ITV show on the Costa Del Sol

Dear 1962 and all,

my question was posed without anger, I cannot see why anyone should become angry, let alone outraged, because others are not doing what you are doing, when were you appointed supreme arbiter and by whom???

what does anger me is the constant suggestion that innocent people who have employed expensive experienced "professionals" to expressly protect their interests in a transaction that they themselves are not familiar with and worse still in a language that is foreign to them, are then accused of not doing their homework or are remiss in any way at all when they are conned by those same "professionals".

As to drinks and cellar work, I am no expert but doubt very much whether there is any real complexity or experience needed to dispense modern beers. One wonders of course why if people are sold a going concern business, why there was no take over or learning period???

As to Kathy doing her own thing in Spain, in her own way, that's great and I am sure the history with detail would make an interesting tale and perhaps help others.

Regards

Norman

Oh dear, Kathy, you seem to have lost this one on points. Oh, sorry, no, it's a complete KO:

"these are the people who want to create little britain in spain they infuriate me"

and from another thread: "I have heard rumour we are getting a Marks an Spencer and Boots Chemist at La Canada Marbella be great if this is true"

Unlike Bob and Nigella, I am not familiar with La Marina, but I recognise it as similar to other places that have been built from nothing and marketed mainly to foreigners. Very few Spaniards would be interested in such developments anyway, simply because they are not the "real" Spain and they probably regard such places with some suspicion - which could be why we don't hear much about Spaniards having their properties threatened with demolition. Personally, these urbanizations leave me cold, but I have no gripe with anyone who likes them, or who chooses to live in a bubble. Each to their own.

"re. the couple who bought the bar.  The pair of them could have got themselves a part time job in the catering trade before they ever bought over here if it was only to know how to pull a pint and familiarise themselves with cellar work".

Have to agree with Norman here. I don't consider myself an expert either, and all due respect to someone with 40 years in the licenced trade, but there's no "pulling pints" or "cellar work" to learn here - you could train a monkey to run the Rusty Nail in a couple of hours. God knows why they were exhausted from "working so hard". They had no customers, for crying out loud!

  However I must agree that  agents are only out for themselves and it would be nice if they had the decency to discourage people who obviously haven't a clue but we all know that is not going to happen"

Agents are out for themselves. Hmm. Is that a crime? They're not running a free education & advice service. They, too, after all, have to make a living. Their fee is paid by the seller, for whom they provide the service of finding a buyer. They show potential buyers a selection of businesses. The buyer is free to make his/her own decision. If the agent had pointed out the blindingly obvious (that the bar had no customers) you could argue that they would be doing their client (the seller) a disservice. Yes, you could argue that the agent should not take on crap businesses, but then his portfolio would be rather light. Remember, these muppets came back to this bar after viewing 10! Clearly, not having catering experience was the least of their problems.

Roberto, I am not on this site to gain or lose points it really doesn't matter to me, you are the second person who has not agreed with me and you have both made your points, as I have mine, I based my opinions on what I observed, and I stand by what I said, and re La Canada let's wait and see.

No more to be said kathy.

I'm quite sure anyone following this thread will have realised my "points" jibe was tongue in cheek, but I'm sorry if you were offended by it.

Everyone on here (or any forum) gives their own opinions. I don't have a problem with anyone having a different opinion from mine. There wouldn't be much by way of discussion if we all thought the same. So why no more to be said?

Re: La Cañada, let's wait and see what?

normansands said

''what does anger me is the constant suggestion that innocent people who have employed expensive experienced "professionals" to expressly protect their interests in a transaction that they themselves are not familiar with and worse still in a language that is foreign to them, are then accused of not doing their homework or are remiss in any way at all when they are conned by those same "professionals".

This is such a good point.  While we know some are very naive, by believing agent clap trap and glossy brochures, most people do their best to protect their hard earned money, and only hand it over when they  feel confident that trustworthy legal bodies such as lawyers, banks, town council offices etc are making sure that their money is safe from the hands of sharks. When this trust is betrayed, (which is far to often the case in Spain) they are left with no option but a long and costly court case just to get back what has been stolen from them by those in a position of trust.  This is the reality for many, it's nothing to do with ''not doing homework'' or ''leaving their brain at the airport'' it's just being conned by those liars who should not be that position of legal trust.  Whatever country, there is no excuse for lies, deception, fraud, corruption, it's just wrong, and should be treated as such, with the victims recieving justice long before having to end up in a long and costly court battle. If Spain won't recognise right from wrong, then I guess the current property situation in Spain is unlikely to improve much, and who's fault is that!

