ITV show on the Costa Del Sol

I merely stated that the conduct of various individuals seemed a bit aggressive and as a Moderator of this forum I suggested that if some people didn't 'tone things down a bit' that I would do as mods of other forums do and 'lock the thread', which would mean nobody would be able to post any further replies!

We all want to share info and help each other out, however some people always like to stir things up, and that will no longer be allowed to happen, as people are leaving the forum because of the actions of a few rotten apples! ...........people need to know that we do have rules and also abusive and/or anti-social behaviour will not be tolerated.

Freedom of speech is one thing, being aggressive and/or anti-social is another.

This stance is what makes EOS stand above some other forums. Some have very poor moderation and allow disruptive posters to destroy informative threads.  Well done team. 

TechNoApe wrote

''And also maybe highlight what needs doing and shame the Spanish Goverenment into doing more about it! Maybe an interview with Sir Trev and someone from the Junta?''

I really feel this is where the change must start. Corruption, lack of regulation and slow patchy justice seem so ingrained in the system that lobbying just seems to fall on deaf ears. Perhaps it does on the Government as well?, but sooner or later hopefully someone who can force change will listen and act? Spains property industry and all those cheated need never to have been in this mess but for integrity and common sense from the top.

Norman

yes I am losing heart, but not hope.....yet?.  7 years trying to get justice in a case so obviously corrupt that it should never have reached court but should have been sorted out by regulation speaks for itself. I feel confident we have a supurb lawyer doing what he can within the limits of what is clearly a crazy system resulting in the current situation.

Hi Technoape

Very well said, I do honestly feel sorry for any person who may have lost money whilst buying in Spain, but at the end of the day, take caution and never trust, builders, agents, solictors etc. The problem with this thread and TV shows only highlight negative thoughts. I myself am happy with with the purchase of my property in Spain and I believe like thousnds more like wise, and that equates to a small percentage being unhappy! 

But like any industry and this is world wide their will be always dodgy rotten apples.

Can please have some positive comments! 

roddy1

I am really pleased that you are happy with your situation, but please don't fall in to the trap of thinking the problem is only concern to a small minority, or that many wronged didn't take caution. That just isn't the case for many, though of course it is for some, I think we all accept that fact. The system stinks and has led to so much overbuild and corruption/regulation problems that in turn filter down to those cheated and is the main cause of the current mess in Spain. Those of us you hear about really are the minority of those wronged in some way. Cases of wrong doing are so frequent the courts are snowed under with cases.

Yes of course thousands are happy, but are you content knowing the problems many others face and in fact the Costa's face with thousands of properties half finished, not wanted or with dreadful build quality?  Perhaps if everyone happy or not would stand up and complain about the current situation then change might be hurried along a bit.  The '' 'i'm alright jack''  or ''lets see more positive comments'' attitude isn't going to help change the problems that have caused so much damage and hardship, and plays straight in the hands of those who prefer to resist change because the they have profited very nicely thankyou from the system that has led to where we are now!

Dear All,

simple as I may be, I really do not understand why so many people on an information forum, happy people, success story people, satisfied or even "found their dream people", need to have that happiness continually reinforced with positive only stories. Surely happiness, however obtained, is an unarguable state that cannot be disturbed especially by mere words and TV shows.

it seems to me to be paranoia, it leads directly to negative things like, flooding, landslip, subsidence threads and posts to be deleted in a very heavy-handed way, not in my view what the forum is for.

despite all the castigation received on this thread it seems that the Rusty Nail people are surviving to some extent, perhaps it is the "Wally effect", perhaps the "Brits" are pitching in and helping out, why cannot we hope so and wish them well instead of calling them names???

perhaps even a disaster helped and even saved by the show and the publicity, perhaps even some EOS members are helping instead of doing the other thing???

Justin did not use a lawyer and got "shafted", I used an expensive lawyer  who was supposed to be independent and an agent, who was supposed to be established and respectable, but was still  "shafted".

EOS would have been no use to me whatsoever, or anyone else,  if the forum only posted positive stuff, for me had I seen it, the negative would have indeed been positive.

I enjoy the positive stories of success in Spain and read them avidly, wishing to see more of them. They can be extremely informative especially when they include the warnings and hiccups, keep it coming, post your own.

There is even special threads for this sort of thing - go to it.

