ITV show on the Costa Del Sol

Gillespie

What a horrible snobbish attitude you have towards working people. You have certainly confirmed my thoughts on the forum personalities!

so it sounds like estate agents of old were also hated for good reason!  I wonder how many had a sense of fair play or justice towards those tenants not so fortunate?.  A trait passed on from their delightfull bosses no doubt. 

The reason for most people disliking estate agents today is in my experience is greed, lies and  dishonesty.   Most  people of any class respect gains made through honest and fair means, hard work etc., not through bullsh*t and deception at any cost!   How many believe estate agent speak?.  Sad for the decent one's, but the industry as a whole (much like Spains property industry) has well and truly shot itself in the foot, and does not command trust or respect.

" I wonder how many had a sense of fair play or justice towards those tenants not so fortunate?."

Would you be so generous goodstich if you had a tenant who didn'y pay their rent??? Are you saying if the rent isn't paid then the owners should just walk away, I suggest you take that up with rob6507 a property landlord.

"What a horrible snobbish attitude you have towards working people. You have certainly confirmed my thoughts on the forum personalities!"

You have the uncanny ability to constantly refer to personalities as opposed to facts goodstich. I don't know how to assess a personality via a forum, I only look at the content of their post, I expect most of us here on EOS would be quite suprised and wrong about each other were we to meet up.

"The reason for most people disliking estate agents today is in my experience is greed, lies and  dishonesty."

I would expect that from almost any industry or profession, such as Antiques dealers, jewellers, car dealers, local government employess, doctors dentists the list is endless and estate agents are no worse or better. I think I might join a soft drinks forum and complain that "Red Bull doesn't give me wings"!

"Sad for the decent one's, but the industry as a whole (much like Spains property industry) has well and truly shot itself in the foot, and does not command trust or respect."

It wouldn't do any good goodstich, after all you already have a low regard for estate agents in the UK, I can't imagine you came to Spain with an open mind about agents here!!

Gillespie

I come from a farming/gamekeeping background. I know land owners have a job to do, but he way many wealthy land owners treat tenants and workers is often pretty bad today that alone before workers rights were considered normal. rob6507's situation is not really a comparison.

As for personalities. I think it's fairly easy to work out, by attitudes to those wronged and those responsible for the hardship.

Estate agents in my experience are never compared to doctors or dentists in any shape or form, least of all in trust!  Pyramid sales, Double glazing or Second hand cars are more likely!

Like most I have a low regard for many agents (not all) through my experience and the experience of those I trust.

Getting back to the thread. I think unless a 'name & shame'  show goes ahead, along with people who followed the rules and were just cheated, then it  probably wouldn't have much impact?

"Getting back to the thread. I think unless a 'name & shame'  show goes ahead, along with people who followed the rules and were just cheated, then it  probably wouldn't have much impact?"

Naming and shaming has been about for several years in this industry, the problem there is that most of the deceptive operators who were involved have long since left Spanish property and are now in other industries or back in their old ones.

It's a case of shutting the stable door after the hoses has bolted, but would still be happy to see it go ahead.

"I come from a farming/gamekeeping background. I know land owners have a job to do, but he way many wealthy land owners treat tenants and workers is often pretty bad today that alone before workers rights were considered normal."

There were many bad tenants too, I worked with a geneaologist for several years (as a hobby, I like history) we researched families for people in Canada, Australia etc. We un-earthed lot's of details about why the members of their families were cleared off the land, some of them were perpetual criminals, poachers and often murderers of women and children. Local assizes records are available and the litany of crimes from these people were far more crude and anti/social than we see today.

The simple fact is no one side is more righteous than the other.

"As for personalities. I think it's fairly easy to work out, by attitudes to those wronged and those responsible for the hardship."

I can only suggest that is because you look no further than face value, that's why people believe glossy brochures, that's why people hang on the every word of a silver tongued salesperson. They tend not to want to delve deeper and avail themselves of more facts.