Dear All,

Oh dear,  I have struggled all my life with a very serious problem, that of believing what people say and write, most especially the professionally qualified.

I find it extremely difficult to accept that anyone would work hard and perhaps fail the first time to achieve this elevated status only to despoil and disgrace it by dishonesty or lack of integrity to any degree at all, no absolutely not, no way, not at all, unthinkable, whiter than white is the order of the day, isn't it???

No doubt I shall have this problem to the grave and it seems that I am not alone if the furore over our M.P.s expense claims is a guide.

I also have difficulty with the concept that known and registered evil-doers are entitled to the best legal defence at my expense, after having already paid for the expensive police costs to catch them!!!!!!!

I don't seem to receive much support here in my claim that the main culprits in the Spanish property scams are the lawyers and their derivatives the notaries and judges.

Whilst perhaps secondary, the agents and developers are clearly in the same boat.

It therefore concerns me to read:-

Agents are out for themselves. Hmm. Is that a crime? They're not running a free education & advice service. They, too, after all, have to make a living. Their fee is paid by the seller, for whom they provide the service of finding a buyer. They show potential buyers a selection of businesses. The buyer is free to make his/her own decision. If the agent had pointed out the blindingly obvious (that the bar had no customers) you could argue that they would be doing their client (the seller) a disservice. Yes, you could argue that the agent should not take on crap businesses, but then his portfolio would be rather light. Remember, these muppets came back to this bar after viewing 10! Clearly, not having catering experience was the least of their problems.

Perhaps I am just a naive "Muppet" rising to the bait but I believe that there is no excuse for deception and dishonesty in any profession at all, no matter where the commission payment is coming from. We don't know what was said in this instance but I was once told by an agent, in the presence of a lawyer, that a holiday complex had a 70% and rising rental occupancy rate from their own on site administration, the lawyer advised that it was indeed a good investment, A later check with the same agent's rental office , by chance, was that the true figure was 7%.

 YES IT IS A CRIME AND SHOULD BE PUNISHED AS SUCH.

Regards

Norman

Roberto said:

I don't consider myself an expert either, and all due respect to someone with 40 years in the licenced trade, but there's no "pulling pints" or "cellar work" to learn here - you could train a monkey to run the Rusty Nail in a couple of hours. God knows why they were exhausted from "working so hard". They had no customers, for crying out loud!

Sorry, but I have to pick you up on this. A monkey? A couple of hours? How absolutely typical this is of the average punter.

I work in a bar. I've managed plenty, both here and in most of the UK's major cities. And you would be amazed at how many people think that running a bar is child's play, or indeed, achievable by a barely-trained monkey. Even when their expertise is the square root of sitting the other side of the bar getting increasingly soused and decreasingly sensible.

Hence the number of bars that are failing here at the moment. There are individuals and couples, who have worked hard in their respective trades for a number of years and decide that now they want the easy life. Hell, they deserve it. So, they come to Spain and buy a bar.

First mistake. I mean, who said that running a bar was ever easy? If it's a small bar, so you can't afford staff. Particularly if you want to do it legally. So, you and your partner have to do it all. You need to be open all day and half the night to make sure you don't miss out on customers. But, once the last customer has gone, there's all the stocking up and the cleaning up to do. Then you have to ring in your orders, which may or may not get delivered, depending on the supplier. And then there's the stuff you have to go and collect yourself, the bits and pieces which no supplier actually delivers out here.

A bigger bar? All the above, but now you have the problem of whether your staff are trustworthy. And let's face it, they're not. If they're not stealing from the till, they're giving drinks away to friends. If they've actually bothered to come into work in the first place. Because more often than not, you've employed someone who's out here for the summer and wants to go out and get smashed themselves when they finished work, but aren't old/professional/experienced enough to come in and work through the resulting hangover. 

And then you have the customers. You've got the smart-arses who, without a minute's experience of the trade will tell you, at length, just what you're doing wrong. You have the Billy-No-Mates who believes that included in the price of a beer is your undivided attention and who feels slighted when you deign to serve another customer rather than listen to their increasingly inane drivel. You have the joker who repeatedly does the same routine he's been doing for the last 20 years. You have the complainer. The one for whom the prices are too high, the measures too small, the ice not cold enough, the nuts not nutty enough, the opening hours not long enough. And that's before he tells everyone in the place, in a stage whisper, that you're not a patch on the previous owner. You have the beer brave who want to pick a fight in a family bar every time they have two pints inside them. You have the clinically depressed, who want to drink to forget. You have the indulgent parents with the kids who run riot. You have the kids who want alcopops. You have the pukers. The coke-heads. The graffiti artists. The vandals. Etc, etc. 