I applaud techno's success and think he has proved my point but would question his 80% success, given the speed at which he has obtained lucrative euro employment I think that also should be nearer the 100, if not quite.

I hope this is neither aggressive, destructive or critical of anyone, however sensitive they may be and if anyone needs any technical help feel free.

Regards

Norman

Hi Normansands

Like said  I am extremely sorry about your situation like wise of anybody else in similiar predicaments. My feeling is that your negative thoughts are only to turn people away from buying in Spain, in a earlier post you was promoting Cyprus I feel that which ever country you are buying in their will always sharks out their!

What my suggestion is that people name and shame bad apples, praise the good uns!  

"There is even special threads for this sort of thing - go to it". Well said, Norman! And this thread used to be about a show on ITV. Just because a few of us recognise clearly that the Rusty Nail couple brought their problems upon themselves and don't see why anybody else should be accused of some sort of criminal behaviour, does not mean that there was any "name calling", or that we're not entitled to express that opinion about a pretty insignificant and unimportant section of a pretty below average bit of tabloid tv.

I too am delighted that they seem to be finding their feet a bit now. Good luck to them.

Now, slightly off topic but still about tv shows, did anyone see last night on BBC4 Jo Brand in Getting On? Fantastic stuff, the best comedy satire since The Office (just my opinion, folks!) I do hope Bobaol saw it, in particular. The world we live in - Spain, UK, all the same.

Hello Roddy,

relating this year's experience of a first visit to Cyprus is for information input to an information forum, no more no less but I am almost sure the sun is similar in both places.

why not provide your own happy experiences

naming and shaming is a great idea but EOS would have a problem with that I think.

certainly I may have been put off had I known in advance how bad things are, just ask goodstitch.

Thanks

Regards

Norman

Hi Roberto, yes, I watched it. I'd seen a trailer for it & had actually thought it was a documentary with Jo Brand, having been a psychiatric nurse, going back into that situation. Having read about it I saw it was a comedy though filmed in docu mode. Jo Brand's a favourite of mine & it was brilliant, wasn't it ? The 'discussions' about that stool were so funny.

Anyone who missed it can (hopefully) catch it on i player click here

'Nurse Kim Wilde (Jo Brand), the lowest form of life on the ward after the lino' ... Jo Brand in Getting On. Photograph: BBC/Vera Productions

The BBC has launched its Grey Expectations season, dedicated, as they mistily phrase it, to "the twilight years". Eighty-seven-year-old Liz Smith goes on a cruise. George Melly and John Mortimer are resurrected. And, keeping the theme alive, if that is the word, Susie Dent explains in Radio Times the meaning of the phrase "to kick the bucket". (Do not read this if you are fond of pigs.) Comfort yourself with the thought that you have the last laugh. You don't have to pay a TV licence.

The season started with Getting On (BBC4), a comedy set in a geriatric ward, which happily proved excellent. It is shot in documentary style by Peter Capaldi. All colour is leached out of the ward except a haze of institutional blue. Voices, almost ad libbing, overlap.

The patients seem set, with some spirit, on dying despite the apathetic efforts of the staff. These are Nurse Kim Wilde (Jo Brand), the lowest form of life on the ward after the lino, Sister Flixter (Joanna Scanlan), drowning in paperwork, and Dr Pippa Moore (Vicki Pepperdine), a masterpiece of tinny insincerity. Dr Moore's real passion in life is her collection of faeces ("There is a faecal deposit on that chair." "I'm on top of that"). These three wrote the script ensuring a fair supply of jokes per person. Matron is a martinet of the old school, except he is a man. And horse sense is in inverse ratio to seniority.

The first patient out of the trap is Lily, who dies on her 87th birthday as Sister Flixter is holding her hand and chuckling over her mobile. She leaves behind a large coffee cake baked by her sister, Connie. "Do you think she really wants to have her dead sister's cake back?" asks Nurse Wilde, slavering slightly. "Oh, I'm sure she does. She'll enjoy that with a cup of tea later," says Sister Flixter, fairly firmly. Connie, however, proves elusive, and they are polishing off the cake themselves when a pale, defeated face appears in the glass of the door. A Connie if ever I saw one. Sister Flixter breaks the sad news through a hail of cake crumbs, and Nurse Wilde offers a glass of water, hiding her own slice of cake behind the door jamb. It is what Lily would have wanted. Probably.

