still remember the happy sunlit days years  between 1970 and 1974 - being sent home from school because of power cuts,  strikes, three day weeks, my mother cheerfully queing to buy candles, the collapse of most of UK heavy industry, the oil crisis in 1974 and rampant inflation. 

I had absolutely no idea that it was our membership of the EEC that caused the near bankruptcy of UK plc and not the aforementioned. My eyes have been opened to the light after all of these years.

I wonder where I can buy my own pair of rose tinted glasses?

Britain joined the EU or Common Market on 1st January 1973 along with Denmark and Ireland.

Britain originally joined the Common Market as a way to avoid its economic decline. The UK's per capita GDP relative to the EU founding members' declined steadily from 1945 to 1972. However, after joining it was relatively stable between 1973 and 2010.

The UK also held a referendum in 1975 on continued membership. 67% voted to remain.

tteedd: many politicians and funcionaries both in the UK and EU who continue to put thier own biased wishes and ambitions above the will of the electorate are jointly responsible for the mess we find ourselves in.

How true, especially the politicos in the ERG and UKIP who have done well from constant agitation against the EU

The only people responsible for the mess we are in with Brexit are the people who dont accept a democratic decision and are trying to stop us from leaving the EU, in the main for their own selfish interests. Many of them have chosen to live their lives in other countries yet think that they have a right to dictate to us living in the UK.

Correct Jarvi. ** EDITED - Against forum rules **

I assume these insults are also directed towards a sizable portion of the UK population and MP's in the parliament who are attempting to honor the 'democratic' vote in the least damaging way for the country.

Usually insults being when argument or ideas are lost. 

Well said angeleyes.

I wonder how many of the extremists who post on here try to help other people who live in or have interests in Spain, and how many are only posting things relating to their clearly biased Brexit matters?  I keep reading about the EU "project", and how it is better for people. Try telling that to the 39%, 33% and 32% under 25's who are unemployed in Greece, Italy and Spain compared to the 11% in the UK. As I have said many times these people are only interested in themselves and to hell with the rest of us.

The vote we were told was a once in a lifetime, we would be leaving the Customs Union, Single Market and the ECJ.  Perhaps the said extremists having not lived in the UK for many many years didn't understand. One comment I keep hearing is "I didnt vote to become poorer". We were told by all the economists and many extremists if we voted leave we would immediately lose up to 400,000 jobs, be in recession, houses prices would crash, blah, blah blah. yet people still voted by a Majority to leave, so in effect did vote to become poorer. None of the doom and gloom happened, and what price can you put on freedom.

The EU will eventually fail because one size does not fit all, and the ordinary citizens of Europe will see that they are just being taken for an (expensive) ride....

Mr Finn we would all welcome any post from yourself or anyone else that was new information not already splashed all over our TV screens. But we are tired of the same old boring arguments, opinions and history lessons. It is these that are insulting peoples intelligence and patience.

I assume these insults are also directed towards a sizable portion of the UK population and MP's in the parliament who are attempting to honor the 'democratic' vote in the least damaging way for the country.

Your opinion again Mickyfinn. ** EDITED - Against forum rules ** There is only one way to honour the democratic vote, and that is to obey the instruction from the majority of UK residents and leave the EU forthwith.  Now they have all gone on holiday!

I had absolutely no idea that it was our membership of the EEC that caused the near bankruptcy of UK plc and not the aforementioned. My eyes have been opened to the light after all of these years.

All that you mention is true, except that somehow british industry became more efficient during the three day week with with little loss of output. It is good to open your eyes to the wider picture. I did not say the EEC caused the near bankruptcy but it wa a factor and certainly did not help.

British industry was ineficient, with many companies using equipment from the 19th century. But joining the EEC also led to unfair industrial competition from France (government subsidy) Italy (black market home production - no tax) and Germany (inbuilt power advantages due to agreements before we joined).

We were told by the politicians that the EEC would provide a market for our industry and cheap food. The reverse was the case.

MP's in the parliament who are attempting to honor the 'democratic' vote

The problem is that we have a majority of MP's who have no wish to leave the EU and are doing thier best to frustrate the democratic vote.

The UK also held a referendum in 1975 on continued membership. 67% voted to remain.

I was part of the 67%. I believed in the European project. I did not understand that it would lead to a severe loss of democracy and a bureaucratic state.

In 1975 all three political parties campaigned to stay. Taxpayers money was spent by both the UK government and the EEC on persuading us to stay. Most of the press was in favour.

It is hardly surprising that the older section of society determined not to be had twice.

I hoping to live long enough to watch the chickens coming home to roost in the UK. There will be negative consequences do not doubt it. I won't take any joy from it. Just the knowledge the mistake will be rectified by another generation.

I long ago accepted the UK would have to leave. So, in fact, do most remainers. They have their eyes firmly fixed on the future and the campaign to rejoin the EU when the UK population realises it cannot prosper on its own. Back to 1972 in a sense. Meanwhile, we all need to prepare for the inevitable  A much poorer nation.

Most decent remainers will hope that the UK will prosper outside the EU, especially the ones who live here. "Watching chickens come home to roost" sounds like you are hoping that the UK will fail and will take joy from it, but it wont play out like that the UK will suceed and prosper whilst the EU will be further diminished especially with the money that we provide no longer available.  Once we are out of the corrupt club people will realise that they have been played for fools for years and others will want to follow. (Unfortunately the EU traps countries into it). Its a bit like the Hotel California "you can check out any time but you can never leave"

Javi- I made it clear in my post I would take no joy from Britains decline.

The government have now abandoned all no deal planning that has cost the taxpayer £4 billion. All that stock piling presumably will now be sold off to Del Boy. It's estimated by experts the referendum result has so far cost £1.6 trillion in foreign investment and company costs moving to Europe.

Mucky, "Waiting for chickens coming to roost"" doesnt sound like someone rooting for the UK post Brexit. IMHO you are hoping that the UK will fail on its own so that you can say "I told you so",and as I have said before it wont happen, the UK will suceed outside the corrupt club. The experts you mention, are they the same ones that said we would be in recession, job losses etc etc immediately after the referendum or is this a different set of experts, or even some of the civil service (the majority of whom voted remain)?

The expression is only a synonym. Used for saying that bad actions or mistakes from the past have unpleasant results in the present.