ITV show on the Costa Del Sol

Dear All,

Whilst I readily admit to my simple viewpoint, how was the thread derailed???

Allowing some licence to the title perhaps, what on earth has a deserted desert island got to do with the thread???

Whose dream of paradise is it to be castaway on such a place???

Assumptions are once again flying thick and fast, not to mention the name calling.

I cannot see Justin, Techno and georgia collecting many euros in Techno's paradise, unless it is a hire boat.

Pure speculation, but I cannot help  wonder how kindly Georgia would have treated the "Rusty Nail" people had they knocked on her shop door??

Pity we cannot obtain the real facts.

Regards

Norman

Georgia sums up the ITV shows

....in a way it is a  bit of history as buyers today are savy and know what goes on or has gone on via internet and forums such as EOS

The future for life style buyers in Spain is now better than it has ever been

many of the ' illegals will be sorted'...some not and there are many problems due to  the recession which will have to be resolved not only in Spain but world wide

The Banks are still sorting out their own problems and in UK many investors, including former employees, have lost their savings.....2 years ago Bank shares were considered the best!!.....RBS etc ...a worse scenario than buying a property in Spain [ of course provided it has been built]

Everyone suffers in this recession!

It seems in Spain that the banks are supporting the builders when they can, but it is going to be late 2010 before EU economy starts to move again

But the majority of UK buyers are very happy...the silent majority.......last trip to Spain in the plane sat next to a guy who had bought off plan  early 2003 Costa Blanca  , completed 2004 [ yes paid some black money]  and loves it.....and everyone he knows loves it

OK he said , not as cheap as it was, but a great life for me and the wife retired .....50/50 UK /Spain...live 10 extra years getting away from UK winters!!!

A bit of Spanish .......but Expats worldwide often do not speak the local language...in UK we have expats who have lived here for 40 years who still do not speak english!!

Not good TV!!....... and not an agents sales marketing.............I suppose everyone who is there and has not had problems loves Spain for the ' life style'

Couple of points, Norman:

"Why are they considered to be foolish gamblers???" Because they were.

"When did deception and dishonesty become an ordinary business tactic???"  Never, but where's the evidence of anyone being deceptive or dishonest in the sale of the Rusty Nail? As HybridAnglo says: "individuals involved in such cases must take the lion's share of responsibility themselves. ... No-one put a gun to their head". As Georgia says, "sheer stupidity springs to mind!!!........How can anyone blame an agent for this????."  Well Georgia, if Norman ever walks into your place, I hope you take out extra insurance, because you're guilty of fraud by default. You are an AGENT 

"did they not all use and pay for a lawyer to act for them???"  Most likely, no, in this case........but of course, they weren't to know that that might have been a good idea - somebody else's fault.

"Does a simple business transaction require an intensive study of SPAIN UNCUT before it is safe to use and employ the requisite agents and lawyers???"  When was buying a business, in Spain or anywhere, a simple transaction? An intensive study of something (a book on common sense, for example?) would be advisable.

"stop denigrating the unfortunate victims, stop calling them names etc."  Sorry, don't recall calling any one names - just commenting on the content of a rather stupid TV show, like everyone else.

"Assumptions are once again flying thick and fast," Oh, how true!...............

"I cannot help  wonder how kindly Georgia would have treated the "Rusty Nail" people had they knocked on her shop door??"

rowlandsbb wrote

''Georgia sums up the ITV shows

....in a way it is a  bit of history as buyers today are savy and know what goes on or has gone on via internet and forums such as EOS''

.....if only that were true!   While I agree there is now no exuse for not seeing the dangers, many of the problems that have landed Spain in its property mess are still very much alive!!  For instance, having to take banks to court to get paid out on a guarantee, lack of strict regulation on dodgy agents/lawyers/developers etc. Court cases for fraud/deception stretching out years, justice slow and often just not carried out due to corruption.

This is at least all now well reported, so as long as you go in armed with this knowledge and don't expect similar regulation or justice we mostly take for granted in the UK, with regards to the property industry then people should be prepared and ready to experience the positive aspects that many on here enjoy. 

As for buying a business, well it's a gamble where ever. You  can't blame anyone for your own mistakes or bad luck or expect a bail out. It's your gamble!