It turns out that the old Asian lady, chattering incessantly, is saying, "I want to die. Please kill me", and the nicely spoken lady with terminal MS is looking forward to a holiday in Zurich. "Oh, that's a lovely city. You'll enjoy yourself there," said Dr Moore with shining insincerity – before doing a double take and making a panic-stricken call to Dignitas.

Anyway, I digress, back to the topic, what was it ?

morerosado

sounds good fun. I love Jo Brands comedy..... and her politics for that matter!  If it's half as good as the office it will be worth watching for me.

normansands

well I think it's good that there is a '' happy'' thread.  The not so 'happy'  threads are the ones that can, and by now must have saved  a hell of a lot of grief though. For that I would like to say a huge WELL DONE to EOS and a couple of other good forums. Many cheated would no doubt be in a much better position now if they had been given honest facts (however ugly) rather than lies and bullsh*t from some of those in positions of trust. How I would love to see a 'name & shame' show on the Costa Del Sol.

rob6507 & Goodstich,

You seem, yet again to have missed the point regarding agent involvement in illegal building.

Firstly, the agents only offer what the developer provides in the way of project specifications. Usually the agents literature reflects the promotors literature and the agents also give out the promotors own literature.

Secondly, buyers should treat any literature given out by those with an interest in the product as purely promotional and therefore they should have this information verified before they purchase. If they cannot verify it, they can walk away, no one is forcing them to buy!

The same goes for brochures on new cars, televisions, fridges etc. etc. Does anyone really believe everything that is implied by these things.

You will also find that most brochures carry disclaimers, usually saying that the specification of such products can be altered at any time.

Even the developers purchase contracts carry the same kind of warning. It doesn't mean they intend to make changes, but if they have to then they are covered. But that still isn't the main reason. Many developers are affected by changes in town hall personell, reviews of existing planning permits, and if there is a Mayor with his finger in the pie then often all the building licences that were isssued during his time in office can be revoked. I fail to see that this can be the fault of the developer and even more so how the agent can be seen as responsible.

The agent who offers new build for sale knowing there are no licenses in place at the time has a problem. That problem being he will be wasting his advertising budget simply because any buyer who comes along will use a lawyer to check these things are in place. When it turns out they are not, then they will walk away and the agent has lost a client he could have sold a legal property to.

If the clients lawyer fails to warn the client about the lack of licences then it is surely the lawyers fault and not the agents. Agents do and always will offer property for sale before the licences are in place, it isn't illegal if those licences have been applied for and are in the process of being issued, usually the properties concerned are sold considerably cheaper as a pre-plan purchase. Lawywers should always ensure the clients know the consequences of buying such a property, highlighting that even though the licences are applied for, there could be a change of mind or political party at the town hall and that could be the end of the project.

With regards to getting their money back, well technically they are and should be entitled to it, however in practice it doesn't really happen that way.

This is not just perculiar to Spain, have you ever tried getting charges back from your UK bank, or getting your money back on your new car if it keeps breaking down?

Even before forums like this, and before TV programmes highlighted Spains corrupt legal and justice system, we were all well aware of the pitfalls of buying property in another country. Newspapers often carried stories about property scandals in France and Spain.

The Spanish system will not be changing anytime soon, they are a different breed, they have different standards and they have the benefit of growing up with this regime, therefore they operate within it with caution. I cannot understand why foreign buyers expect it to change for them.

Having said that, the vast majority of UK property buyers find a good agent and a good lawyer and get the property they wanted without difficuly, I think that is testament to the huge amount of good professional agents out there and highlights the quality of the services they provide.

As for those who fall foul of the system, who knows what their circumstances were in the first place, some, a tiny few, are innocent victims, many of the others may well have been negligent, careless and even just plain silly. During the boom, I could not believe how many of the buyers were on the run from the UK tax man, their ex partners or their credit card companies, they were often in a hurry!

I therefore cannot be fully sypathetic with all those who have lost out, simply because I don't know their full circumstances.

Hi Gillespie,  

I liked 'I could not believe how many of the buyers were on the run from the UK tax man, their ex partners or their credit card companies'. Has anything changed ?

Ok guys 'n gals!

I know there are a lot of different views to be expressed, but please, please try and keep it on topic.

