ITV show on the Costa Del Sol

Rob, what a wonderful spokesperson you are for the (Tens of?) thousands of people affected by the corruption in Spain. Over the last six years I have read soooo many posts and I have to say your last post is the most articulate that I have ever seen and sums up the situation perfectly.

Gillespie,

Your post on the other hand is typical of the numerous posts written by an REA. Totally ignorant of facts.

Dear All.

two more excellent to the point posts, thank you both.

If I get some money back, I like goodstitch may be joining bobaol and having a second go.

Regards

Norman

Roberto:

In the UK the consumer is protected if he can show that he was lied to, or if fraud took place, or if he buys a product which isn't delivered, or if he buys a product which, on delivery, isn't what he agreed to buy.

With regard to the BTL in the UK, yes, alot of people have lost alot of money. Were they lied to? I don't know, but if they were there is a system in place to help them. In Spain, there isn't.

With regard to 'the guy' in your post, yes, he was stupid & greedy & he committed a crime. Was he lied to? Or did he just see the supposed profit?

You can never stop stupid people from doing stupid things, but in a properly regulated market, with real penalties for wrong-doers, the crooks & conmen don't last very long.

With Spanish property, this doesn't seem to be the case & there are still too many conmen taking advantage of naive British buyers, many of those crooks are British themselves. As long as they know there is no regulation in both the UK & Spain they will continue.

I don't believe that a buyer, in Spain or the Uk, should have to rely on luck as to whether they get the property they have agreed to buy. In Spain, it does seem that luck plays a major part.

With regard to my purchase with PW, I have lost money, it is not worth anything like I paid. That's the property market, it happens. I can live with it because I bought for the long term.  I don't let my property other than to my own family. If I was going to let commercially I would have a problem because there so many properties up for let. Were these buyers lied to? I don't know but they were given unrealistic expectations of what to expect.

I remember being told by Parador at a UK exhibition that I could let my planned purchase at ACC for 6 months minimum every year, & therefor why not buy 2 or even 3! The rentals would pay the mortgages so the one I use would be 'free'.

I suspect once the property market in the UK improves, there will exhibitions across the Country marketing property in Spain & other countries & the whole thing will start over again & more people will end up being conned because there is no regulation in the UK.

Might be sooner than you think; received this in my e-mail today:

• Low entry level from just €3,000
• Self-funding in less than 10 years
• 12% rental yield based on 75% occupancy
• Fully managed, luxury, freehold property asset
• Safe & secure investment in Europe's No.1 holiday destination

Roberto,

Yes, I received it and immediately deleted it but I bet some people answered it.

Where do you get 75% occupancy.

As for being free, why do they want 3000 euros then?

I was surprised to receive it on this forum.

Where do you get 75% occupancy?

Chase Farm, perhaps?

      Yes we received it got deleted right away.

I have heard of them before, something to do with timeshare I believe.  Probably Holiday Clubs.

Goodness know's what else, I hope people do not fall for it.

Pat   

I've been trying to find a post I put on EOS ages ago after the same thing happened to me on another forum. (The Quesada one)Many of the members complained on that forum & we were all chucked off.  (There was quite a discussion about it on another forum).

I complained to the site owner who reinstated me.

I commented about it happening on here & I distinctly recall Justin said that members email addresses should not have been passed to any 3rd party. (I'll try to find thread). So... in this case did you pass all our email addresses to a 3rd party, Justin ? if that was the case as someone did, obviously & it's annoyed many.

Just to correct rob6507,

Trampolin Hills was not a developer trying to rob people, though they are an irksome bunch, it was a corrupt PSOE town hall that passed the planning without allowing the PP councillors to attend that brought about 2 years of beurocracy and delays. By which time the developers had spent the clients money on litigation and  a few fast cars.

Most people had paid less than 25% for their properties, do you not think the builders would have preferred to collect the remaining 75% and complete the project with full profits.

Secondly, the agents only get a small part of their commissions at the deposit stage, again they would prefer the project completed to claim the bulk of the remaining commissions.

Almanzorra CC was a total no no from the beginning, being run by a well connected family who thought they could do to the Junta de Andalucia what they had done to Mazarron town hall with MCC. It was never going to work.