Then there's the paperwork. Not just the books, although they're difficult enough in themselves, but if you know what you're doing (and you don't) you have your P&Ls, your margin sheets, and your weekly/monthly/annual comparison spreadsheets to fill in. Then there's the marketing. Do you advertise in the local free papers? Leave flyers under windscreen wipers? Do you offer discounts?

And that's just touching on a small number of the issues affecting the unwary bar owner. You have to be a cleaner, an odd-job man, you need to be able to place orders, bilingually, you need to be a delivery driver, a stockman, a supervisor, a thick-skinned, empathetic negotiater, a bouncer, a child-minder, a counsellor, a PR man, an accountant, a marketing expert and occasionally, when all those jobs are taken care of, you have to be able to serve a drink. And not just a beer, There's the 83 variations of a cup of coffee. And the cocktail that, despite the number of cocktail books you keep behind the bar, isn't listed in any of them. Why? Because the person wanting the Rick's Caribbean Special has only ever drunk it once before, at a bar in Majorca, owned and run, you guessed it, by a bloke called Rick.

But hey, a trained monkey could do it, right? 

Dear All,

what an excellent post, great to hear from someone who knows.

But if you think that is bad, try running a small hotel with bar and restaurant facilities.

The bar flies book into the restaurant for a meal at seven sharp because they are going out to celebrate something or other.

Having put the fish starter on to lightly cook you attempt to prise them away from the bar, no luck, just one more aperitif.

Turn the grill off and try to protect the fish from curling up.

One more leads to another and endless social chat, then a break to their room and the loo, refreshed they are back, not to the restaurant but to the bar to carry on where they left off, you finally serve the meal at 9 pm embarrassed at it's condition, but not to worry two bottles of wine wash it all down with gusto.

After coffee they set off for town and arrive back sometime in the morning, waking all in the process, are late for breakfast, cannot eat it, so in the bin.

They are late again clearing their room after the cleaner has left and you discover one of them has wet your one thousand pound luxury bed.

Such is business for the unwary.

As to Roberto's view - They, too, after all, have to make a living.

All have to be accommodated, fed and looked after, it is their "human rights", even the criminals and if they have a family they have to be looked after too, don't they??????

If you make your living by any form of deception, or hiding the truth, surely you are guilty of fraud?????.

Regards

Norman

FOR NORMANSANDS
 

I agree with you totally as I deal with problems all day long all week long. the expression that people leave their brains on the plane is not acceptable. The professional sector who are ill advising would be resident or holiday home purchaser beware your days are numbered.
In the past both fees set by real estate’s were very costly. Add to this the lawyers, tax, notary, registry and it costs a pretty penny (that is not to say that there are not honest real estate companies out there because there are) the least you would expect is to be given correct information and to be looked after. It is amazing how many purchasers have bought without even being told that they would be paying all the costs involved with the purchase, only to arrive a year later and find a bill from the tax authority of, 20,000 euro was the latest. The sky is the limit on the payment of this tax known as plus valia. It depends on the the declared value of your new home. The law does state buyer pays all minus the plus valia paid by the seller. This is not written in concrete. A vendor can either ask that you pay this tax or a negligent lawyer will let this slip past and allow it to be written into your purchase contract. After all the sale may have not proceeded if you had been aware of this.
So please in fairness to the new kids on the block and some of the old timers it can be very difficult to obtain knowledge on how the Spanish laws work. No one has the right to take advantage.
 

Great posts, Norman & HybridAnglo. Especially the last two - found myself smiling and nodding in agreement with everything said. I think there's material for a book or two there!

Just for the record, although as previously stated I do not consider myself an expert and take my hat off to anyone who has time served in the trades, I do actually have some experience in both the bar and accomodation businesses. Hence I recognised so many of the scenarios mentioned, and could add a few - e.g. wife being confronted by a knife wielding maniac in a crowded bar while trying to deal with the police in a foreign language who are trying to clear the crowds outside your bar who are blocking the traffic; hostal "guests" using the shower curtains as toilet paper (out of malice, or ignorance?) I could list as many as you like. But back to the point.......

I have made it clear many times before that I am equally outraged as others by the fraud and corruption perpetrated by Spanish politicians and legal professionals, but a little perspective and context, if you please.

