Is the EU responsible for Brexit chaos

A labour spokeswoman this morning on Sky news advised under questioning that the Labour Party’s role was “to bring down the Government”....... what ever happened to reasoned debate and seeking out solutions with sound DETAILED economic data to uphold the democratic vote and decision to leave the EU in a manner that best suits the country?

This is parliamentary anarchy from within, without any due concern and respect for the electorate’s decision.

No wonder people distrust Parliamentarians when they have agendas far removed from delivering the best outcome for the country and its people. It’s a disgrace.

I’m still waiting Mickeyfinn for unbiased INTELLECTUAL economic detail relating to your objections to the no deal scenario. Not rhetoric but actual detail similar to the detail advanced by Patrick Minford. Without trusted detailed economic comparisons of forecasting models and their reliance ( by this I mean how successful they have proved to date), how can you possibly just rely upon theoretical rhetoric?

IMHO good reasoned debate based upon detailed intellectual economic analyses has been overridden by political rhetoric I’m afraid. All too many Parliamentarians sadly appear to have accepted sensational sound bites far removed from economic reality, just to serve their political agendas.... We should be given the actual detail behind the emotive outpourings suggesting “ catastrophic outcomes”, and the like.

Irish border

If UK say they do not care about having a border between N. Ireland and the South,  or between N. Ireland and  mainland UK, do not set up any border,  and they will just accept they may lose some customs duty, will that mean  the EU will in effect be stuffed?     

And, if the EU insist on a border their side,  then that will be their problem.

I guess they cannot make UK create a hard border,.

Just a thought

This message was last edited by johnzx on 13/05/2019.

This message was last edited by johnzx on 13/05/2019.

Exactly Ads.

Those that say leaving without a deal would be a disaster should tell us exactly why this should be.

The government has had three years to prepare for leaving. Time enough to prepare for and ameiliorate any problems.

And with respect to the deal, we should be told exactly what the £39B is for so that we can asses for ourselves if we really want to pay our £1500.  if the sums are correct, if the money we paid when we joined and the assets we have paid for have been accounted for.

Absolutely right John, why should we care about having a Berlin Wall and Check Point Charlie?

Tteedd the £39B is blackmail money. Pay it or we will do everything in our power to destroy the UK economy. Tell them to stick it where the sun don’t shine, come on Boris or Nigel the price is right.

Well said John.

If the EU want a border let them build one on their side. (Its a load of balony anyway as the ROI set up checkpoints very close to the border on a regular basis to catch people from the North evading vehicle tax)

tteedd How can 274 labour MP's, 16 ulster unionists and 11 ERG members (the people who consistantly vote against Mrs Mays bill) be anti establishment?

I think you know these Labour MP's were whipped to vote against the deal because the Labour Party has a policy of wanting to stay a customs union. Parliamentary politics is how democratic governments do business.

Ads if you want to understand what a no deal scenario really means it is very simple. List all the advantages of being an EU member, free trade, free movement, political cooperation et al; Then take them away and consider a country trading only on WTO terms only and their tariffs structures. Which option is likely to guarantee prosperity?

Trump has just announced 25% tariffs on all goods from China. China naturally has retaliated. Such is the dog eat dog environment of world trade. Being an EU member protected from the slings and arrows of global politics is almost a cosy place to be in comparison.

The Uk is free to choose which road to take. The country is certainly in a crisis of its own making probably the worst crisis the nation has suffered since 1939. It did once attempt to be a global trading power whilst recovering from global conflict and shedding its colonial past and found itself bankrupt. It will again I suggest if its people follow the likes of Farage. However, each generation is free to choose its own path and either learns from history or is destined to repeat it.

Hahaha. I am psml. Advantages free movement and political cooperation. Thats a joke right?  Free movement - 3 million extra people using our services including health housing jobs and benefits causing untold damage to UK born residents who have paid for these services all their lives and find themselves in a long queue to access them. 

Political cooperation - is this the same cooperation where they tell members that they have to take more migrants after Merkel invited all of Africa to come to Europe to live, or is it the one where if your country does better than expected (the UK a few years ago), and although having a massive National debt had to pay more money to the EU so that they could share it amongst the ones who CBA trying.