"Estate agents in my experience are never compared to doctors or dentists"

That's probably because you or your family has never been a victim of  Beverley Allitt, Colin Norris,  Anna Pou, Cheri Landry, Lori Budoor  and Harold Shipman to name a tiny few.

I'm sure if you went on the forums and told their victims the innocent killings of their family and children is nothing compared to Ocean Estates misselling apartments, you would get short shrift. What I am saying is there are rogues in all trades, not just estate agencies.

"Like most I have a low regard for many agents (not all) through my experience and the experience of those I trust."

Do you really know many estate agents goodstich!

At the peak, there were 240,000 registered estate agents, I knew about 150 of them and I never saw any of them as doing anything but decent job, they seemed to be quite proud of their personal reputations. I heard of a few, most of them in the CDS who were less scrupuolous, but they were in their dozens not 240,000!

I think you lack a little discernment when it comes to opinions goodstich. I am a little conserned that too many un challenged opinions on those lines mis represent the reality of the Spanish property industry. All I am trying to do is keep the balance so that anyone new to these forums can see the facts from both sides.

If 99% of them go with your views goodstich, then that's fine by me as long as they have seen in print an alternative view nearby.

I have also made sure of saying that in almost every post I have made here that the Spanish system of justice and redress are nothing short of disgusting, I 100% beleive that. All I have tried to do is highlight to people they will get little sympathy or fair treatment if anything goes wrong, which I think is accurate.

We are not too far apart in our opinions, it's just that I cannot bear one sided threads or debates, no one learns from those.

"I worked with a geneaologist for several years (as a hobby.....)"

Is it just me, or is it possibly that this thread is getting way too heated? Maybe it just needs cooling off a bit and I'm searching for something more lighthearted, but when I read that the first time, I swear I read it as "I worked with a gynaecologist for several years, as a hobby".

Hiya Roberto, well all I can say is you see what you want to see

Honestly it-s not getting heated at all. It-s a very good debate, with probably quire a few following but not so many taking part.

If I were Justin or Techno, I wouldn't know whether to move this thread to "Agents fight back" or "Jokes in here please" ...I don't envy them their job

Dear All,

I for one have enjoyed hearing informed comment from experienced people in the "business".

It is sometimes difficult to put aside one's own prejudices gained from perhaps limited experience. I really believed that the UK share of the market was very high. Gillespie tells us it is only 1.74%, therefore more or less insignificant. Bit of a shock, very hard to accept, but he must know.

For example, doctors in Harley Street and Engineers working for loss adjusters hardly seem to practice other than for Insurer employers, producing dodgy reports against claimants. Whilst I have met quite a few loss adjuster engineers and have little regard for most of them, they are not all the same, but money does exert huge pressures.

One case of a chap with a shattered lower leg was told by his hospital consultant that he faced a lifetime disability with growing arthritis, only to then listen to an eminent HS doctor tell the judge "Oh no, it may trouble him from time to time but he will manage well".

Certainly the bitterness of being a fraud victim is hard to take but it should not prejudice you against all estate agents.

My particular problem with some of what Gillespie says is :-

"I can only suggest that is because you look no further than face value, that's why people believe glossy brochures, that's why people hang on the every word of a silver tongued salesperson. They tend not to want to delve deeper and avail themselves of more facts."

The sales pitch at an exhibition is given by a whole team including mortgage broker and lawyer as well as the developer and agent. Given that it is off-plan and they all endorse each other as experienced professionals with longstanding trade and reputations. You delve into the site, the brochure and another completed development. What more can you delve into???

Answers please as always

Regards

Norman

The number of us Brits owing homes in Spain has been put at anywhere between 400,000 and 1.5 million.  Yet another "Holiday homes from Hell" on the telly tonight stated it was 800,000 so I guess you could just pick a number and report it as true but I think some of those figures include the total number of Brits and not just those owning homes (1 million Brits, 2 per household makes it half a million homes actually owned.)

Spain has a population of 41 million so that would be about 2 and a half percent being Brits if you take the highest figure bandied about. 

