Confirmed: Buyers deposits for Herrada del Tollo, San Jose covered by generic guarantee policy

Tony,

It is nearly a month passed since the HDT wanted our replies. Do you have any idea when they intend to communicate with us again and what is the likely plan ?

The silence from them does not give me any confidence and therefore, does not help in building bridges !

If they started to be more open and transparent then the need to force the matter may reduce !

 

Hi rjmderry,

Sorry for the delay in getting the SARC update report out, I have been very busy with work and NHS stuff but it will be out soon.

Regarding HdT communicating directly with purchasers, that was discussed at the meeting (which was also atteneded by Paul Hastings, who represents the SJI purchasers) and I even 'phoned today and asked when they were going to email out to every one thier official update. I have been told that it should start going out tomorrow and we will consult with the membership about how frequently they would like HdT to send out a communication to them and put this to HdT.

Wishing you all the best

Tony

 

This message was last edited by TonyMal on 12/04/2011.

Dear Tony

What method are HdT and SJI choosing to communicate with their clients. You havnt mentioned this in your posting.

I havnt had so much as a we are having a spot of bother from them, or a sorry we have been quiet for a while

They havnt a clue how to run a business and simply will not change, regardless of how many phone calls you make

Sorry but you are not going to get your house or your money from these people

Dear Brian,

i am going to have a real good try at getting not only my property but also properties and money back for those who want it. I refuse to let my money or any one elses disappear and then rely on some costly legal process to try to get something back. So I will carry on being a pain and pushing HdT to deliver on the proposal.

Re the communication they are going to send out it is going to be via email & i believe also placed on their HdT website.I know that some peoples email address's were wrong from the emails that came into SARC and after asking permission of the person we gave their email details to HdT for them.

As for running a buisness, that is another topic that has been had with HdT.

Wishing you all the best and I hope that at long last they have found where your money had gone and that you manage to get hold of it.

Tony

In the meantime I await contact from them, and from my first lawyer concerning recent communications.

By the end of this year I will no doubt have 2 lawyers, unsatisfactory communication, no house, no money back. And very probably the people responsible will still trade on.

The class action discussed on here could be the only way to resolve this, I keep an open mind.

 Dear Tony:

You are already convinced that the class action doesn't make sense to you, and no matter what I say or suggest, you come back with new concerns & questions. I do respect it, but my opinion is that you may also respect the decision of the purchasers who are not happy with the current scenario and want to try an alternative way.

The fact that you don't believe in the court's proceeding as a way to get deposits back doesn't mean the case is silly or unreasonable.

On the other hand, you are not a lawyer or a solicitor as far as I know, but you advise people like if you were, questioning the advise of pofessionals like if you knew more than them. We are talking about a serious and complicated legal issues which are even unknow for lawyers who aren't familiarized with this legal questions, but you pretend to act like if you know about it, when you don't. So I would advise you not to disregard the opinion and advise for other people and be more open minded.

About your questions: I haven't seen the documents in full, but I have read many general policies and their wording is always very similar. So I am not concern about finding restrictions or conditions I did was aware of. I want to get them, first of all, because I must enclose copy to the claim and, sencond of all, because the claim will be better as much information as we know. The file a preliminary enquire is not for free, no matter were you go. A claim must be filed, the Bank can be opposite, I have to attend a court hearing...I do not work for free, like you, I guess, and I am sure you don't like people to tell you or suggest you how to do your job.

The question of the payment already make by the Bankto buyers against the general garantee limit amount has been replied and explained on previous post I have made. I would advise you to have a look on them. This question is also explained on my comments to the Sentence from the TRibunal Superior de Justicia de Navarra. Limited amount doesn't apply to purchasers because they weren't involved in the negotiation of the general guarantee, the purchasers can't waive to their rights (art 7th Act 57/68), and the limit amount involves a waive of rights forbidden by law.

I can't commit a 100% success rate, if that's what you want to hear. Any good lawyer won't commited, even for a simple and clear case.

In my opinion, it doesn't make sense for me to keep on posting replies to your posts, because, as said before, you don't want to lisen, because you have already taken a decission. I respect it. Please respect me, and the purchasers who think in a different way than yours.