As for History lets look at another system that had pushed people together reluctantly the USSR - look how that ended. The EU will be finished in a few years when the European people realise that they are being played for fools. The only reason that more dont leave is that the EU traps them in. Its like the Hotel California - you can check out but never leave.

Javi.    It is U.K. who made the rules which govern who has free access to the NHS nothing to do with the EU that is why it is why things are different in spain.  U.K. could change that 

John you are correct, it is a mystery to me why the UK wants to provide and fund the world heath service using British tax payer’s money. No wonder they have been risking life and limb for decades to get here.

I have asked the same question several times and it has always been ignored or perhaps no one really knows the answer. I just assumed the authorities can’t be bothered as it’s just tax payer’s money and the tax payer’s are too embarrassed to acknowledge being taken for a ride. Maybe I am being cynical and we are a very caring country, but what about our pensioners living on the breadline who have paid in all their lives? 

This message was last edited by angeleyes1 on 13/05/2019.

It has become clear that the labour party have no interest in any agreement. They have introduced a red line of a second referendum. Something no democrat could agree to.

Interesting to note that comentators believe that, left to themselves, Mr Corbin and Mrs May could come to an agreement.

I have wondered for some time now where all this anti-EU sentiment originates from. Particularly since the EU has done many things to improve peoples lives. If you are interested there is a list here and also the likely impact in the UK of leaving.

https://theconversation.com/what-has-the-eu-ever-done-for-us-57248

However, the real source of the impact of anti-EU sentiment I suspect lies in the decade long austerity programme. Necessarily implemented after the worse financial crisis since the thirties. When people are hurting they seek a bogeyman to blame. Instead of accepting that a lack of government spending in all sector services of the UK economy led to many real problems. They then wrongly blame migration and then the EU. Once that is fixed in peoples minds an almost religious zeal takes over. It then becomes a form of tribalism. Us against them with many cheerleaders on the sidelines willing to help them along for their own personal advantage. Give people the means to kick and wreck the status quo with a mistimed referendum and well we have the disastrous result.

After Brexit takes place the austerity programme may well seem mild in comparison to the UK trying to make its way alone in the world under WTO. Yet in a way, that's the only method that will shake their beliefs to persuade and convince leavers where they were actually better off. It is also a generation thing.

There is also a generation demographic at work here. Generally, older people tend to support leaving whilst younger people support remain. They have the fortunate advantage of time on their side and can reverse the process in the future. I am convinced they will. 

Nothing to do with austerity. You need to wonder again. The EU has done absolutely nothing to improve my life and many others in the UK, they do not pay us to be a member we pay them, and then they have the nerve to give us some back as if its some sort of gift. I am sure as people get older they get wiser and will realise the EU is a protectionist racket. (Hopefully in its present form it will have collapsed by then anyway)

Well sadly there are people so deeply entrenched in their belief system they are unable or unwilling to see there is another valid point of view.

Given the years of austerity and the rabid social inequality in Britain, I understand, even sympathise why Brexit happened. I can see the need for change both in the EU and the UK. It's just that I believe leaving the EU is not the answer to the problem. Change from within would be far more effective.

It's looking increasing likely parliament will vote indicatively for a binding customs union which only fell by three votes last time. A second referendum may also stand an excellent chance if a free vote is held. Labour MP's must now defy their Whips otherwise this inconclusive situation will drag on until the autumn.

"Well sadly there are people so deeply entrenched in their belief system they are unable or unwilling to see there is another valid point of view". Yes and you fit that bill exactly. As you haven't lived in the UK for 15 years you have no idea of what people who live here really think. You keep hoping that Brexit will be overturned or that we will have a Brino. Leaving the EU is not the total answer to the problem but its the first step. Those of us that live in the UK believe in our country. When the UK joined it was a different place with different attitudes. I remember being on strike at least 3 times in the first 4 years of working, what for? Nothing really. Parliament like the EU is going to have a big wake up call which is long overdue.

It is U.K. who made the rules which govern who has free access to the NHS

There are rules, but people working in the NHS say it is not their business to enforce them. They just treat people from all over the world and complain that they do not have enough resouces.

Meanwhile there is little sanction for not enforcing them nor for defrauding the NHS.

There is a fear of being called racist, wanting to sell off the NHS or not caring that makes the government scared of acting.