"I believe that there is no excuse for deception and dishonesty in any profession at all, ........ We don't know what was said in this instance" I don't know what was said in this case either, but let's just remember that we're talking about an English estate agent here, (so we can forget all that stuff about Spain getting it's house in order) a breed that rightly or wrongly has long been the butt of many a joke, and often lumped in with second hand car salesmen. Anybody who believes that they are respected professionals, to be trusted unquestioningly, (especially when encountered in another country, operating from the back of their car with a mobile phone) must surely have spent most of their lives living under a stone? I doubt if there's a case for deception and dishonesty. Are we really to believe that this poor, unsuspecting couple were fooled by the smooth patter of the agent when she told them that the bar would make them loads of money while they got a suntan? Well, apparently, "YES IT IS A CRIME AND SHOULD BE PUNISHED AS SUCH" because a complete lack of common sense or willingness to take responsibilty for your own mistakes must always be somebody else's fault.

"Who said that running a bar was ever easy?" Well, probably the "criminal" agent. I certainly know (believe me, I know) running a bar isn't neccesarily easy, but with your experience, HybridAnglo, I can only assume you didn't see the bar in question, as I'm sure even you would agree the only skills needed were patience by the bucket-load and a willingness to put in intolerably long hours, a willingness to be totally humiliated and of course, the obligatory skin as thick as an elephant's. Even your "typical average punter" can figure out these are prerequesites for being on the "wrong" side of the bar. Oh, and the acceptance that you've just poured your life savings into a duff business. Yes, I reckon a monkey could be trained to do all that. 

"If you make your living by any form of deception, or hiding the truth, surely you are guilty of fraud?????" The only ones deceiving or hiding the truth were the couple who bought the place. So they're guilty of defrauding themselves.

Once again I reiterate, I am in no way condoning the behaviour of corrupt and criminal lawyers, notaries, politicians, property developers and their associates, all of whom make me as sick as the next guy. But that is not what I was referring to earlier, and in the context of the Rusty Nail, I don't understand why anyone would take my comments as a "constant suggestion that innocent people who have employed expensive experienced "professionals" to expressly protect their interests in a transaction that they themselves are not familiar with........are then accused of not doing their homework or are remiss in any way at all when they are conned by those same "professionals" Different set of circumstances entirely.

By the way, I knew Rick! He and his pretty young wife bought a bar (with no established clientele) in Cala D'Or. They renamed it Rick's Bar. Within six months, his wife had ran off with a hunky Spanish waiter, he was addicted to cocaine, and ended up driving his car into the marina one night. Naturally, he returned to the UK battered, bruised and penniless. The agent who sold him the bar (and therefore, by default, apparently, responsible for all his troubles) is still in business. Ho hum.

Roberto

I don't think many would doubt that some of the worst sharks working in Spain are from the UK.  When people refer to Spain 'getting its house in order'  it's often aimed the lack of regulation that encourages liars and fraudsters to prosper, because the authorities often wont take action against them, even when it's completely obvious they are con-men.  Worse still, the justice system encourages the con-men  further by again not serving swift and harsh jusice on those who are so obviously out to cheat decent people who at some stage have had to trust someone.  We have to know that those in the wrong will be punished, (however high up in the system?) but because so often in Spain that's not the case, the property industry on the costa's is where it is today. Only recently on this forum, a Spanish lawyer stated that the banks in Spain will often go to court before paying out on their own bank guarantee!!!!  .......'getting the house in order?'  Basic common sense issues of right and wrong from those in trusted or respected positions would be a good start.  If not, can those lower down in the food chain be expected to do the right thing?

Hybridanglo definately one of the best and most entertaing posts i have read on this or any forum just brilliant !!!   

Pat & Ann

amcgrory - totally agree, it was brilliant.

Goodstich - totally agree, but I'll say it once again - we are talking about something completely different here.

Hi Hybridanglo,

Fantastic post you obviously know your stuff every situation you shared with us brought back memories.

Kathy

Dear All,

I am wary of being setup by the program, journalism in all it's forms rarely gives the full or true facts and assumptions are dangerous.

But when did it become acceptable to denigrate unfortunate trusting individuals for their trust?????

Why are simple honest hardworking people abused publicly for such trust????

Why are they considered to be foolish gamblers???

Is it a case here of "love they neighbour" but you are a right muggins if you trust him???

Were we not all taught not to take advantage of those less able than ourselves???

Can we not all dispense a little free education without prejudicing our professional livelihoods???

When did deception and dishonesty become an ordinary business tactic???

Is it not possible to have honesty and integrity in all professions and businesses???

Was there a common thread, did they not all use and pay for a lawyer to act for them???

Does a simple business transaction require an intensive study of SPAIN UNCUT before it is safe to use and employ the requisite agents and lawyers???

Lots must have found honest agents and even lawyers out there somewhere.

More compassion is called for, I think.