There are more than 1,000,000 British people owning property in Spain, with several thousand of them dissatisfied, if you consider many of those were not careful enough with their research, then the vast, vast majority of owners were able to find good agents and good service.

It's time to redress the balance and put into perspective the tiny amount of people who lost out, for whatever reasons. Those who are happy probably never look at the forums so we get the impression almost everyone was swindled when in reality it is proportionally  just a tiny few.

When you look at the facts, many of those few were speculators and/or somewhat careless in their research, then the overwhelming majority were satisfied.

As for the Spanish consumer protection and legal system, I happen to think it stinks, but it isn't going to change anytime soon.

As Bobaol says, "second time around he was more careful and everything went well", there has to be a lesson in there somewhere!

Gillespie:

I am not suggesting that Trampolin Hills or even Almanzora Country Club developers started with the intention of conning the buyers. However Trampolin Hills was crooked from the start, with bribes to the council,&  the mayor being paid commission to sell the development.

The end result, however, is that because these developments were illegal from the beginning & the developers knew that. They may, I'm sure, have thought that they would get planning permission by the time the development was completed. The problem is because the developments were stopped early, the money had already been spent. There was no money to pay for the bank guarantees for example.

In the case of Trampolin Hills, in a recent court case earlier this year, the developer admitted that €65,000,000 have been taken in stage payments from the buyers, only €15,000,000 of which is protected by bank guarantees issued by an authorised company in in Spain! €50,000,000 is covered by a Swiss company which is NOT authorised to issue bank guarantees in Spain. What has happened to that money?

Very early in both developments the companies concerned knew they had NO CHANCE of building. What has happened since? The money has gone. Even if these developmenmts get the green light (NO CHANCE), the buyers won't see their properties because there is no money.

Trampolin Hills for example, were offering 18% commission to UK agents, 50% payable once the client had paid 25%, balance on next 25% paid.

The problem on both developments (& these are just 2 of the thousands that have problems), is that buyers who did everything right: used a lawyer, got a bg, checked the paperwork, & they still got shafted!

When the lawyer is in collusion with the developer what chance does the buyer have? When the bank refuses to honour the BG, what can the buyer do? When the lawyer tells you he has the bg so don't worry, & you find out months later that he hasn't got it & he didn't chase it up, what do you do?

In a properly regulated market there is a system in place to help you.

In Spain, there isn't!

The compacency shown by Gillespie is saying that in effect, this Spain, it won't change & live with it, is why Spain is going to lose out BIG TIME!

I'm very happy with what I have, no complaints! But I was lucky, thousands were not, & that's the problem. I suspect that the majority of overseas buyers in Spain are happy, but the numbers I think, are smaller than Gillespie thinks, & the numbers unhappy are much larger than he thinks.

The press are not interested in people like me. My story won't be on ITV at 9pm. They want bad news because that is what gets viewers. Unless that is understood things won't change.

By which time the developers had spent the clients money on litigation and  a few fast cars

Oh well that's alright then! TH developers certainly couldn't be accused of robbing people!!!!

No wonder people have been ripped of in Spain if your points of view are anything to go by Gillespie.

Gillespie said

''As for the Spanish consumer protection and legal system, I happen to think it stinks, but it isn't going to change anytime soon.''

If little else, on this we agree. This is just what has encouraged  the low-life, the corruption and lack of regulation that has resulted in a huge (not tiny, that's just rubbish as you know!)  amount of people being cheated out of their money, despite doing nothing wrong. It's also part of the much bigger picture of why Spains property industry is such a mess and why it can take years to get a case heard in court. As for not changing soon, well it probably won't if we feel that the current situation is acceptable, and we bury our heads in the sand and pretend that the many victims of the above are a small number and bought this on themselves. 

If anyone reading this is new to the forum, then I urge you to read  the recent posts from rob6578.  They really are how it is, and should be a clearly marked health warning to anyone thinking of buying in Spain. You could then buy with a grasp on the reality.

"As for not changing soon, well it probably won't if we feel that the current situation is acceptable"

No one in their right mind feels it's accepteable, but that is not the point.

The point is, the British, no matter how colonial they have been in the past, will not have any sway over the way Spain decides to run it's corrupt regime.