Dear All,

when all the "commercials" have finished savaging the unfortunate dreamers, for whatever paradise they were dreaming of......

Is the point really that it is the market and the Rusty Nail itself that is redundant and perhaps all the other bars they viewed.

Is Spain also dead as a destination, killed by the euro, Justin says it is no longer cheap and he now has to sell his free information to pay his extra staff.

As an unfortunate past dreamer myself, my now limited means only allowed a weeks holiday this year, which I spent in Cyprus, very enjoyable, but not cheap.

Others from here have also gone to Cyprus but more to Turkey, have come back extremely satisfied with stories of five course meals for two at £9, all day sea trips with unlimited food and drink at £20 a head.

As to agents deliberately withholding information from the buyer just because they are paid by the seller for the transaction, that may not be criminal fraud but ethically it stinks. Silence is perhaps one thing but it is difficult to believe that a business changed hands without any reference to takings or accounts passing between the parties including the agent.

Sorry dirty hands are dirty hands even if a prosecution may fail.

Regards

Norman

 Hi Norma,

In reply to your question, i have sold bars in the past and probably hopefully will continue to do so.

Selling businesses is a completely different ball game to selling homes.

In a property sale my due dilligence is to protect the buyer from any illegalities regarding the property, in saying that i do not check with them that they have ever owned property before and are fully conversant with the use of a cooker or toilet sysytern.....if they put burgers down the toilet or toilet duck in the oven then i am sorry but that just boils down to inexperience and naivety.

In a sale of a business, especially a bar, i always ask the clients if they have thought it through as i consider bar work to be one of the hardest ways to earn a living in Spain, we have a bar next door to our office and they often work 16 hours a day 7 days a week.

If they say yes and its their dream then i will show them numerous bars.........if they do  not know one end of a pina colada from the other then i am sorry but they should have thought it through a little harder.

At the end of the day the programme highlighted the fact that stupidity still thrives when it comes to people thinking that a change of career into something thay have no idea about will bring them prosperity and happiness while they sit at their bar watching the sun set over the pork scratchings!!.....

If i go to a cycle shop and tell the guy that my six year old daughter would like a new bike and she then proceeds to fall off and injure herself because she cannot ride it properly, do i go back to the shop to berate the owner or should i have made sure she knew what she was doing before she climbed aboard.

It is far easier to blame than admit fault.

I have to agree with Georgia and Roberto below.

A few years ago  I was selling a highly profitable printing business for the owners. I myself worked for a printing company many years ago and knew the amount of experienced required to own and run such an enterprise.

I had listed the business at a sensible price and had enquiries that ran into double figures. Yet, not one of the would-be owners had ever been near a printing business. They were happy to spend €80,000 of their savings to buy the business without knowing how to work the many machines required to produce quality print.

The original owners were not going to be around to teach the new ones, so ideally the new owners needed to be printers or at least capeable of design work.

Eventually, I had to bite the bullet and sell the business to one of the clients, as by now, time was ticking away and the orignal owners were questioning why I was not progressing any of the offers. 

Despite all the advice and warnings the new owners eventually took over and inevitably failed before the end of the year.

The husband and wife team were in my office a dozen times a week asking but often demanding me to produce graphics work for them, they borrowed, almost forceably, one of my best salesmen (who had been in printing) - without paying him, they used him for hours on end and never thanked him for is free help or offered me anything as I was stil paying his wages.

When the business went to the wall, I and my salesman decided that only half of the problem was their lack of experience, the other half was their lack of gratitude and humility. They were always rude and blunt, the exisiting customers of the business would have hung on in there with the new owners if they had shown any kind of friendlyness, but they never did.

Now to the Rusty Nail! - If I was walking past that bar and saw him sitting in the front with his earring, tatoos and scruffy clothes, I would have walked straight by.

Perhaps they weren't experienced in running a bar, but as Roberto says, a tiny place like that is not difficult to run. However it wasn't their lack of experience, it was their attitude and general scruffyness and appearance that would have ensured potential customers just walked on by.

Gillespie

I think most would agree with that post where ever you are going in to business. (though not about it being easy to run, that's not true) I also think most would like to see a programme highlighting those who have done everthing in their power to protect their money, and just been cheated by liars in a position of trust. Banks, lawyers, agents, deveopers, council officials etc.  