Regards

Norman

Hybridanglo,

Excellent post!

Mrs. TechNoApe has a son and he used to run a pub and I know he would totaly agree with you. However, I do think it is silly to purchase a bar as a business and not know how to pull a pint , leave alone change a barrel!!!

Bringing this thread back on topic, I did say that I would reserve my judgement until I'd seen both episodes, which I have, and I can say is... when has anyone ever said "I'm moving to paradise" in the same sentence that they mention Spain!!!!

Spain isn't a paradise and never has been, nor will it ever be! So how can they call the program "Paradise Lost" when it wasn't even found in the 1st place, as anyone looking for Paradise would be looking for an island in the middle of nowhere.

Wikipedia say this about Paradise:

"Paradise is an idealized place in which existence is positive, harmonious and timeless. It is conceptually a counter-image of the miseries of human civilization, and in paradise there is only peace, prosperity, and happiness. Paradise is a place of contentment, but it is not necessarily a land of luxury and idleness. It is often used in the same context as that of utopia."

This is my conception of Paradise as an image, and it doesn't look anything like Spain.

Dear All,

well why not use the concept here and stop denigrating the unfortunate victims, stop calling them names etc.

after all no one is calling Justin names for not using a lawyer and getting "shafted", except perhaps himself.

hopefully  myra cecilia is right and the villains' days are numbered.

a step nearer paradise, maybe???

Regards

Norman

As Normansands says:  "I am wary of being setup by the program, journalism in all it's forms rarely gives the full or true facts and assumptions are dangerous."   And perhaps it's time that the TV companies and journalists start to think before they publish.  I am all for freedom of the press; where would we be without the odd expose of duplicitious politicians, big business etc? 

But we have to recognise that many years of watching cheap to produce programmes, such as Place in the Sun and the ilk, encouraging us to buy abroad, made without any real research into what it means to invest all your capital in a place where the legal processes are entirely different to those we are comfortable with at home, must be a major factor in the vast number of Brit's who have sunk all their money into a 'black hole' and now can't get it out.  A few well informed programmes on the pitfalls back then would have  been more appropriate, but I guess that didn't then make good TV.  Now we have all done what the media seemed to guaranteee as the 'right thing', they turn around and call us idiots for believing them! 

At home, the plethora of TV property programmes (ie Homes Under the Hammer) has also led to a rush for 'easy money' as a property developer.  Now thousands have had their fingers burned and indeed many lost their own homes as they have disappeared under a mountain of debt.  Who knows how much TV is responsible for the current credit crunch both in the UK and the 'States, by encouraging people attempting to climb the ladder by taking on sub-prime mortgages?

Perhaps a class action against the BBC is on the cards?

Mike

 I watched the second episode but missed the first one,partly because i hate these sort of programmes as all they do is mostly revel in the fact of other peoples misery and sometimes stupidity.

My conclusions;

The people who purchased the "Rusty Nail" cafe in Benidorm, sheer stupidity springs to mind!!!

They had never run a bar,had any business acumen or even worked together before,they didnt know the market and went for something that had been on the market for 3 years spending all their hard earned savings on their new venture.

Maybe they did think Benidorm was "Paradise" but through lack of research,common sense or a shear desire to escape from their old lives ended up with a dead horse.

How can anyone blame an agent for this????.

I know La marina quite well, i don't particulary like it but a lot of people do, the people in the programme looked quite happy so good luck to them, where is the story there???

My only gripe with this is the fact that most people seem to have no interest in learning the language....most of the people i speak to from the UK list this as the biggest gripe they have with foreigners entering Britain, it doesn't take much effort to learn a few convesational phrases to get yourself by, it's just good manners.

Of course i feel for anyone who has lost property to land grab or rustic land issues, i think we all do,the problem is that it creates an illusion that all of spain is like this.

I feel these programmes are just recycling old news and not concentrating on the real stories, maybe they should focus on the people who are at the root of all the troubles and do some real investigative journalism.

So in essence, nothing new really..........same old same old..........

Sorry for derailing the thread. I didn't see the bar in the programme, I was too busy working in a different one. Ultimately, I'm looking at opening a bar of my own, but would never even think about doing so without some hands-on experience here in Spain. You can have all the experience of the British bar scene, but that does not even come close to preparing you for the Spanish experience. After 12 months of working here, I'm still picking up new things.

How anyone without any experience, in either country, expects to succeed is beyond me. As easy as it is to blame unscrupulous agents, the individuals involved in such cases must take the lion's share of responsibility themselves. It was their pipe-dream, after all. No-one put a gun to their head. Alas, reality can, and so often does, bite you in the behind.