If Gordon Brown was ever to suggest to Sr Zapatero that Spain is corrupt at a G8 meeting, I`m sure Sr Z will quite simply point to the corruption in Westminster regarding MP's allowances.!!, bugging of telephone calls, G20 police corruption and lies, cash for questions, cash for honours and so on, to name just a few.

As regards to advice, well many people were advised by their brokers to invest in bank shares, or Bernard Madhoff sPonzi scheme. The simple fact is, if you can't afford to fight for your rights through litigation, then my advice to anyone is don't get involved in a market where you have only people making a living in that market to advise you.

I think anyone reading this forum for the first time is better advised to spend several months researching the market and then researching their chosen agent and lawyer, possibly making several trips on their own expenses before they chose to purchase or stay out of the market.

If goodstich and rob 6507 can honestly beleive that it is sensible to come out on a 3 day inspection trip and buy first time around, often without ever visiting Spain before, and then see those people as victims, then as Roberto put said,  if it's OK for people to behave so foolishly and expect others to protect them, why should anyone bother to be sensible anymore????

The couple who bought the Rusty Nail (back on topic) were nothing more than the typical type of buyer that bought in Spain over the past 10 years, I don't see them as victims of anyone but their own lack of common sense.

As I emphasised earlier, Spain is a dreadful place for consumer protection and justice (particularly for foreign buyers who don't speak the language) - So those who chose to buy in Spain knowing they are not in full control of their senses or actions are simply offering themselves up as victims to the system.

Do not buy in Spain if you fear you cannot handle a possible loss or protracted legal battle would be my advice today, that was the same 10 years ago and I can guarantee it will still be good advice 10 years from now.

We see enough regulation in the UK encroaching on our privacy which is supposed to protect the helpless, I for one don't want to see Spain become a nanny state, I left the UK to get away from it,  those who want cradle to the grave protection are better catered for in Britian, I suggest Spain is not your cup of tea.

like any "news" nothing likely to be good, that said I suppose Spain must sometime start to take notice of how others perceive it to be in relation to many areas

Come on guys!

In 2009, if you are sensible and go about buying in the same way as you would in UK then you will be OK

OK in the boom everyone seemed to go mad!!......but as someone has stated on EOS in some other post........the very large majority of buyers in Spain have been very happy with their purchase 

Spain is a modern EU economy and also so far its Banks seem to have come of better in the credit crunch than any other EU country..........Santander seems to have picked up a lot a cherries world wide and in UK...this does not happen if the financial base and legal base is not OK

Guys...our  legal system is slow and not always, some would say, often consumer orientated........UK you only go to court if you have a lot of money [ or legal aid !]...and our Banks are very tight and difficult when it comes to complaints and overcharging!

So the past problems have to be sorted and I hope the majority will be OK.......with the illegal builds in due course it does appear that the majority will be

But for the future...well there are just now some very good deals for life style buyers where large profits are not the priority...and for those say 60 + the clock is ticking [ like me] 

But again .....be sensible 

advisor

yes I think so.  Without taking notice and taking action, how on earth do they expect the change required for recovery?  The fact so many have been cheated must be sending out alarm signals, and those who take them as mostly fools really haven't got a grasp on the reality.

rowlandsbb, there are no good deals that anyone can be sure of yet. Spain's property market is yet to hit the bottom. The banks here in Spain are in denial, they are still hiding their losses. If you wish to buy in Spain to live, then there is no real problem with values as eventually in 5-10 years-time they will, might ,go up, but the system is still the same. Do not buy if you cannot afford to lose out legally or financially.

Just to prove a point, there is a thread further down in the chit-chat forum where a man has bought a new build property near Los Alcazares. A year or so later, he is telling someone on the thread who lives close to his property that the area is terribly run-down and scruffy!!!! He doesn't like the graffiti and broken bottles in the shabby village!!! He is asking why it can't be improved.

For heavens sakes, did he not notice how scruffy the village was before he paid his deposit, if he did, then did he think years of depravation and decay would be cleaned up before he took up residence in his new holiday home?????

This man has not done his research, just like 99.9% of those who claimed they were robbed by the Spanish!

I despair and will now move to another thread as those who are in denial they did anything wrong, will wish to spend another 7 years on these forums protesting their innocence, whilst the perpetually sympathetic encourage their sorrowful wailings!