There are about 50,000 Spaniards living in the UK and if you include the Spanish population from countries outside Spain it comes to around 250,000 (Colombians numbering almost the same as Spaniards).  I wonder if that lot complain about not getting Spanish TV in the UK?

So the Spanish population UK is only around 0.1% of the total. 

(OK, I know it was off topic but getting a bit bored with the arguments and counter arguments on this thread.  It would really interest me to know how many of us who have bought in Spain are happy with the way everything went as opposed to the vociferous ones for whom it didn't go right).

Oh, and still off topic (just a tad) that programme tonight also showed Brits in Cyprus who had been ripped off when they bought homes there (from a Brit estate agent - quelle suprise).  This guy had sold them off-plan properties and took and average of 50 grand from each of them netting him something like 3 million quid.  Apart from a cleared plot of land (now overgrown) and a concrete base, nothing has ever been built and the guy has done a Lord Lucan on them.

Even more off topic (but Cyprus has been brought up several times) as I lived there for 15 years I can tell you it isn't the land of milk and honey that those who go for a week or two think it is.  Water cuts, sticking loo paper in a bucket cos the drains block, getting bills for "finished property taxes" etc.  Ever wondered why most of the flats in Cyprus still have metal rods sticking out the tops?  It''s so the owners can claim the buildings aren't finished yet and they don't have to pay completion taxes.  Of course, the government is cracking down on this and Brits buying there have been landed with bills for thousands as completion tax.  It's also still a divided country and several cases have already been brought in the North (Turkish bit) by Greek Cypriots and holiday home owners have been ordered to pay compensation to the families of those forced out in 1974.  Wait until Turkey joins the EU and the Northern bit becomes legit and all the Turks who were forced out in 1974 start claiming their land back. 

Me?  I'm going back to sit on my verandah and contemplate my navel for a few weeks.  If the grandkids (who are coming over as well) let me, I might even open a bottle or two of Vino Tinto and dangle my feet in the piscina.  Have fun!!

Gllespie

I will always back those wronged by people with little or no integrity. That point is central to everything I feel. On reading back your posts to myself and others whom I feel share that opinion, it's clear we will never agree. I have run my own business working with the public for nearly 20 years. My initial views on people seldom let me down, I take nothing at face value, but recognise certain traits a mile away.  Justice for those wronged is the only fair way in my opinion, not blame.

As has been said, mistakes or being naive is not a crime, I feel our main difference is on that train of thought.  

Dear All,

it is a very common misconception on this forum that the foreign buyer is a large and important part of the Spanish economy, which of course it cannot be, if the percentage is so small.

Perhaps it is, or was a bigger slice of the new build sector if separated out????

My only problem with Spain was the fraud against me perpetuated by the group of four who acted in consort to steal my deposit, with the chief architect being, in my mind, the lawyer. He was charging me directly professional fees for his services in addition to whatever kick-back he was getting from the developer.

Given the circumstances outlined what further precaution could have been taken??????

Once again, answers please.

Regards

Norman

As to my view of Cyprus for one recent week, I did not see many flats at all, the new build seemed to be all houses with pools in the garden (villas), no flats with unfinished top floors and generally nothing to complain about, though the "no paper down the loo" rule was in evidence. One wonders what part of the drainage system is at fault, surely not the domestic pipework, perhaps it is at the treatment centre? Unless their recycling ideas are in advance of our own here??? We were warned that topping up the pool might be a problem if the water was cut off, but it never happened, though everyone must experience it at some time because every house had a large water tank on the roof. The chap at the mountain winery told us that there were three desalination plants under construction to augment the tanker supplies. I saw no milk and honey flowing anywhere.

Just recent information that is all.

This message was last edited by normansands on 15/07/2009.

Dear B-52,

thank you for your help, it is very good to read your input and gain some insight.

However I am afraid that I have misled you with the use of the term "architect" we sometimes use the term to mean the person chiefly responsible, rather than the building designer.