I wish programmes (and some selfish ar*eholes on here)  could concentrate more on how to bring about change to stop the rot that has lead to where we are today with regards to overbuilds , corruption, court cases stretching out years due to so much corruption. etc etc....,  rather than concentrating on those who have taken reckless gambles or gone in to it all blind. Yes some have made mistakes, but they are not bad people, not evil, not con-men, so why try and make them out to be anything like as guilty as cheats and liars? 

 Untill certain issues are sorted then more decent people will just be conned. Blaming the recession for the current problems really is avoiding the cause and avoiding the fact there are so many cases going through court that many are waiting not months, but years for justice in black and white cases of fraud/deception. This often means the victims get nothing due to those in the wrong going bust or simply starting again under another name. .......More lies and deception!! 

We need a prog'  about the  issues that have caused so much damage, and with teeth!!, not  one highlighting those who have made errors. We know about that.

Norman,

These are my personal thoughts and feelings and do not represent those of Eye on Spain and/or any member of  Eye on Spain staff.

When you said "Justin says it is no longer cheap and he now has to sell his free information to pay his extra staff."

I think that comment is not only harsh but totally unfounded and not even based on any truth!

If you took time to see what Spain Uncut is all about, then I think you will find it is a very good product and it is for those people, who unlike you, still have an interest in Spain and is quite simply aimed at helping out those who could make the same mistakes that so many have made before.

It is also aimed at people who could still be making mistakes now as we speak!

It  doesn't matter if you haven't purchased property here yet and are thinking of, or you have moved here and things aren't going well, or maybe you want to set up your own business, perhaps you need help with Schools or obtaining legal documents.

Spain Uncut is packed full of priceless information... as it is all firsthand experience of not only Justin and Susan, but many, many others who also have invaluable firsthand experience and insight in just about every aspect on moving to and living in Spain.

It quite literally is what everyone really needs to know... and you certainly wouldn't be able to get all that info for free no matter how much research you did!

So, please, please, please do not post wild allegations without making sure you have all the facts!

Doubt what I'm saying, then pay a visit to the landing page, scroll down and look at what Spain Uncut is all about and what each episode covers... and then maybe buy a copy, watch every episode, and then stop whinging at all of us who still like Spain!

You have no idea the time and effort, the amount of man power, the travelling around, interviewing trusted experts in their respected field to get the real story! All this and more has gone into making Spain Uncut, and all you can do is have a go... stick and stones Norman, sticks and stones!

Again,  these are my personal thoughts and feelings and do not represent those of Eye on Spain and/or any member of  Eye on Spain staff.

EDIT

I started this thread to tell everyone about this ITV show called 'Paradise Lost' in order  that we might learn something new, and also to get people's opinions on it!

I didn't start it so people could slag each other off and anymore of it and I will lock this thread!

Goodstich44,

I suppose the perception of difficulty involved in running a business is very much related to the general ability and intelligence of the owners concerned.

There are a great many people out there who can make a success of almost any business, essentially because they have the right attitude, confidence and grasp of basic finance and marketing.

There are also many who don't have these abilities, yet they will often find out later to their cost!

The same logic can be applied to those who bought property and found they had made a mistake. Those who speculated and bought at the end of the boom were obviously without the abilities described above. I have know many good property investors over the years, they were getting out as the amature speculators were coming in.

Many people bought property as an alternative pension, some bought as BTL hoping to not only make a rental income but also to benefit from rising equity in their property, these people did not grasp the obvious falling trend evident from the end of 2004 onwards. All they saw was the still rising prices. The professional investor knows that when the sales curve flat lines then their opportunity to sell on at a profit has been reached, as that flat line goes into descent yet prices continue to increase, then it's time to impliment your exit strategy.

Non of the wannabe speculators that came into the market from 2005 onwards could possibly have had any grasp of basic investing, if they had, then they would have been getting out not in.

Many who lost money would not know what an exit strategy was! All they saw was rising prices, they never analised the market enought to realise those rising prices were unsustainable, only the professionals, armed with good research could see that.

As for illegal build and apportioning the blame on agents, I fail to see how that can be!!

Agents don't apply for planning permissions, the developers do. Agents don't issue habitation certificates, the town halls do! Agents don't order reviews of already approved planning permits, the town halls and provincial governments do!