Gillespie:

If you cannot see the difference between some-one not doing their research about the village they buy in & some-one who is conned out of their life savings by an agent/developer/lawyer (often in collusion with each other), then I'm truly sorry for you.

This has nothing to do with a colonial view, this is about a modern european state who has actively encouraged foreign buyers to 'invest' in Spain. This is about that state that does have laws to protect the consumer, not a nanny state, but then chooses not to enforce those laws.

I wouldn't buy on a 3-4 day inspection trip, but many, many people have & are happy with what they bought. My point is, it shouldn't be down to luck that they are satisfied.

If some-one buys & then discovers a problem with the village, well, yes that is about research.

I'm talking about illegal builds, corrupt town halls, corrupt & criminal lawyers, agents who lie in collusion with the developer.

There are fellow owners at La Torre who own (for the moment) several appartments, bought with mortgages, on the basis that they could be let for a large part of the year. It isn't working, you are lucky if you get 8 weeks a year, & that won't pay the mortgages. Yes, they were lied to, but they also didn't do their research. However, their properties are legal & were delivered on time.

You claim 99.9% of the unhappy buyers in Spain didn't do their research. ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. In my opinion, the vast majority of those who have problems are the ones who were lied to, who were conned. They have been naive, but that doesn't justify being ripped off!

Morerosado, you asked:

"So... in this case did you pass all our email addresses to a 3rd party, Justin ? if that was the case as someone did, obviously & it's annoyed many."

The email was sent by Eye on Spain.  Check the email address that it came from.  So it doesn't look like any email addresses were given to a third party here.  Justin maybe can clarify himself though?

David 

** EDITED - Just to clarify...we would NEVER pass on our email database to any third parties.  All emails we send come from us and NOT from a third part.  Justin **

"There are fellow owners at La Torre who own (for the moment) several appartments, bought with mortgages, on the basis that they could be let for a large part of the year. It isn't working,"

At the time they bought, it no doubt looked possible, there was a property boom going on around the world. What are you trying to say, that those agents who sold them their properties should not look at past figures, instead they should look into their crystal balls and forsee a world financial crisis????? Not even the messiah Vince Cable saw it coming.

I'm talking about illegal builds, corrupt town halls, corrupt & criminal lawyers, agents who lie in collusion with the developer.

I doubt you will find one single agent - Good or Bad, who particularly liked, colluded or planned some sort of scheme with developers. Agents don't, never did, or will ever see developers, builder or promotors as their friends, you were not an agent rob, take it from me, or any other agent, we, like you, do not consider ourselves their friends.

You claim 99.9% of the unhappy buyers in Spain didn't do their research. ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. In my opinion, the vast majority of those who have problems are the ones who were lied to, who were conned. They have been naive, but that doesn't justify being ripped off!

To slightly distort the original anecdote, "the willingness to beleive increases the more absurd the promises" or should I say "the rental yield" -  in the case of La Torre!!!. I suppose you take literally everything you are told by your boss, the TV commercials or when your children are weaving you a good excuse. I advise anybody to exercise their own judgment when making their decisions. It's a criminal act to claim such judgment when all goes well, then claim someone told you a lie when it all goes wrong.

"This has nothing to do with a colonial view, this is about a modern european state who has actively encouraged foreign buyers to 'invest' in Spain."

You are quite wrong there rob.

The Spanish property boom did not create the market, the market created the Spanish property boom. Justin would not have succeeded with this website if he had created it in 1995. He created it in 2004 because there was a market for it!!!

"you are lucky if you get 8 weeks a year, & that won't pay the mortgages."

Mmmm, I suspect you are a so called victim! What plan did you ...oh sorry your fellow owners have in place, just in case the agents didn't lie about the potential rental income, but instead a world financial crises took hold instead, either way, you would be a damn fool to mortgage yourself to the hilt in a falling market on agents advice or not.

I am beginning to see you as a failed speculator, I can't imagine you are crusading for a friend or neighbour who has over stretched themselves by buying in a falling market.

I have no sympathy for those who took on ludicrous mortgages for several properties, do they honestly beleive the mortgage rate can only go down and not up, do they really think that rental demand will increase even though thousands of people are buying property each year to rent to the same market, do they really think they are the only ones with the bright idea to do that???????

Did you beleive Gordon Brown had abolished boom and bust????