Best wishes & Good luck

 

Guadalupe Sánchez

GMLEGALEXPERTS

Excellent post Guadalupe.

I respect your efforts to take the time to reply to Tony in a polite and informed manner, most of us have given up on trying to put over an alternative opinion to him.

Ken.  

Dear Guadalupe,

Thank you for your reply I am afraid that you are making an incorrect assumption and obviously did not fully read or understand what I asked of you or posted. Firstly I must point out that I am not advising any one to take any action one way or the other, it is up to each individual to do as they wish. However, what I am saying is that prior to making such a decision, particularly whem it has financial implications and possible negative as well as positive outcomes , that a fully informed decision should be made taking into account all of the information and probailities.

In your reply you have not answered the issue of the 65% liabilty that is assigned to HdT by the court, what the applicable value of the BG is, how much of the value has allready been expended on reimbursment of deposits, what percentage of a deposit is realisticaly recoverable, what is the on going cost and time scale if an appeal process is instigated nor the possabilty of if unsuccesfull the issue of the other parties legal costs having to be covered etc?

You are also quite correct that i am not a lawyer, i am a scientist and deal with logic, facts and probabilites plus I am a national representative who attends meetings at goverment in the UK and deal with regulation. I am also the Chair of SARC the purchasers group and I am asking these questions to enable our members to be more informed and I have an obligation to be sceptical; as I and my SARC executive colleagues are aware of how some solicitors have let  some HdT purchasers down and cost them a lot of money.

Now if you wish to canvas a course of action on an open forum of which I am a member because, I too have money in HdT I think it only appropriate that you are questioned. I find it purturbing still that you have not read the full document not quoted any other court actions in which this approach has been sucessful, but still wish for payment from people, who may be desperate to get a positive conclusion. You say you can not gaurantee sucess but it would be nice if you could give probabilty and give the wider implications to people and the reason I ask you to do this is because it was you who put this in to an open forum not I.

 Furthermore, I really do feel that if you are so certain that when you recieve and read the full document that it will not negatively impact on your position that you either get it and read it prior to taking any money or gaurantee to refund purchasers their money, if it turns out that the case is not supported by the contents of the document.

Yet again I state openly that on a risk benifit analysis you have not given enough information and therefore I can not support such action  but it is up to each purchaser to do what is best for them but to do so with their eyes wide open and with the full understanding that this action does not have a gaurantee from you to succeed.

Wishing you all the best

Tony 

 

 

This message was last edited by TonyMal on 13/04/2011.

This message was last edited by TonyMal on 13/04/2011.

This message was last edited by TonyMal on 13/04/2011.

This message was last edited by TonyMal on 13/04/2011.

This message was last edited by TonyMal on 13/04/2011.

This message was last edited by TonyMal on 13/04/2011.

Hi Tony

If you have questions that are being asked on behalf of others, you perhaps are representing others if you want to inform people, try and ask your questions in one or two paragraphs, going on at length is only stopping any meaningful dialogue, unless that's your aim. .

I would like to get back to basics please. There is a class action of a new direction, it costs 700 to join and nothing more until it's finished. It will be contractual and if it wins it will cost nothing, if it fails you could be 5 grand deeper in the hole. It may take around 2 years, That's the facts.

If you stay as you are you could get 65% of your money back in 5 years or a property in a smaller development in an unspecified time. Your builder will not communicate the true state of affairs and could very likely go bust leaving you with nothing.

I'm not a scientist, but I did study some physics and I remember that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The class action at 700 is a gamble. If after that payment you don't want to go on, write it in the contract perhaps.

Maybe sarc can negotiate a rate, or choose one contract as an exemplar if you want to ask any questions Tony, do it in private from now on, I don't want to read 10 paragraphs of drivel to find one that's useful
It's not scientific is it.

Hi Briando,

Thank you for your remarks and I must point out that you are not a SADM purchaser  and try not to be so crass with you remarks.

The questions and points that I make are very valid as there is no gaurantee of a postive out come given or any wider information that would be necessary before parting with money. So if a company & yes it is a company, is proposing a course of action and is asking for money then they should provide full information as to the probabilty of a positive outcome and the amount of money to be recouped.