Off-Plan property sales are a fraud if the developer takes deposits for a paper scheme off of potential buyers, then instructs the architect/building designer and the building contractor to build something different or less valuable than that which the potential buyer has reserved. Then refuses to return the deposit.

That is a common complaint.

The lawyer, Maria says that "everything promised by the developer in the offer including all that is in the brochure must be provided" otherwise the contract is legally void and all money plus interest should be returned.

That is exactly what a reasonable person would expect, do you agree?

Personally, I have travelled through Spain a few times but never stayed or lived in a city there, just through the countryside and on the coast.

As to the agents involved, I would guess only, but would suspect that those criticised were often or perhaps mostly British.

Regards

Norman

normansands

I might be wrong , but I think you are talking to the idiot Jim Allen who was banned from this site some time ago  for  lies, rubbish, and upsetting people.  He goes under the name of Just Dan, just Frank, tree, alan thornton and a host of other names. (B-52 probably being the latest?) on this and the SPI forum.  He posted this very same info'  (he gave you two posts ago) below, under the name of 'tree' on the SPI forum yesterday.   His style is always similar. Starts off sounding ok, then just posts rubbish and insults spelt very badly when replied too!  He is not Spanish, he is a pathetic English ex-agent who worked for a UK company operating in Spain, now under investigation for fraud. I will report this to Justin.  If proved wrong I will obviously apologise.

•Increase of foreigner population: Period (98 to 06) from 1,6% to 9,9% of the total population.
•Increase of jobs (legal market): Period (01 to 08 ) 3.716.000 total jobs.
•Total jobs lost (legal market): Crisis period (2009) -6,6%.
•Increase of GDP: Period (01 to 08 ) 27%, (55% of it to the Service Sector, 12% to the construction sector (2/3 to the property sector),…).
•Not residents investment in the property market (Banco de España 2007): 5.662 millions Euros. 1,7% of the total market.
•Spaniards investment in the property market abroad (Banco de España 2007): 3.107 millions Euros.
 

Hi my name is chimps .Long Story

Assuming this poster is all of those mentioned

I do hope that the poster is right as its seems there will be lots of appologising to do. WHOW ?

Just interested in what B52 had to say having property in Spain it was  a change to see someone posting from Spain regarding Spain

If he is one and all.  Why bother .?

B52 ? Alan Thornton/Just Dan/Just Frank. Come out from behind that Tree ?

new poster.......WHOW?............i wonder?

Dear goodstich,

thank you, I have in the past asked who just dan was and questioned his "commercial" status, he clearly had an influence in trying to persuade people to complete on unsatisfactory off-plan properties, then to make the best of things by carrying out works and repairs themselves that the developer had failed to do. He had some support from misguided people who wanted to get stuck in with the "Wally" syndrome, also the would-be "flippers" who wanted nothing negative posted in case it prejudiced their chances.

In this case, if it is he, he has not done much harm since he has only tended to confirmed some facts posted by Gillespie.

I regard good information as all, regardless of where it comes from.

Money may be the root of all evil, but why anyone, no matter how low their IQ, should be derided when they have been cheated out of it, is something of a rather distasteful mystery to me.

Regards

Norman

Me or B52 ?

Hello to you as well? Welcome to the forum why dont you.

One and one makes two new posters unless B52 is him and me being a she is also him .

Dont think I want to play continue this line of conversation..

Think its best you dont reply as you may just have enough problems making your appologise if this B57 if he does not reply.

Goodstich44:

You are right, it is tree!

Dear Techno,

this thread and the forum seems to be at risk - can you help?

Norman

Both EOS and SPI have been infiltrated by "individuals" intent on destroying the forums.

B52,

If you want to improve your English why choose this website, this forum and this particular thread. ???  Don't they have enough people in your part of Spain  to "chat" in English with? Why write in Spanish?

Tish

indeed they have. Question is why?  Are they just sad individuals who will stoop to any level to get attention, even negative?,  or is it something more sinister from those who are not happy about some ugly truths coming out that they feel could damage them in some financial way? .  Could it be a bit of both?