 Great graphic, Techno

Gillespie

once again I feel you are refusing to accept reality. If you want to carry on playing the game of pretending victims are mostly to blame then there's little point in myself or rob6507 and others pointing out the facts and why the need for change. Most of your last post doesn't reflect the truth as experienced first hand by myself during the last seven years.

TechNoApe

apologies for going off topic.  My main grumble about the show is much like yours. It just doesn't address the most serious points of why Spain and many buyers are in their current situation.

Gillespie:

I assure you I haven't missed the point about agent involvement in illegal builds.

For a purchase in the UK, a buyer can rely on the information in the developers brochure & the agents own literature because if it is wrong there is an established WORKING legal system that will enable the buyer to obtain redress.

In the same way if the new car that has just been bought goes wrong or indeed any product fails there is a well tested system in place that the consumer can go through.

If the lawyer makes a mistake or is involved in any fraud the Law Society compensation scheme WILL make redress & that lawyer will be struck off!

The Estate Agent is liable under various acts such as The Estate Agents Act 1979.

In Spain, NONE of this protection exists!

Even where there are laws protecting the consumer they are not enforced.

With regard to illegal builds & no licenses, the developer is doing something illegal by trying to sell a development before all the licenses are in place because no bank guarantee can be supplied UNTIL all the licenses are in place. It has been the law in Spain since 1968 that buyers are given a bank guarantee for their deposits.

The agent, most of whom are UK based, such as Parador, Atlas, Masa, Medsea etc, can happily say what they like in brochures, because they will receive their commission once the client has paid between 10% - 25% of the purchase price. Once they have their money they aren't bothered, because they claim they only acted as an introducer & it is the developer who is at fault.

As someone who escaped at the last moment from the Fiasco at Almamzora Country Club through Parador I do have an interest in this subject. The lawyer suggested by Parador who I didn't use (THANK GOD) was still e-mailing me 9 months after I had decided not to proceed telling me all is well & the build is progressing! All that time my lawyer in the UK was telling don't touch it. There are some 1500 buyers from the UK who didn't get the advice I received. Were they ALL stupid? I don't think so, they had lawyers in Spain, most of whom didn't even ask for the BG. Why not?

I have bought in Spain, & am very happy with I've got. I am a satisfied buyer with Polaris World at La Torre. Yes, my place is worth less than I paid for it, OK, it happens. I didn't buy as a short term investment, I bought as a holiday getaway & I like it. I don't have a mortgage & I can afford it. I have no problems with PW, I used a UK based lawyer for several reasons, lanmguage mainly, but also if it went wrong I would be protected by the Law Society in the UK.

In Spain, too many of the lawyers suggested by the agent/developer are in the pocket of the developer or are just useless & there is no system that compares to the UK in place.

People make mistakes, sometimes fraud is involved, & in a properly regulated system the consumer is protected, even against his own stupidity, in Spain, this doesn't happen.

For a buyer in Spain, who is only experienced in buying in the UK, relying on the great company that has just taken them over to Spain, wined & dined them in a nice hotel, found the property that they fall in love with, when a nice local lawyer is suggested, they go with it, why shouldn't they? Any problems, they will report him to the Law Society, just like the UK. Well, they have found out the hard way, it doesn't work like that in Spain.

As I said in my earlier post, stupidity isn't a crime (although I'm sure this government is working on it!), & any buyer has the right to assume that the professional lawyer who he has employed & is paying is in fact, working for him. In Spain, that isn't always the case, & there is NO redress! That is the problem.

I am so tired of people saying Spain is different, the Spanish are a different breed, etc, etc, etc!

Well, I do expect a different standard of behavior, & why not? It is MY money, & the money of people like me that has paid for the infrastructure that the Spanish now enjoy, the schools, roads, hospitals, the jobs!

If the Spanish want their economy to recover, they will have to change & actually enforce their own kaws, some of which have been in place for 40 years. If they don't change, their economy will remain in the sewer for years to come.

Yoo mention at the end of your post a few, a tiny few are innocent victims. Well i disagree. Look at Trampolin Hills, look on this forum, speak to the people who have received the documents, whose told them it was legal, who paid, in some cases the whole purchase price. Speak to Andrew Wilford, who visited the site just before he made his final 25% payment, to discover a british family in his house! They had just bought it, & it gets better, the developer has taken a mortgage out on it. So a villa, being sold for £200,000, the developer has had, £150,000 from the 1st buyer, £200,000 from the 2nd buyer & £250,000 by way of a mortgage. There are 2900 British buyers at Tramplolin Hills who have as much chance of getting their property or their money back as I do in flying to the moon tomorrow. 1500 buyers at ACC. Well, you may think this a 'few', I don't. There many other cases involving thousands of British nuyers on the Costa Blance & the Costa del Sol.