I think you need to get over the old antagomism as this is purely to do with will it work, how much would it net, what if it does not work? What is the amount of money that is covered by the document and any limitations placed upon it and also is it probable that the financial institution left themselves open to such action or would not claim that due to a  COURT ruling that HdT is liable for 65% of the debt?We all know how slippery banks can be and how aggresively they defend their assets

So you fail to understand that I would applaud and be really pleased if suddenly we could all get money back from the banks but I am very dubious that such an action can work. I am pleased that you are happy to gamble €700 but many can not afford to do the same and some may not realise the implications of legal action. Has been explained how costs will be awarded by the court if the case is lost?

So as for asking questions, I shall continue to do so in the public domain as commenced by Gaudalupe and do not ever try to tell me what to do.

All the best

Tony

 

Hi Tony

I will try and keep us down to a few lines, thanks for being more condensed in your response.

First answer, I have never said I was a buyer of SADM, this solicitor originaly posted about SJI and any of this discussion is in my interests, because they are concerning the same generic guarantee and the same bank account.

Secondly, Im not antagonised at all, and my remarks are not crass, there may be a bit of humour from time to time, but never crass.

The next paragraph about you applauding dosnt make sense, I cant answer that because I dont understand.  Please dont try to explain, im not interested.

Thirdly, I havnt said if I am going to gamble 700 euros, or if I am joining any action, I am suggesting everyone keeps an open mind and be carefull with their money before committing.  Why you have to try and pigeonhole me into your way of thinking is not clear to me, but it does make me suspicious.  And it certainly is not scientific.

Last point.  I am not telling you what to do, when i use phrases like, perhaps you could, or maybe you can, these are suggestions that may help in sticking to the points and getting away from other things that dont matter as much.  I have to say as an opinion that you dont seem to read and digest things well, you seem to make statements about what you perceive, rather than the facts.  I do believe thats dangerous when your dealing with matters of this importance.

But thats all I will say, and its longer than I wanted it to be, but lets work on keeping postings shorter please.  Its important stuff is this.

 

This message was last edited by briando55 on 13/04/2011.

Dear Guadalupe

First of all, I would like to thank you for offering some hope to buyers at Santa Ana del Monte who do not want to wait 5 years to get their money back.  I think it is good to have some debate on this though, because so many of us have waited so long for our properties and of course spent a lot of money in the process.  Some of us (myself included) cannot afford to lose any more money, otherwise I would have been eager to sign up with you and pay 700€.  I do have a couple of short questions which I hope you will be willing to answer on the forum as it may help others in the same situation.

1.  We all know that things in Spain take a long time, especially where the courts are concerned .  I see that two years has been mentioned, but is this the best case scenario?  If the banks appeal against any decision made by the courts, could this drag on for years and, if so, what is the worst case scenario?

2.  My understanding is that the court in Alicante agreed with the figure of 65% of deposits to be returned to buyers, and in fact the creditors signed up to this including the banks concerned.  Is it likely that another court would go against this figure and insist on 100%?  I know it is coming from a different source i.e. the banks and not HdT, but is it possible that the court will decide that the buyers should wait to see if they get the agreed 65% from HdT before taking action to get 100% from the banks?

3.  If the banks win the case (and let's be honest, they do have the financial clout!), will your company and your clients have to pay all the costs and, if so, how much money are individuals likely to lose on top of their original 700€?

We are fortunate because we now have our house near Santa Ana del Monte - even though it was purchased from a different developer! - but we are still keen to get something back, even if it isn't the whole of our deposit.  As we are now retired, we really cannot afford to lose any more money and I suspect that many other people out there feel the same way. 

Good luck to those of you out there who have the money to spend on this action, and please keep us informed of the outcome.

Sue  

I think it may be wise to ask some questions directly to the lawyer, on a private message, I have experience that she will reply.  Also ask for a table of fees to get to know exactly what your letting yourselves in for.

You need to be properly informed, and not caught up in a misleading debate on here, I am finding that, as ever in Spain, things are not always as rosy as it appears.