What agents do do is market property, deal with those enquiries and bring the buyer to the table with the promotors of those properties.

What buyers do is employ a lawyer to represent them and their interests throughout the process. If a lawyer fails to explain the consequences properly to their client, then it is not the agents fault. The agent can reccommend a lawyer to the buyer, but it is the buyers decision as to who he appoints and not the responsibility of the agent.

I fail to see what good any TV programme can do to alter the outcome of people who lose money in property buying in Spain. It's not possible to teach people common sense in 2 episodes. Our state schools spend 11 years trying to educate the masses but they still produce people who will cross the road to slip on a bannana skin.

I also fail to see why people expect the Spanish government to return the 100's of millions of pounds lost by foreign buyers!

Much of this money has been sequestrated by the Spanish banks as the builders concerned go bust. So Sr Zapatero is not, in the midst of a Spanish banking crisis, going to make matters worse by returning it to the individual persons who have lost it. It is doing the Bank of Spain more good than returning it to the original owners. I don't condone it, but I do understand why they are doing it, they are simply looking after themselves and their own.

I do feel very sorry for those people who have bought property for their own use and then find they have been the victims of town hall fraud, negligence by their lawyers etc. as in the case of the Priors and the people mentioned in the programme in Cantoria.

Gillespie

I think you know full well that many inteligent people have been cheated by liars in positions of trust. As I said, cases stretch out years. We were conned 7 years ago and the company are now being investigated by a fraud squad. Why do you think the courts in Spain are so snowed under with cases of  corruption and fraud and take years to serve justice, if in fact it happens at all?? The mess Spain's costa's are in, is in my opinion all very much part of this, and a programme highlighting this would be more realisic than pretending those wronged were mostly naive or stupid.  Before Spain can hope to recover its property industry it must accept the reasons for the damage. Certain agents, lawyers, developers, judges and town planners are most responsible for the current mess. They have got away with so much wrong doing for so long because it's been the accepted way, and they should be the ones forced to implement very overdue change. The alternative???.... Spain carrying on sticking it's head in the sand with little improvement apart from market forces whenever that might be?

Gillespie:

I think that if you look back in old brochures from companies such as Parador & Atlas (& many others) you will find that they stated that all their properties are legal & all their properties come with a bank guarantee. I remember visiting many property exhibitions in the Uk around 2003-2005 where the companies made a big thing about how they investigated the builders to make sure that everything was OK, as their ONLY concern was to protect the buyer!!!!

The agent does have a responsibility to ensure that the property being sold is legal, if not, the agent is party to a crime & surely no professional agent would want to do something like that?

With regard to lawyers, yes, the agent/developer can only suggest, but a 'strong' suggestion from someone  the buyer has come to trust carries alot of weight. A large number of buyers found themselves in this situation. Many iof these buyers had no experience of buying & selling property other than once or maybe twice in the UK. It is too easy to say now that they shouldn't be buying overseas. They still had a right not to be ripped off! It shouldn't matter that is was on the agent/developer's suggestion, the lawyer should still have done their job, which many (most) didn't.

With regard to the Spanish government, they do have the ultimate responsibilty, because they passed the laws which are not being enforced & allowing the crooks (many of them British) to carry on trading.

You mention the banks keeping vast sums of buyers money. The whole point of the bank guarantee system is to protect the buyer, by keeping their deposits in a ring fenced account, if the developer goes bust the money is returned to the buyer. It is not there to pay the bank!

There are many stupid buyers, but being stupid isn't a crime (YET), & buyers should have the right to be treated in an honest way, & not be ripped off. If they are, there should be a legal system which works in their favour, & in Spain that doesn't happen. Until it does Spain is going to continue having a major problem.

We had an issue with Masa (years ago) &, on return to the UK after our inspection trip, we complained to FOPDAC http://www.fopdac.com/  as Masa were & still are members. On Masa's site it says MASA’s membership of FOPDAC, the Federation of Overseas Property Developers, Agents and Consultants, is further proof that we can be trusted to behave in an ethical way when we sell our properties in Spain.

FOPDAC did nothing for us.  Thankfully, we didn't purchase any property through Masa.

(Colin, don't give More a please).

rob6578

very well said indeed.