There are many, many people who have bought in Spain & are very happy, I'm one of them. I love Spain, I have coming to Spain for 45 years (starting as a child) & it's great, but that doesn't stop me seeing the problems. Yes, those who are happy should say so, but they should also understand that there many thousands who have not had the same happy experience & closing their eyes to a problem won't make it go away.,

rob6578

once again a fantastic and well balanced post explaining the good and bad far better than I can. I couldn't agree more and through experience know what you saying is not purely opinion. It is fact, it is the truth, but only those with open eyes will see it.

Good luck with your place at La Torre, and I wish you much happiness with it. That's all most of us wanted and tried so hard to achieve.

"the consumer is protected, even against his own stupidity"

I'd love to live in that particular Paradise! Just think, you can be dumber than dumb, and it's always someone else's fault and you'll never lose. I bet this guy wishes he'd bought property in this mythical place, too.

Joking (teasing - please don't take it too personally) aside, without really knowing much about consumer protection laws and their enforcement in either country, I believe there is a lot of truth in what the likes of Rob & Goodstich say and I am (contrary to popular belief) genuinely sympathetic to their situations. I also think there's some truth in what (who? Gillespie? Georgia? Sorry, don't remember) said, in that the Spanish know their "system" and accept it for what it is and operate within it's confines etc. Perhaps if thousands upon thousands of Spaniards had bought buy-to-let flats in Manchester, Leeds, Hull etc. etc. over the last few years, there'd be a significant minority of disillusioned, dissatisfied punters there too, struggling to find justice.

To put things in perspective, buying property (or any asset for that matter) in a foreign country, not just Spain,  where one is unfamiliar with the processes involved, and in particular where linguistic and cultural barriers exist, is a hazardous business. Hopefully through forums such as this, and yes, even silly ill-researched tv shows that generate discussions such as this, more people will be made aware of the potential dangers, and thereby be better prepared to avoid getting caught out.

(don't lock the thread, Techno!)

Dear rob6578 and All,

fantastic, super an absolute grasp of the situation, if only you had been producing the TV show, but that post should be in Spain Uncut., It should also be publicised as widely as possible and be in the forefront of every property show involving Spanish property.

One tiny criticism, you were too kind to the lawyers, they are not just useless they are criminally corrupt.

I wonder if you could comment on goodstitch's problem on the law society time-barring claims here.

Once again great, I am a fan.

Regards

Norman

My goodness, go to work for a couple of days to deal with an outbreak of Swine Flu (anyone watching East Midlands news last night, by the way, that was me in the surgical mask pointing out the isolation wing at our surgery) and find the thread has veered off rather somewhat.  Some good points made and some silly ones as well.  As someone who got "burned" on my first buy in Spain (and yes, after doing it all correctly by going through the lawyers and agents etc etc) I can understand how some people feel let down by the system.  I have mentioned I was much more careful in my second purchase by choosing my own solicitor, getting a reputable developer and avoiding builders who sell from show houses or, even worse, trailers next to the building site.  My second buy went very smoothly and I can attribute this to lessons learnt the first time and the excellent advice obtained from websites like this where most people do go out of their way to help others, as I hope we all do.  Yes, inject a bit of humour now and again but the good advice tends to outweigh the silliness that sometimes creeps in.  Basically, the advice was don't trust anyone, don't believe anything you're told and check, check and check again. (PS extremely happy with my 2nd purchase).

Oh, didn't see the Jo Brand prog, by the way, as was busy telling parents whose kids had the sniffles that it was unlikely their little brat  lovely little kiddy probably wasn't going to start oinking or drop down dead in the next 10 minutes and that, yes, the doctor will phone them with advice when he gets through the other 200 calls he has on his list!  Will probably try and catch her on iplayer a bit later.

Did you know that, genetically, everyone in the world is 99.9% the same?  So why do we spend so much time arguing about the one tenth of a percent that makes us different to everyone else instead of rejoicing in the 99 and nine tenths that we all have in common?