Get the information about your case, it dosnt cost anything, and then air any specific views on here is my advice, for what its worth.

To reply one of the TonyMal's and Suemac question:

The class action is to claim Bank's liability for damages, because they should have provided buyers bank guarantees by the moment the contracts were signed. The action is not against HDT or San Jose.

It is not relevant that the Mercantile Court of Alicante has settle that HDT must refund 65% deposit to buyers, as agreed by the majority of the creditors. As the action is against the Banks, their liability was born in the moment they should have provided the guarantee to buyers (when deposits were paid). Because Banks did not meet their obligation, a damage has been caused to purchasers, and the value of the damage is the whole deposit plus legal interest, because this is what they would have got if they would have hold a bank guarantee. 

One thing is the commitment that HDT has now with purchasers  (to pay 65% within 5 years) and somenthing completely different is for how much is the Banks' liability: 100% on deposits plus legal interest.

If finally we win, and the Bank refunds deposits to purchasers, Bank will have an action against the builder for the total credit paid to buyers, increased by the interest and comissions agreed on the generic guarantee they signed.

 

Regards,

 

Guadalupe Sánchez

GMLEGALEXPERTS

Hi guys,

I'm away now on Holiday but thought I'd better just post this as I have had a Google alert thread sent to me from:

http://www.lawbird.com/wordpress/tag/herrada-del-tollo-sl/   which is posted below:

It rather galvanizes matters I think and does show that Guadalupe is definatley on the right track!!!

What say you all now disbeliving SARC type people!

We took some chances and it worked out. A claim filed against the guarantor of the Herrada del Tollo S.L., developer for Santa Ana del Monte (and who we jumped over since they’d filed for voluntary insolvency), has been resolved favourable for the claimant. From a procedural point of view, it is an interesting case for it was not heard given that, legally speaking, the issues at stake were purely juridical and therefore, no evidence was to be proposed for admittance. In other words, there was no evidence of probative value in dispute and consequently, the pre-trial was enough to fix the object of the case and conclude that there was no possible settlement.

Hi All,

It makes an interesting read and I do wonder how SGR are going to deal with this? I hope it works out OK and please nweatheral, can we drop  confrontational comments, we are all in the same boat and there are some members of SARC who desperately want their money back. Our only concern is that they do not loose any more money.

All the best

Tony

 Thank you for your post, Nigel.

I hope this post helps people to understand that the case is very strong and to take the risk (spend € 700) is worthier.

I also hope that people like TonyMal stop saying that some lawyers, like me, are just encouraging people to join a claim which is going nowhere, just to make money.

 

Regards,

Guadalupe Sánchez

GMLEGALEXPERS

This certainly makes interesting reading, though I am still a bit nervous about the possibility of losing 700€ or more! 

Guadalupe, thank you for answering one of my questions earlier.  Are you able to respond to my other two questions?  Just so that people have a better understanding of the risks, as well as the benefits, if they wish to pursue this option.

Regards.

Sue

Gaudalupe,

I asked questions  to try to gauge the validity of such an action and you said that you can not gaurantee a win and still say that it is worth taking a risk. It is a shame that you did not find this example that Nigel has posted. My only question now is what response are SGR going to give to this ruling? I do hope it works out & wish you good luck

All the best

Tony

 

This message was last edited by TonyMal on 13/04/2011.

It is a development that SGR have been told to pay though Tony.

It at least turns tables and has the underwriters having to defend their malpractice, it looks to be a difficult position for them to defend, or come back from.  It will be interesting to see if they form an action against the contractor now.

I am beginning to feel like we have some representation in the making, rather than going through the motions.  Its a better feeling than I have had for the last four years or so.

Even when times were good the builder couldnt deliver, so its not going to be any different in hard times, especially if there are actions in the background.  I feel they are in a difficult position, regardless of what SGR decide to do.

They could even slip back into administration if they are threatened by action, thats wht they seem to prefer to do.  I cant see a bank backing them if they have a call on their finances.  And there wont be another SGR relationship.

So I cant see how they will be able to offer contracts to even us. 

Have a chat with them Tony, see what they have to say