This is the ugly truth, but some won't accept it  because they are to damned selfish or don't feel it's in their interest.  Some others  take it as an attack on Spain when in reality if the problems were accepted and dealt with everyone worth their salt would benifit!!

Indeed, very well said Rob.

goodstitch,

Very true!

That's why I always comment in a negative way on programs such as Paradise Lost, as I don't think they are an attack on Spain, I just think they could have spent the time better by interviewing those of us on here that know what the 'real' problems are and how to avoid them!

And also maybe highlight what needs doing and shame the Spanish Goverenment into doing more about it! Maybe an interview with Sir Trev and someone from the Junta?

Instead, they just did as all the other programs did, and show what problems people get into without giving any real help!

Having said that, it was done in a more interesting and theatrical way and was the narrator the same as the chap that did the Apprentice?

Colin, Sir Trev wouldn't do much better in putting out "the real facts" anymore than the program makers of Paradise Lost or the many other similar programs that have been aired.  By the time they have run the interviews past their lawyers, the program becomes sterile. They are not interested in the ugly truths.

Dear All,

who is rob6578 I wonder, not just excellent, superb.

it is just a case of buyer beware and trust no one, not even your lawyer who is acting for you at huge cost, certainly not the developer whose promises are never kept, nor the agent who is not really an agent, just a salesman out to earn a good living for himself,

the problem is that both the lawyer and agent well know that the developer does not keep his promises and the sales brochures that pass through the agent's hands are just a silly dream.

that being the case, does anyone take responsibility, of course, the poor old buyer who did not beware enough.

what a wonderful system and what superb professionalism and integrity.

as to techno's personal comments, was he not the chap who bought two properties, one to live in and one as an investment?

if I recall he managed it all very well as he reported, perhaps he would explain what exactly he would have done differently had he seen the DVDs of Spain Uncut?

why does he assume and accuse me of losing interest in Spain just because some crooks have robbed me of a large part of my life's savings??? certainly not true, but I wont get indignant and threaten any action to withdraw his privileges.

in fact I was interested to see Spain Uncut until I saw the price, I am afraid the old pension wont stretch to it.

I will have to wait until it gets on eBay.

as to Justin I was only repeating his comments and obvious expansion, but it is clear that EOS is becoming ever more commercial.

personally it seems to me, just from his comments, that goodstitch may be losing heart a little, a corrupt system may well grind you down in the end, perhaps EOS or the TV should highlight his case.

Regards

Norman

The Round Town News have written a story about the couple who bought The Rusty Nail.

Read latest about Joe and Jane Evans here

Norman,

"as to techno's personal comments, was he not the chap who bought two properties, one to live in and one as an investment?"

Yes! And I did so very successfully I might add. Thanks to the many people who post on Eye on Spain.

"if I recall he managed it all very well as he reported, perhaps he would explain what exactly he would have done differently had he seen the DVDs of Spain Uncut?"

I was referring to the actual move to Spain and not the purchase of property, as I got the later 100% correct, however the move to Spain, and the connotations of such, sorting out Healthcare, severing the ties, etc, etc, only about 80% correct. So it would have been a good investment.

"why does he assume and accuse me of losing interest in Spain just because some crooks have robbed me of a large part of my life's savings???"

Because that is what most, if not all, see in your postings! You always criticise but seldom offer advice, which you could do so well as you yourself have been through the worst Spain has to offer. Why not try to help others not do the same, as we are!!!!!On the odd occasion you do, but for the most you don't.

"but I wont get indignant and threaten any action to withdraw his privileges."

Who said anything about removing your privileges? I merely stated that the conduct of various individuals seemed a bit aggressive and as a Moderator of this forum I suggested that if some people didn't 'tone things down a bit' that I would do as mods of other forums do and 'lock the thread', which would mean nobody would be able to post any further replies!

We all want to share info and help each other out, however some people always like to stir things up, and that will no longer be allowed to happen, as people are leaving the forum because of the actions of a few rotten apples! In this I did not, and do not now, single you or anyone else out.

Maybe I am a bit heavy handed, but people need to know that we do have rules and also abusive and/or anti-social behaviour will not be tolerated.

Freedom of speech is one thing, being aggressive and/or anti-social is another.