"I think you know these Labour MP's were whipped to vote against the deal because the Labour Party has a policy of wanting to stay a customs union. Parliamentary politics is how democratic governments do business."

These Labour MP's have free will. Some of them have strong leaver constituencies and will probably pay heavily for opposing the deal. Either way the point is they far outnumber the members of the ERG and it is clearly their fault that the deal has not been agreed.

"Ads if you want to understand what a no deal scenario really means it is very simple. List all the advantages of being an EU member, free trade, free movement, political cooperation et al; Then take them away and consider a country trading only on WTO terms only and their tariffs structures. Which option is likely to guarantee prosperity?"

Free trade? The EU has massive trade barriers with the rest of the world. This not only holds our economy back but it makes third world countries poorer than they would otherwise be.

Free movement? No advantage whatsoever and has been pointed out a severe strain on our infrastructure.

Most countries would easily be persuaded to deal with us on a low tarriff basis, the objective is not to trade on WTO terms but if we have to there would be winners and loosers and certainly the EU has no interest in tariffs with us.

Prosperity. The GDP of the EU has been growing slower than the rest of the world for many years and it's proportion of trade is dropping rapidly. We have been doing somewhat better than the rest of EU, long may it continue!

"Trump has just announced 25% tariffs on all goods from China. China naturally has retaliated. Such is the dog eat dog environment of world trade. Being an EU member protected from the slings and arrows of global politics is almost a cosy place to be in comparison."

China has been stealing intelectual property and trading unfairly with the west for decades. Trump is just saying enough is enough. If he had a little finess he could claim it is an intelectual property tax and allow companies, who could prove they had lost out, some of the proceeds.

"The UK is free to choose which road to take."

Micky! The UK has chosen!

The problem is that there are MP's who are perverting the will of the people.

"There is also a generation demographic at work here. Generally, older people tend to support leaving whilst younger people support remain. They have the fortunate advantage of time on their side and can reverse the process in the future. I am convinced they will. "

Sorry to disabuse you, but everyone gets older. (and wiser).

Given the odd exception, Micky.

You still wearing those flares?

This message was last edited by tteedd on 14/05/2019.

Tteedd I do not disagree with you, but it’s wrong.

Where else can you get paid not to follow the rules and do as you want now that British Leyland has gone?

As for racism, that would make most if not all countries in the world racist. I do not know of any country that provides Free State health care to foreigners.

It is only the UK where Burt and Betty pensioner sit with a one bar electric fire on Christmas day while the government sups G&T and NHS staff do as they like, all paid for by Burt and Betty’s lifetime NI contributions.

Angel. Yes I think we are on the same page. Most people know right from wrong but their opinions have been ignored.

On the face of it being in or out of the EU makes no difference on these matters. But, with people getting so angry with our MP's over being ignored over Brexit, it is just possible that all the Burts and Bettys might start to stir themselves on on other matters too.

The turnout for the referendum was the highest ever. I do not believe those that say they are so fed up they are never going to vote again. Lets hope people continue to take notice and vote for people who really do represent their interests. Not just those who have the right colour badge.

If this was to happen something good might come out of this whole sorry mess.

I voted out,  now know that was a waste of time and it seems if it was just a 'Lets see what the country believes in' thing from the government, well tteedd our local voting came up a few weeks ago and I did not vote, and I wont ever vote again in any elections of any kind, and I do know that if I don't vote I cant moan about what I don't like with the elected parties but that wont matter to me because it's been proved they don't take notice of what we vote for anyway.

Many people I have spoken with and not given over my reasons why not to vote have said the same, time will tell if they change minds.

I had a reason to write to my local MP some months back, something I have never taken any thought to,  but always been told if you don't tell them how can it change, what I got back, yes he answered back a few months later with the biggest load of crap and gobbledegook he could come up with and pretty much nothing to do with what I asked him, quite normal for any MP I know, I thought I made very little sense, but this chap took the biscuit.

A chap I know well, I thought until I saw hime on TV canvasing for his local elections as a councillor which he kept very quite about, so I pulled him up about this and his answer was...' Money for old rope, don't have to work hard, can still do my day job, get paid just over £7,600 a year plus many other perks'.

No, I wont be voting for anything ever again.